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Thought I read something somewhere like:
the most common thing in the world is unapplied intelligence
Must be butchering it pretty badly if Google’s blank
This is so true, the modern education system (at least here in America) was designed to create wage slaves. Raise your hand to talk, and take a piss, never teach them anything useful like taxes, laws, or banking, make them just smart enough to fill out paper work. And the sad part is that it worked
second place or (second region from peak) is apparently a hard place to be.
in alternate mindsets, it’s all fine – you are what defines you.
I don’t see the parallel. Care to explain?
gifted people are gifted if you compare them with others (see how there’s a graph on the bottom right panel).
if you take out the comparisons, everything is all fine as individuals are who they decide themselves to be.
Classic first peak mindset right here.
Cool. I’m dumb. Please explain it to me.
As I’ve said before, G&T when you’re young means MANY G&T’s when you’re older.
Eh ignoring the fact that someone with privilege doesn’t need to worry about g&ts at any age. As always, being skilled or talented is a necessity for the working class
Let’s not fall into some delusion that the ruling class is full of excellent or above average IQ/EQ people
They are talking about the alcoholic beverage in the second G&T
I know lol
What was the first G&T?
Sorry, I wasn’t in any gifted classes in school. My only talent was getting beaten by my siblings.
Gifted & Talented
Oooh. Sorry. I should have gotten that.
OK, I just had 5 Ginn tonics, how much more?
Skill issue
oh mighty, become my employer and bestow on me all the right skills that made you successful
oh mighty,
Missing noun.
Tell that to Ozymandias
Before or after looking at all his works?
After. It would be super rude to come all this way and not look at his words…
excuse me, kind noun, I’ll correct it in a jiffy
No because I don’t have skills nor am I successful.
“IQ” and other intelligence tests are incredibly flawed. The biggest issue is that intelligence is very hard to define. Not to mention the IQ test comes from racist origins and was used for immigration testing for a long time.
We know this, the issue is until a more comprehensive test comes around, the IQ test is the best we have, also measuring general pattern recognition can be pretty useful as a “quick and sweet” measure since pattern recognition is the base for all other forms of intelligence
Why do we even need such a test? It seems like you shouldn’t place people into arbitrary categories. Intelligence can’t really be defined. A test that looks for intelligence is always going to be biased and discriminatory.
It reminds me of social scoring and even of ethnic cleansing in the worse case. People shouldn’t have there lives defined by a test.
I can see where your coming from but i have to say, intelligence is definitely not arbitrary, it’s just very wide and can be difficult to define exactly. Kind of like consciousness, we know it exists but we can’t really place a finger on it
Some people are 100% stupider than others and some are definitely smarter than others. I’m sure we can all agree Einstein is smarter than a hair stylist, and while yes thats an extreme example, it’s necessary to get the idea across
The real issue of measuring intelligence (in my opinion) is that there’s so many different types of intelligence which is why the IQ test is flawed, it boils down hundreds of different spaces into a single number
I actually disagree with that. Why would Einstein be smarter than a hair stylus?
A man who single handedly created: Brownian movement, which helped prove the existence of atoms and molecules. Thequantum theory of light, which explained how light can be both particles and waves. Thespecial theory of relativity. Which explains that time and motion are relative to the observer. The link between mass and energy E = mc2, which also forms much of the basis for nuclear energy
This man basically discovered and explained the universe’s workings before we even had the technology to prove him right
… vs a person who makes hair look pretty
I have to ask. What makes you think we’re all the same intelligence?
Because if we did consider everyone the same, it would take away credit and undermine the people who discovered all these amazing accomplishments. It’s the same reason we don’t view Olympic athletes the same as college athletes, they simply aren’t the same. Removing people’s uniqueness doesn’t create equality, it just creates a depressing dystopia where everything is the sameness, nothing has character, and nothing is unique. Kind of like the beginning of Fahrenheit 451 where everything is black and white because God forbid someone has a different favorite color
Instead we should be celebrating the fact that there are people like Einstein and inspire to be like them, and work towards that level of intelligence. Not pull them down because we aren’t on their level
This is stupid. Noting that there is a bell curve of some innate talent we label intelligence is like noting there’s a bell curve on a person’s height.
My point was what makes a person intelligent? Einstein is a particularly interesting example as he failed school. He also had a very bad sense of style and to my knowledge was not good at cutting hair. In that respect, a good hair dresser is far superior. They are way better at being a hair dresser than Einstein.
We all have talents. It just is a matter of finding what we love. Also it helps to we willing to learn as you can be as smart as can be but still be lazy.
The reason for testing is that people on either end of the bell curve need to be educated differently to the people in the middle and to each other
Sure.
What makes you think that the hair stylist doesn’t have a lot of “innate talent” that just never presented itself due to environment and circumstance?
Fine. It’s not even a concession to say that people are a mix of nature and nurture. But people assume that saying there exists such bell curve for intelligence is the same thing as saying that people’s worth is on a bell curve, and no one is suggesting that (or at least I’m not).
It’s ok to say that there exists natural differences between people.
can confirm did well on an iq test whilst absolutely sloshed in school
Why then does IQ predict success?
It very much doesn’t
Does it though?
Yes? There are correlations everywhere.
Did you miss the memo about correlation not being the same as causation?
Did you miss the one that defines the word “predicts”? Don’t feel bad, from this thread it seems you’re not the only one.
Are we going to get into arguing pedantries now?
Oh, I love this part.
… Just kidding. I’m out. Have a good day.
Ditto!
I imagine it’s because the attributes that IQ measure could be the same as we use to measure success.
Effectively if your test is based on the skills needed for STEM, and the STEM fields have jobs with high pay and respect, then you’re likely to be considered “successful”. But the same person could be awful at communication, politics, the arts, and just be ignorant at large to how the world works. They may even be hyper specialized to their field but lack the flexibility in their intelligence to understand other STEM fields (I hear physicists are guilty of this).
Another, simpler answer, could just be that already wealthy people have better access to stable education, so they were already successful in many ways.
Just to continue to throw wrenches into the preconceptions, let’s not forget that a huge part of what we consider success in the modern world can be attributed to emotional intelligence as much as spatial awareness and logic.
A lot of CEO’s and people who climb high in the world are excellent at understanding how others feel and using emotion to communicate, share and inspire people to follow. Sometimes it’s the only thing leadership figureheads even know how to do. It’s also very, very hard to manage teams effectively if you don’t have a good understanding of how people feel at different times, how best to address those feelings and an idea how to manage the emotional atmosphere in a workplace. Yes, having good logic and reasoning is massively important, but rarely alone.
Yep, I’m starting to see how useful studying psychology would have been.
I’m 15 years into a tech career and it’s becoming increasingly obvious that the hard problems are not usually tech problems…
It’s not psychology, it’s attentiveness.
I don’t know, I think there’s more to be said for actual experience and someone’s attitude more than education. Having a deep understanding of psychology can only help with analyzing issues and understanding people’s motivations, but there’s still going to be a disconnect from academic understanding of a subject, and actual experience and connection with a challenging area of learning.
Or to put it more simply, in my last job as a manager I hired two people who had psychology degrees or majors for a technical/data position on a team, hoping for the very same kind of understanding and empathy with each other that you would think an education in human psychology would provide, and those people turned out to have the most issues with others because of their own lack of real-world experiencing socializing and maintaining relationships with others.
can be attributed to emotional intelligence as much as spatial awareness and logic.
Even though popular culture likes to equate intelligence with lack of social intelligence and even outright autism, it’s more likely that an intelligent person is intelligent in all of these things.
Have you seen IQ tests? They are not exactly “based on the skills needed for STEM”.
Because it also correlates with parental wealth, better access to education, etc.
Kids with better off parents get better school/tutoring from a young age > get better IQ scores > go on to better colleges > have better creds and connections> success.
Intelligence has a genetic component. Smart parents tend to have smart kids. It’s not the only factor certainly, and it’s not clear how big of a factor it is, but it undoubtedly plays some role in it.
I don’t doubt that there is a factor but you’re clearly overestimating how much of a factor it is.
If two smart people have a kid and the kid grows up in poverty, they’re much less likely to grow to be “successful”.
What do you mean when you say that I’m “overestimating”? I’m asking this because I feel like you’re thinking that I’m claiming something I don’t think I’m claiming.
Well, you claimed that children of parents with higher IQ have more successful children.
I pointed out that this is largely due to social factors, to which you replied a non sequitur about how intelligence has a genetic component.
From that, a reasonable person would assume that you believe that genetics is a major component of IQ, and not just a small contributing factor.
Well, you claimed that children of parents with higher IQ have more successful children.
That wasn’t my first claim. My first claim was that IQ predicts success.
I pointed out that this is largely due to social factors, to which you replied a non sequitur about how intelligence has a genetic component.
Then I went here because you brought up parents. So not a non-sequitur but a specific reply to your comment.
From that, a reasonable person would assume that you believe that genetics is a major component of IQ, and not just a small contributing factor.
When I specifically said it’s not clear how big of a factor it is. So no, I don’t think a reasonable person would assume that.
Well the origins were laudable, it’s just that it was shortly thereafter extended for racist means. Binet and Simon wanted to see if they could devise a test to measure intelligence in children, and they ultimately came up with a way to measure a child’s mental age.
At the time, problem children who did poorly in school were assumed to be sick and sent to an asylum. They proposed that some children were just slow, but they could still be successful if they got more help. Their test was meant to identify the slow children so that they could allocate the proper resources to them.
Later, their ideas were extended beyond the education system to try to prove racial hierarchies, and that’s where much of the controversy comes from. The other part is that the tests were meant to identify children that would struggle in school. They weren’t meant to identify geniuses or to understand people’s intelligence level outside of the classroom.
This is a good and nuanced take, thank you for taking the time to write it down. Piggybacking on this, if anyone wants to dive more deeply into the subject of psychological measurement, there’s an excellent book by Derek Briggs about this: Historical and Conceptual Foundations of Measurement in the Human Sciences: Credos & Controversies.
I think labeling kids as slow can be problematic depending on the context. We are all good at different things. If a kid needs help in math get them help but don’t treat them as inferior. If a kid has no self worth then they have no motivation to get better. Separating them from there pears is incredibly humiliating and can cause trauma.
Anyway this is a very complex subject that goes far beyond the IQ test.
Yeah, in the '80s we called them “special”
Let’s not pretend verifiably ‘slow’ people with intellectual disabilities don’t exist please. Pretending these people don’t exist or acting like the severity of their symptoms aren’t absolutely something that they need help with doesn’t make these issues go away. It makes them worse. It hasn’t worked for any other issue where people didn’t want to call a spade a spade.
It hasn’t worked for any neurodivergent people for the last 40 years where parents and society wanted to pretend everyone was the same despite people drowning and needing help for fear of being ‘different’ or oh no their brain and body work fine no medications or doctors for us thanks!
Being different is okay. Everyone needs help in different ways. It’s shit like the above that causes these kids to think they are.
So just because they failed a test they now are condemned to be labeled as retarded?
I know multiple people who were told they were retarded back when they were in public school but they all went to college and were very successful. That doesn’t mean it came easy as learning can be harder for some people. What is important is that they had the drive to push though. I also know people who are supposedly smart who are terrible at making good choices.
It sounds like the tests confirmed they had IDs and got the help they needed.
This is exactly how it’s supposed to work lol.
The awwwwtism range
i think blue should be either extended or completely replace green, “excellence” is not given just because you’re smart
You don’t understand how much green sucks…
An intellectual disability is 2 standard deviations from the mean (that’s 30 points).
For someone that’s 100, about 2% of humans are 30 points lower than them.
If you’re at the tail of the green?
Congrats, about 84% of the world’s population is at least 30 points below you. For bonus points, you won’t even know your IQ because it’s like measuring a mile with a foot long ruler. You can get a guesseatimate, but to really measure it just isn’t worth it. A Wechsler would already take 4+ hours to get that high of a score.
It’s basically Idiocracy. And just like the movie, a lot of the time when you try to explain stuff that sounds basic “don’t use Gatorade on plants” you only get insults and get told plants crave electrolytes.
Like, people say people in green like drugs because of “novelty seeking behavior”…
It’s not that, it’s because living in Idiocracy fucking sucks, and there are a couple things that can be done to level the playing field, and most of them are pretty enjoyable too.
And it’s not even rare. A 145+ IQ is about 1 in 1200 people, that’s about as frequent as people who are trans.
oh i’m painfully aware of how much it sucks to be in the green, friend :| i am not a fan, so often i wish i was just fucking stupid. Grass greener, haha, on the other side and all, but fuck man, those people look so happy, or at least not outwardly miserable. I wish i could feel the same level of joy as a himbo/bimbo “discovering” that an essential oil or perhaps a pretty rock can cure them of everything and curse their enemies at the same time!
The drug thing is a “green” thing huh? lmao good to know. It is funny how drunk/high/tripping me is roughly the same as a sober average person, bit less agile physically of course but about as fast at thinking, kind of baffling how, unless i’m absolutely smashed, people don’t even realise that i’m under the influence of something
and yeah, living in this self destructive and hateful world is a nightmare. I can see so many ways in which things could get better for everybody, and yet they never do, and shit keeps getting worse. Cruelty seems to be the point. I could go on for a hot while about the state of the world and how being “diagnosed as smart” (how i call it) fucking sucks on so many levels, but i’d rather not make my day any worse, my mental health has been making sweet love to the bottom of the mariana trench lately, it seems.
Though the worst thing about being diagnosed as smart is either 1) congratulations! your fast brain can think of 20 things to be anxious about in 5s flat at any time of day! no you can’t control it fuck you or 2) the frustration you feel when something doesn’t make sense, in such a way that the only explanation seems to be that whoever was making the decisions was either plain dumb or intentionally an asshole, which isn’t a satisfying explanation at all
Oh hey, throw in some crippling depression and overwhelming cynicism and I’m there too.
I’m in this entire comment section and I don’t like it
School said I was gifted but I think I was just a big fish in a small pond.
“Gifted” in school basically just means “above average” and as we all know…
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
–George Carlin
“The Woods Would Be Very Silent If No Birds Sang Except Those Who Sang Best”
i mean, “gifted” is basically doublespeak for “on the neurodivergence spectrum” and society just fucking hates neurodivergent people.
It’s not really that we’re aware of our deficiencies, it’s that society makes us feel bad for things that are completely natural and should be viewed as sidegrades mostly.I see what you’re going for here, and I disagree.
You’re saying that “gifted” refers to someone who is neurodivergent. Implying that neurodivergent people are gifted. I assert that gifted people are more likely to be neurodivergent. Not the other way around.
Look, I know tons of people diagnosed with all sorts of neurodivergent brains who are pretty worthless when it comes to being “gifted”.
I do however, also know plenty of gifted people who have discovered that they are in fact, neurodivergent.
I’m just saying.
i’m not saying that neurodivergent people are “gifted”, i’m saying that the term “gifted” is a euphemism and i don’t like the term.
It’s a way to ignore the issue of people being different and needing individualized treatment, instead saying that they’re “gifted” as if they’re just blessed by god to do better in school, which is a toxic idea.
We shouldn’t call kids “gifted” and give them the next year’s textbook, we should recognize that it’s extremely likely they’re neurodivergent and need a diagnosis and different adjustments depending on the person. One person might just need a separate room to study in, one person might need permission to sit in the back with headphones on listening to music, one might need an extra teacher who personally helps them out.
I don’t follow this at all.
My son is in the gifted program. He is also one of the most socially intelligent people I’ve ever met. Makes friends easily, is a natural leader, shows kindness and acceptance towards all people, and adults frequently comment to me how mature he is when interacting with them. He is well accepted by society and moves around in it with ease.
I also think you’re missing the point. Are you familiar with the dunning Kruger effect? It’s the idea that smart people are better at recognizing their own shortcomings because they are smart, and less intelligent people aren’t smart enough to realize all of their shortcomings.
shows kindness and acceptance towards all people, and adults frequently comment to me how mature he is when interacting with them
None of this is rare for people on the spectrum.
Makes friends easily, is a natural leader
Contrary to popular belief, autistic people don’t have trouble to make friends on a vacuum, they have communication problems with non-autistic people. If your kid is on the gifted program…
Don’t take any of this as offense. I’m autistic and I’m finding my way to thrive in life. It just would have been easier if I had been given the appropriate resources instead of being discriminated against.
None of this is rare for people on the spectrum.
As I said to the other poster, it’s not me who said this but them who implied it. They were the one who said society hates neurodivergent people. I’m pointing out that my supposed neurodivergent (why isn’t addressing their claim that only neurodivergent people can be gifted?) child is very socially competent and well accepted by society
That being said, this kid is not neurodivergent. My other one, definitely. Smart and sociable, but ADHD.
I was just mostly addressing the fact that none of the reasons for which you claim one of your kids isn’t neurodivergent is actually a valid refutation.
At no point did I say my kid is or is not neurodivergent, until this last post. The poster I was responding to was wrong either because being gifted does not mean being neurodivergent, or because being neurodivergent is not hated by society.
being neurodivergent is not hated by society.
Neurodivergent people are mistreated by society though, regardless of if we are hated. Some neurodivergent people very much are looked down upon, bullied, and face massive discrimination too. It depends a lot on what kind of neurodivergence you have and how it presents to other people.
society just fucking hates neurodivergent people.
Let’s keep in mind what I was initially responding to.
Hi! Assuming that neurodivergent people can’t be socially intelligent is kind of offensive, neurodivergence is a wide spectrum and it manifests differently for everyone.
Also, just because someone seems good at something doesn’t mean it’s not a massive effort for them, read up about masking :)
This. Especially the second half.
You made the comment that society hates neurodivergent people. It was you they implied that they can’t fit in, not me. I just pointed out that my kid is gifted (according to you, neurodivergent) and that he is also socially intelligent and fits in quite well.
You can be mature, well liked, and have leadership and people skills and still be a neurodivergent. Neurodivergent is a very broad category nowadays. People with things like ADHD and ASPD often end up being CEOs or self-employed. They are in fact overrepresented in those kinds of jobs. Not every neurodivergent person is socially inept or immature, to think otherwise is frankly abelism.
Heck even I used to be considered mature and capable at one point. Could never get away from being considered weird though.
The top level commenter was the one who made the comment that being gifted makes you neurodivergent and the comment that society doesn’t like neurodivergent people. I simply pointed out that my kid meets their requirement of neurodivergent and is very socially adept. I made no generalization about what neurodivergent people are or are not like, that was the other commenter.
I wonder why it’s me you challenged and not the other poster, when your criticism is similar to my criticism of them and doesn’t really apply to anything I said (although I can see why it was inferred).
You are EatATaco, right?
The top level commenter was the one who made the comment that being gifted makes you neurodivergent and the comment that society doesn’t like neurodivergent people.
Yes and I generally don’t disagree with either of those points. Gifted people are much more likely to have things like ADHD, Autism, Anxiety, and so on. Even if this wasn’t true being gifted still counts as special educational needs at the minimum if not neurodivergent. It’s also true that society often treats neurodivergent people (even gifted ones) badly.
I am challenging you because you essentially did the following: my son is gifted and can’t be neurodivergent because he is (proceeds to list a bunch of things that aren’t actually incompatible with neurodivergence).
You can be liked by your peers and still be mistreated by society, those aren’t mutually exclusive. Normally it’s through things like school and work not being designed for neurodivergent people as much as it is about outright discrimination.
Do you get me?
my son is gifted and can’t be neurodivergent because he is (proceeds to list a bunch of things that aren’t actually incompatible with neurodivergence).
Except I didn’t say this. The other poster made the claim that gifted means neurodivergent, and the neurodivergent are rejected by society. I pointed out that my kid is gifted and socially very accepted, challenging either of their claims.
You can be liked by your peers and still be mistreated by society
A fair disagreement, which certainly is also not true for my kid, but I think we might be wandering into pedantic territory, but either way I certainly did not say that my son can’t be neurodivergent because he does well socially.
I was told that when I went to college I would realize that I’m not that smart. Instead I met a bunch of people who got depressed because they weren’t as good as I was. I tried to explain to them that I was a freak who was masking so hard that I collapsed from exhaustion whenever I got home, and they shouldn’t try to compare themselves to me because the part of my brain that does logic ate the part that reads faces and understands how talking works. I wanted them to understand that there was a lot that came naturally to them that I would never be able to do easily.
Humble autism.
I was put in GT classes in middle school because I went to a (shitty) private elementary school where every kid went on to GT. Somehow I struggled through GT until those classes weren’t offered anymore (sophomore year of high school) and I hated every minute of it and was really bad at what they wanted me to do.
If I could do it over again, I would beg my parents not to put me in GT classes.
When I was a primary school kid we didn’t have gifted and talented classes. Kids who were ahead of the class could continue doing more and more advanced maths, move onto the next year’s work, though in 6th grade the problems only went up to advanced 6th grade. I don’t know what you would do if you were smart but unsatisfied with maths, I guess you’d be disruptive.
I had a guy in my class. We shared a first name and middle name. If he was going to school today he would have had a IEP. My high school guidance counselor who also created the class schedules was in a feud with my parents about some trivial thing. She knew but didn’t care she swapped my almost by name doppelgangers schedules. Poor dude got stuck in advanced classes and they stuck me in the the regular classes. I didn’t say anything since I hated the advanced classes. I had straight A’s for the first time in my life. Unfortunately at around five weeks in they decided to swap us since my parents found out and of course the teachers knew it was a ‘mistake’. I told them I wanted to stay in the regular classes but of course that simply wasn’t possible. I could have had a high grade point in high school but since they insisted I had to be in the advanced classes where maintained a B to C grade in everything except computer science and physics. I know why I sucked in all the other classes today but back then I had that ‘keen awareness of my own deficiencies’. My parents were so busy having their childish feuds that they refused to get me help for my problems.
I wonder how many of those who would fall in the blue area represented here have some form of Executive Dysfunction or as in my case additional issues?
E-sports are really catching on I wouldn’t have minded some training in school!
What does the GT stand for? I’m unfamiliar with the acronym, as it seems schools across the nation use different terms to describe the same thing.
Gifted and Talented.
I am neither.
Trust me, the same thing applies to the green region.
BuT yOuR pOtEnTiAl!..
Green region comes with a higher propensity for self “medicating” as well. Honestly makes me feel like less of a failure because I may be useless but at least I’m not an alcoholic?
I’m useless and not an alcoholic but looking back it would have been much better for me to self medicate somehow and stay in school instead of dropping out.
Are you saying my self medicatory alcoholism makes me green?
Excellent!
