Disclaimer: I am not trolling, I am an autistic person who doesn’t understand so many social nuances. Also I am from New Hampshire (97% white), so I just don’t have any close African-American friends that I am willing to risk asking such a loaded question.
I gotta say, I genuinely love this issue.
Like I’m a left leaning generic progressive white guy with a degree that includes a Sociology minor. This shit is so fascinating to me.
I don’t know many black people, personally. Maybe 10 humans I know (like… Might send a social media message to because we are casual acquaintances) are black. I live in a rural area. Two are vegan, but the rest do indeed love fried chicken. We joke, I’veasked. I mean fuck, So do I. What meat eater doesn’t? It’s such a bizarre stereotype from the start. I believe I’ve heard it has to do with slaves being given the wings and appendages of chicken? But I don’t know the veracity of that. Seems plausible?
Anyways, this.
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Dated a lovely black woman back in my late 20s, she took me to meet her family like a month in, they were all super sweet. Dinner was fried chicken, hominy, mustard and collard greens, slaw and Mac n cheese, her grandmas fried chicken made me forget I ever cared about my grandmas fried chicken. Who the fuck doesn’t love fried chicken? Okay sure, vegans, but other than that?
And seriously I get the whole stereotype being a deep seated bunch of white people fuckery, but like, fuck that, let’s eat.
My guess is that if they had got a local Soul Food place to cater a whole spread, and the fried chicken and watermelon was part of the rest of the stuff you just mentioned, it would have gone over better. (I bet Charlotte has a bunch of places that would have done that for them). Maybe they could even have done some research and provided the context I am just learning now, in this thread.
But I think this was planned by committee, and that committee planned it all in a half hour so they could break for lunch earlier. So they got a bunch of buckets of chicken (I hope they weren’t from KFC), and someone went to Publix and bought a bunch of watermelon to cut up, and they called it all good. And that committee had nobody on it that pointed out how bad this would look without better planning. (In other words, no black folks…)
This is my favorite bit on that subject:
Others have given you solid answers on why the chicken and watermelon thing was really stupid so I’ll try to answer from the Irish perspective on the second part of your question:
You can serve me corned beef and cabbage on St. Patrick’s day as long as you’re not being a dick about it. I’d probably consider it a nice effort actually if I happened to be abroad on the day.
My dad used to love corned beef, cabbage and potatoes with parsley sauce. It’s a grand meal but not my thing.
If you were a unionist who served it to me in a leprechaun outfit I’d be inclined to tell you where to go though.
Edit: I hope this answers your question. It’s a good question and the answer is nuanced so if I can offer you more perspective let me know, I’d be happy to help.
Thank you, this helped a lot!
Note: Unionist is not refering to labor unions.
😂
Years and years ago at a house party, some woman from Cork and a friend of mine from Belfast were joking and they said, “Because Ulster says”, and I had no idea what they were talking about.
All these years later I can still hear his voice saying it.
This seems interesting. What’s the context here?
The lad in the picture is Ian Paisley. He was a prominent unionist back in the day. (Unionist being someone in favour of maintaining the six counties in Northern Ireland being part of the UK)
From the wiki page:
Ulster Says No was the name and slogan of a unionist mass protest campaign against the provisions of the 1985 Anglo-Irish Agreement which gave the government of the Republic of Ireland an advisory role in the governance of Northern Ireland.
Page here if you want some more reading.
As I recall (and I was young at the time so this may be wrong) it got rolled out for various other stuff.
Catchy slogan in fairness.
I’m a white man from Ukraine migrated to America in 1989.
I love fried chicken, I live in the south of America the deep South and man oh man do we have good fried chicken!
Fried chicken is a universally loved dish and is only stereotyped by the most ignorant of people!
Not only should fried chicken be served for Juneteenth it should be served on every holiday as well!
Tbh. I’ve been craving chicken and waffles for months. I was like hell yeah hopefully there’s a event or some shit that might have some for sale…
Well no… only one place had it on the menu and it was a gentrified restraunt that was charging 25 bucks for chicken strips and a waffle for 28 bucks.
I was disappointed to say yhe least.
Is it not common just to make something when you want it?
Maybe I’m too Canadian to understand but do you usually go out for meals?
Fried chicken is difficult to make at home due to the cookware and temperatures involved. It’s also a LOT of cooking oil, so it doesn’t really make sense unless you’re frying a LOT of chicken.
I mean its not the exact same crisp but a small layer of oil in a standard pan’ll still beat waiting months I’d argue
Millennial Americans will cook, if it isnt too complicated.
GenZ Americans won’t cook unless it is putting something in the microwave.
Who asked you?
The same person that asked you to respond with this nonsense.
Cooking is not so much of a generational thing and more of a time/convenience thing. Some people just don’t have time to cook. They could be working double jobs, working late hours, etc. And some people just don’t want to cook or like the convenience of take out food. Nothing wrong with that
It isn’t racist to eat chicken and waffles on Juneteenth. It would be like eating ham on Thanksgiving. You can do it and you can do it with friends if everyone is on board for that.
This question reminds me of when that school in NY got in trouble for serving “stereotype food” for black history month.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/06/us/aramark-black-history-month-menu-school-reaj/index.html
I have the same confusion as you do, OP. It appears to be a liked dish by all accounts across many races, upbringings, or religions. Unless you have dietary restrictions like Vegan or something.
I’m assuming this is one of the things that racists ruined. Like yeah people like fried chicken, but racist made it a “bad thing.” It’s kind of like now, you got to look out for the number 88, vikings, the okay sign, the gadsden flag, or punisher flag. It’s not that mentioning fried chicken is necessary bad, but people are on edge because Nazi’s are back. 1 of the dog whistles might be a coincidence, but you start collecting them and I start side eyeing my co-workers more.
Those damn dog whistles need to end, so we can all enjoy fried chicken and watermelon on Juneteenth.
This is not targeted at you nor OP.
The answer for both you and OP is tied to your last sentence
so we can all enjoy fried chicken and watermelon on Juneteenth.
Why fried chicken and watermelon and why on Juneteenth? Do you eat fried chicken and watermelon as part of your normal rotation? (Hopefully, ‘yes’ because both are delicious and everyone should be afforded the opportunity to indulge)
The issue is that very evidently in both OP’s case and the one you linked that someone was given the prompts “food for celebration” and “celebration of African Americans”, generated “African American party foods”, and churned out a menu reinforcing racist stereotypes. The inquiry is “hey, where is your head at?”
I mean I get that. I just don’t personally see it as that. I do eat fried chicken and watermelon (and other soul food like greens, sweet potatoes, etc). I don’t eat them as much as I want because the places around me don’t make good soul food anymore. The quality is down in my opinion.
I mentioned the day because all holiday celebrations include food. I also mentioned in my opinion, that everyone loves that type of food. I just didn’t think of it as “black food” but I know it is stereotypically a trope. I think this understanding of other people’s racist tropes and my love of celebrating with loved ones and good food is where I (and assuming OP) is coming from.
Is the main issue the intent? If you eat corned beef for St Paddy’s or carne asada for Cinco de Mayo is that an issue? If we ask black people what we should eat for Black History Month or Juneteenth and they agreed that soul food is good then is it okay? Should we just stick to burgers and dogs like it’s the 4th of July?
I feel we can never really have these conversations (IRL) because people assume what the other person means when they are trying to understand the reason behind it.
All that to say, we have to be extra vigilant because racists are everywhere pushing their agenda, so I understand that this trope could be insulting to some. I’ve also met black people that don’t give it a second thought because the food is good and they were hungry.
Juneteenth is coalescing around a menu of barbeque and red colored foods. Fried chicken could be served, but it likely wouldn’t be the main entree.
It would be like a non-American serving Americans burgers and fries for Thanksgiving. Sure, Americans are known to like burgers, but that isn’t the holiday is about.
I know this whole celebration of Juneteenth is new, so the foods will take some time to become official. BBQ and red food is just as good as any other made up meal, in my opinion.
I wish we focused more on black (or at least local) owned businesses for Juneteenth. Of course, holidays get commercialized like crazy, so I’m sure some businesses will pander too much and make a fool of themselves.
On a side note, I heard Japan celebrates Christmas with KFC. Apparently that’s the idea that got sold to Japan for how Americans celebrate Christmas. I wouldn’t be surprised if some countries think Americans eat burgers and fries for Thanksgiving.
https://www.timeout.com/tokyo/things-to-do/whats-the-deal-with-kfc-and-christmas-in-japan
just as good as any other made up meal, in my opinion.
You may not see a significance in a holiday meal, but others do. There is a reason why most civilizations include traditional foods to holidays.
I just meant what the food was didn’t matter. It was having a good to come together around and share in the togetherness.
Apparently the food does matter.
Sorry to repost my reply from another thread, I hate to spam up the post but I feel like every American should know about the Minstrel Show
It wasn’t just a form of comedy, it was an entire entertainment industry all on its own, like movie theaters or concerts today. It eventually got replaced by/morphed into Vaudeville (still with blackface/black clowns) which was then replaced by cinema.
For a good 50-100 years, a major form of entertainment (not just in the South btw) was pretty much just: “haha black people are such stupid clowns! Look, that one thinks he’s fancy! That one’s a no-good drunk! Oh look, that one’s trying to give a speech!” It was pretty formulaic with standard props, just like you’d expect to see at a clown show. So fried chicken and watermelon were standard props like “tiny car full of clowns”, oversized shoes, a flower pot for a hat, a flower that squirts water, etc. For that reason they carry a very unpleasant legacy that reminds people of an insult to injury that still hasn’t been made right, in my opinion.
The format was pretty similar to the show Hee-Haw actually, kind of a fun variety show, just wildly racist and it’s obviously pretty fucked up to pick on literal slaves. Real bitch move there.
So people who know something about history are pretty salty about that and forms of the Minstrel Show were still happening here and there recently enough that people alive today remember seeing them.
Irish people caught some shit, but not like that. I’m not sure if Irish-American racism like that happened recently enough that living people remember it, or that it was ever to the extent that it formed an entire entertainment industry.
I suppose I’m in a similar situation with ppl in Vermont you don’t really get to socialize with people and the few people you come across are never black. Infact I recall actually learning about fried chicken and watermelon being racist from the backlash from the school you just mentioned.
There’s nothing wrong with fried chicken. There’s nothing wrong with watermelon.
But if you’re trying to think of menu options for an event associated with black history and you just shrug and think “I dunno, black people like fried chicken and watermelon, so lets do that” you’re being so lazy you’d be better off doing nothing at all. I literally typed “black history food” into a search and got many pages with lists of options. So by serving fried chicken and watermelon it’s a statement “I don’t give a fuck about black people but since I’m obligated to serve some kind of food option I’m just going to stick with lazy stereotypes.”
It wold be preferable to do nothing and be honest about not caring than it is to offer a stereotype and then cry crocodile tears because people aren’t recognizing the token effort that was made.
Don’t forget red hats, no more red hats without automatic suspicion… If they have white block text, amplify suspicion by 10,000
Wait, What’s this about corned beef? I am Irish (as in actually from Ireland) and I have no idea what that has to do with St Patrick’s day?
Irish-Americans found an affinity for corned beef as they finally had access to meat and especially beef. They initially lived in and near Jewish neighborhoods, so, it became popular to boil up corned beef, cabbage, and root vegetables.
I believe Americans serve it on Paddy’s day and / or is seen as a stereotypically Irish meal over there. I do recall being asked over there if I ate it regularly.
As I said in another comment there my oul boy did actually really like it as a meal but I think it’s more a misunderstanding though it does have some weird historical roots.
Thats wild I didn’t know that was a mainly Irish-American dish. My mother always makes it every St Patrick’s day I think it’s delicious. Don’t tell me that soda bread isn’t traditionally Irish either??
Fear not…Brown soda bread is big here. Definitely my most consumed bread.
Watermelon and chicken were two of the ways that black people started supporting themselves after being freed from slavery. They were agricultural products they could raise with very little investment and start building wealth from essentially nothing. Racists, not wanting them to prosper, mocked them for their preference for these things, but it’s important to note that the mockery didn’t stop them from supporting themselves with the foods they were able to produce. To this day black people enjoy these foods, and there’s nothing wrong with them enjoying the foods. If you’re with your black family, and you want to celebrate your own heritage, this isn’t actually a bad way to do it.
However.
When a corporation, particularly a corporation run and staffed by white people, makes a choice to celebrate a significant black cultural date by presenting people with foods that white people used to mock black people, it reads as mockery. (This is especially true in North Carolina, a place where racism is rampant and open.) At best, this is tone deaf; someone along the way should have said “hey, do you think any black people will feel like you’re doing this as a racist attack?” And if any one of them had answered “yes” to that question, they wouldn’t have done it. It made it through the pipeline to being something they actually did because nobody in the decision chain cares about the racist overtones of what they were doing.
If you’re going to do anything to celebrate black history or black culture, failing to ask any black people what they think about it is racism. Cultural sensitivity would have meant getting some input from a few black folks about how they think it should be celebrated–and, had they done that, they would have avoided this mess.
And, just in case anyone was wondering, the VP in charge of this situation is white.
Ok, everything you just said is true, and a great answer if the question is “Why is chicken and watermellon a bad food to be assosiated with February/Juneteenth?”.
However, the question is “Why is it different from corned beef on St. Patricks day?” And everything you just said is ALSO true about how Americans treated the Irish upon their mass immigration to America during the 1800s. They were mocked for corned beef, potatoes, and alcohol. The Irish were assosiated with those items in Ireland for the same reasons black people were assosiated with chicken, and watermellons. It was cheap, and it fed a poor mans family. The non-poor (whites) mocked them for being poor.
So…you gave a great answer, but not for this exact question. And yes, I know the original question didn’t mention potatoes or alcohol, but it also applies for the same reasons.
I’m not saying what the company did was right, I’m saying those same racist stigmas for the holiday it was compared to is equally wrong.
I think a better answer is “It’s not so different. Both are wrong.”
I mean, OP replied to my answer and apparently liked it, so I think I got him squared. But here’s a real response:
When the concept of whiteness was invented (yes, invented) it didn’t originally include Irish people, and they did endure abuse and marginalization comparable to what black people have endured and continued to endure. Irish people were worked as near slaves, so they even have a lot of that in common. As you say, I think that if you were Irish in America in the early 19th century, people who already belonged to the White club would have mocked you for your corned beef. We still make fun of Irish people for these things.
But there is a difference. Irish people in modern times got access to whiteness. They were accepted as part of the in-group and no longer marginalized. When this happened, and it took decades to gradually go this direction, the mockery didn’t disappear but, if you were Irish (and, in fact, I am) it would have started to feel less like someone who means you harm, and more as friendly teasing, precisely because you have access to the same power as the Germans and the British and so on who already belonged to the club.
Black people don’t have that. Black people are still very much marginalized, still the victims of racism and violence and institutional exclusion. So piling the food-based racism on top of that, is going to feel a lot more painful.
It’s one thing to be mocked; but to be mocked by someone else who is punching down is much worse.
An interesting aside that you probably know: corned beef and cabbage is a distinctly Irish-American tradition. The Irish were economically forced to raise cattle for corned beef for British folks. Despite raising and curing the beef, they could not afford it and subsisted on potatoes. Britain’s wealth and insatiable appetite for corned beef was so immense that those who made it could not afford the price. On the other hand, the reliance on potatoes for subsistence during this period as well as its outcome is well known.
If I recall correctly, some states even had laws against black people raising animals like cows (and maybe pigs too?), so chickens were their only option.
Thank you! TIL Black people were mocked for liking those foods. They are the best, racists are only hurting themselves if they don’t eat it!
Ah, but here’s the real hypocrisy: they absolutely do eat those foods. Southerners of any color love fried chicken and watermelon. That doesn’t stop them from being racist about it. Racism doesn’t have to make sense.
I dont know a single person who has said they hated fried chicken or watermelon. Watermelon isn’t my favorite because it’s never as sweet as I think it is going to be but I will never turn a cold slice down.
I hate watermelon. Even the best, most ripe watermelon sucks. But usually they’re mealy and watery in flavor. They also remind me of the taste of cucumbers, which I hate more, unless they’re pickled.
Every time this comes up I gotta say, who the fuck doesn’t like fried chicken and watermelon?! It’s like making fun of someone for liking sunshine and the ability to breathe. Not that I needed another reason to point at racists and call them a bunch of fucked up morons, but goddamn they are bunch of fucked up morons.
I like watermelon for the first 1.2 seconds where it actually has flavor. Though I did see a picture floating around Lemmy here that made me think the watermelons I’ve had that gave me that opinion were probably a quantity vs quality issue.
Thats why you just gotta keep eating more. More flavor! Also yes some definitely have more flavor than others, I’m no good at picking them but if you cut it open and it’s deep red you’re probably in for a good tome.
My mom eats it with salt. It’s actually not bad, I enjoy it either way. The salt does give it an interesting flavor, so maybe try that if it might enable you to like it more.
Melon with something savory is a widely popular choice. See: honeydew with prosciutto/parma ham and cantaloupe/honeydew with tajin (Mexican mix of savory spices.)
I never knew about the prosciutto/ham, but tajin makes everything better!
Bullies don’t make sense.
Actively working against your own species is fucking brain dead. Especially a species you share the fucking planet with.
The nice part about tolerance is it’s a contract. If you don’t agree to it, nobody who does agree to it has to be tolerant with you. It’s simple
It’s like making fun of someone for liking sunshine
At the risk of completely derailing the conversation, I’ve met a lot of people in the PNW who don’t like warm weather or sunshine. When summer rolls around they start complaining about it being too sunny and want the grey skies back. Frickin weirdos!
I’m too pale AF to have a loving relationship with the sun. I’ve been burned too many times. I always use protection, but last weekend the sunscreen failed me :(
I really tried to pick two things that couldn’t be argued with so now I’m just waiting for someone to tell me they don’t like breathing either.
Haha!
C’mon guy/gal, don’t kinkshame (/s)
The sun is actively trying to kill me, you’re the weirdo in this situation! I have freckles in places that have never seen sunshine by just EXISTING for a few days in Oklahoma!!
I mean, climate change being what it is, I’m literally brainstorming ways to inject artificial rain clouds into the sky.
My current idea is giant poles all over the city. They have blades at the top. They start rotating like a helicopter, but not designed to takeoff. Instead, it sprays cool mist above the blades so the cool mist gets swirled around in the hot air, that makes the whole city artificially humid. Eventually this should all rise up, and create rain clouds! Which then cool down the entire city.
Edit: Also, I have zero idea if this conceptually is even feasible.
Haha. Dubai had success with cloud seeding recently. But they forgot that they’re a desert without adequate drainage or runoff, and flooded their whole city.
Well, shit! Pass that technology over here! We could test it in Nevada, on a daily basis for 10 years. Maybe raining over a section of desert that has literally zero life can turn it into a livable habitat. It could be a test. With the added benefit of cooling a portion of the earth as they do it.
That’s me! The life giving sun can fuck off behind the clouds!
PNW weirdo here. I like things to be green and alive, I like my skin unburned, and I like being able to poke around tide pools on a lonely beach. Clouds and rain help all of that.
It’s currently sunny and about 77°F, which is about as warm as I want it unless I’m going swimming. Late summer when it approaches 100° is miserable, but for now the bright weather is fine and good for the plants.
It’s so beautiful today! I’m wearing shorts and flip flops for the first time in months, and I started working on my bike again now that we may have a period without rain for a while.
Dave Chapelle had a whole bit about this before he decided to double (and triple, and quadruple) down on transphobia. He makes the very salient point that these things are delicious.
Came here to say that. Barring a few contrarians, EVERYONE likes both watermelon and fried chicken. I know vegetarians who will admit that fried chicken tastes fantastic, even if they no longer eat it.
I also wanted to link to some info about the “Coon Chicken Inn” chain – founded by a white guy, of course.
- http://depts.washington.edu/civilr/coon_chicken.htm
- https://jimcrowmuseum.ferris.edu/links/essays/chicken.htm
He has blue eyes, confirming a depiction of a white man in black face, as opposed to a racist caricature of black people. 😠
Holy fuckin shit
Not that I needed another reason to point at racists and call them a bunch of fucked up morons, but goddamn they are bunch of fucked up morons.
People are literally killing people who’s ancestors adapted to more exposure to direct sunlight than theirs did. I can’t not see it in just that simple way and think “what the actual fuck is wrong with people?” You can’t even say it’s a culture thing they don’t like, because they don’t actually know the people they cast hate at other than the color of their skin. It’s absolute insanity.
I heard white racists make fun of black people for that a lot when I was younger. But we ate it when I was a kid because we were poor and that was cheap and delicious.
looks at username
Well…yeah. You’re going to run into racists in TEXAS!!! Jesus! That’s the same place that seceded from Mexico to defend their ability to have slaves. Then seceded from the usa to defend their ability to have slaves. Then they complain about building a wall to keep Mexicans out.
If Florida didn’t exist, Texas would be the king of racism in America.
Texas is racist, Florida is racist, but ain’t neither of them got shit on Alabama and Mississippi. Texas and Florida are just louder.
Fried chicken and watermelon is still used to mock black people as well. There were racist memes about Obama eating fried chicken and watermelon.
I was a child of the 90s when I feel this humor was more prevalent. Until now, I always thought of it as a common stereotype, like white guys in khakis, old white women and wine, or country folk and cheap beer. Something that does poke fun of a group, but generally in a light way. Now I know there’s a more significant back story. I figured it was just culturally something that developed in black communities.
It’s kinda sweet you didn’t know this actually.
It’s a real tell that they had no black person high enough in management to raise this concern.
In this day and age, either diversify or sign a contract with a “cultural awareness” agency to run your ideas by first.
Who’s the company involved in this? I’m not in the US so I’ve probably missed a lot of context here.
Spectrum. I think they’re mainly an ISP, cable TV, stuff like that. We don’t have them around here but I understand them to be a fairly big company.
This one doesn’t fall on the whole company, mainly just this one call center, but still, Spectrum corporate should get interested in how this happened.
Ah okay. Thank you!
I am in the US and this is the first I’ve heard of it. I thought it was just a hypothetical question until I started reading the comments.
You just made me so happy to be on Lemmy and not Reddit. Great answer!
It would provide an excuse for someone to raise hell and make others happy.
The Irish, for example, are no longer systematically persecuted in the USA en masse.
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If I tell people I’m autistic can I just say whatever comes into my head without consequences and then turn it against them if they do?
Yes you can, in fact many people just say they are autistic.
Ultimate life hack UNLOCKED
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Um, but actual Irish-Americans love eating corned beef and cabbage on St. Patrick’s day. It’s racist to celebrate your heritage? Or just to try things from other people’s cultures?
In my experience, when you get an over-the-top response from someone from a sh.itjust.works user, the best response it to just block them.
Found the bigot.
I bet you go to Taco Bell for Cinco de mayo too.
Nah, go bugger lol. One side of my family is mostly from potato famine Irish, and we all love some corned beef. It’s definitely on the menu for holidays
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That’s not the comparison you need to use here. The comparison should be Irish car bombs. And the answer is there’s not a difference that’s super, will not racist but jingoist maybe, too.
Or Black and Tans aka half and halfs
Ignore what everyone on the internet says. They are wrong. Eat what you want. Just make sure everybody participating is comfortable. If you’re not sure then ask them directly and listen to what they say.
The issue isn’t eating what you want.
The issue is that there is a cultural celebration involving food. Rather than try to serve food that fits within that cultural celebration, food was served based on a racial stereotype.
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It doesn’t make my point incorrect.
Probably a lot of black families actually do have fried chicken, barbeque and cookouts are apparently a big part of the festivities traditionally.
If you find yourself becoming such good friends with a black person that they actually invite you to one of these cookouts, don’t bring fried chicken, or watermelons, or most of the stereotypical “black” foods, they’re considered black people food because the post civil war south fostered an environment of chronic black poverty on purpose that led to black families tending towards raising cheaper animals and growing cheaper crops for their own consumption.
So a white guy cracking watermelon or fried chicken jokes or bringing that kind of stuff to a black celebration comes across less as trying to share in the culture and more as rubbing salt in a, in many ways still open, wound.
As for what you should bring, bro just ask. Just making it known ya want to bring something for folks to enjoy will be good and appreciated, and if they decide they’d like to take you up on that, they’ll either give you a recipe off their list of stuff they’ve decided they want or ask what you think you can handle making and take your word on that if anything you feel confident making sounds good. Who knows, maybe that year will go down as the year that corned beef ya mentioned becomes a staple of the annual cookout!
What if they ask him to bring watermelon and chicken to the cookout? ;-)
Make sure you can go wide eyed enough that they start laughing if they were just razzing you
