I was looking at an old thread about “patsocs” and I saw the following comment, which I believe to be true - I have written this in a rush so sorry for any mistakes. EDIT: I was asked what the question was, so tl;dr it would be: is the threat of patsoc, particularly the “MAGA communism” development a significant threat beyond the terminally online proponents. I’ll add that to the beginning of the post.
The comment: 'The CIA is probably going to use patsocs to infiltrate marxist groups and distract the public.
Marxist parties in the U.S should hopefully start banning them soon.’
The problem is that I have seen self-proclaimed “Marxist-Leninist” parties and groups which they (the intelligence apparatus, allegedly) control from the country I live in (one of the nations of the “UK” but we’ll say “Britain” for the sake of argument) actually start to embrace and promote the ridiculous “MAGA communist” movement (if it can truly be called such at this point) which I have only discovered in recent months, and I couldn’t wrap my head around it nor see it as being anything more niche than I was led to believe when I made enquiries with comrades in the USA about it on Twitter before I left the platform. After observing groups in recent days - mainly on Telegram which I use mainly for news on Palestine and other resistance movements but also speak to a small number of comrades, plus friends in countries where they cannot communicate on social media platforms in the west. I replied to a comment on the thread I mentioned and feel that it may be worth discussing the phenomenon of “MAGA communism”. Perhaps comrades here will disagree and see it still as the terminally online “movement” it has been but the comment I quoted at the start of this thread made me feel that it is more serious than previously thought - this came to me especially when I saw the “Marxist Leninist” party in Britain I mentioned jump on the bandwagon of “MAGA communism” in a truly grotesque, opportunist fashion which seems to give credence to the notion that various intelligence agencies will utilise patsoc movements in order to infiltrate Marxist groups and distract the public as mentioned in the aforementioned quote but I also believe that intelligence agencies may promote these dangerous, poisonous ideas to not only distort and discredit Marxists and communists generally but also to manufacture a movement which goes offline and could present actual, tangible and material danger to the masses by ultimately serving the ruling class and doing so in a violent manner informed by their reactionary, crypto-fascist beliefs, creating an issue which must be condemned by communists as it seems to have been ignored. Below is a reply I left in that thread and so sorry for any repetitions of this preface but I feel that a serious discussion is warranted on what could potentially develop into a dangerous, full on fascist movement and should be taken seriously.
I believe that we are witnessing the development of a movement: “MAGA communism” which could not only aid in discrediting communist theory but also the development of class consciousness in the USA in particular*, given the significant emergence of proletarians in the USA discovering Marxist/Marxist-Leninist theory over the last ten years or so in a country where anti-communism has been so prevalent at every level of the ideological state apparatus that Marxist theory and practice has essentially been denied to the proletariat. Of course this is true in all bourgeois states but the USA as the reigning imperialist bloc has perhaps been the most rabid in its anti-communism, with the Red Scare, the blacklisting, COINTELPRO and other operations, to the point at which “socialism” and “communism” became the dirtiest of words to the masses of the oppressed class to which the revolutionary, scientific theory and practice of Marxism-Leninism was developed for in terms of liberating the masses from the very mode of production which oppresses them. The economic devastation left by neoliberal reforms as well as evolution in modes of communication (i.e. the internet) have led people to seek theories which address the material conditions in which entire generations have seen the promised ideals of “prosperity for all” for what they are and class consciousness has developed significantly as a result of these factors.
*In Britain for example, there was a socialist current throughout the 20th century - a labour movement, largely dominated by the labour aristocracy who are descendants of the betrayers of revolutionary struggle by the Second International, although Marxist-Leninists occupied significant spaces within the unions and many Trotskyists, via their tactic of entryism, existed within the Labour Party, right up until the Labour Party essentially purged the left from the party leading up to election of Labour under Tony Blair (who ultimately adopted a continuity of the neoliberal reforms put into place under Thatcher’s regime - our Reagan - destroying any pretence of “socialism” within the “Labour” Party). The point really is that “socialism” was not a dirty word in Britain in the same way as in the USA and I believe that this is due to how the labour movement within the USA evolved largely outside of the European movement, ultimately betrayed by the Second International of course, but this is in no way being said to discredit the achievements and tireless struggle of comrades in the USA who have internally struggled against the bourgeoisie and its domestic oppression as well as its emergence as the most powerful imperialist bloc in the age of imperialism.
These patsoc types seem to have made more significant moves into spaces outside of their cultish beginnings. For example, not being from the USA, “MAGA communism” only became apparent to me recently, which was truly baffling before I looked into information on patsoc on Prolewiki, and I joined Lemmygrad because I was so frustrated with seeing “communist” channels on Telegram, for example, allowing this kind of shit and seeing one supposedly “ML” party from the UK (which as an aside I believe to be run by spooks) embrace the “ideology” and to essentially jump on the bandwagon in a truly grotesque, opportunistic move in a desire to be relevant and perhaps gain some new members. I can’t see any other justification for their actions. They make the excuse that the “MAGA” movement contains proletarian elements, which is true, but this is territory similar to suggesting that the “national socialists” contained proletarian elements, or the Union of Fascists of Britain and we saw how that played out. I reminded them that Stalin saw the “national socialists” for what they were before WW2 started, as did most communists I am sure, and also that one of the most significant moments in the history of the proletariat/labour movement in 20th century England was the Battle of Cable Street, in which antifascists and ordinary members of the public came together to beat the shit out of Oswald Mosley’s brownshirt thugs. Antifascism has been a longstanding current in Britain generally, and to see what is essentially a fascist movement being supported by “Marxist-Leninists” in this country is a disgrace and should be violently opposed as all fascist movements should be.
But my main point is that they seemed to have spread. I was fooled into entering spaces before I realised that these movements were so significant. I have seen people discuss them as terminally online but the attempted “synthesis” (again, truly grotesque: apologies to Marx, Lenin and of course Hegel) of the Cult of Maga with “communism” is a potential danger which cannot be slept on. MAGA fascists were highly visible during the Trump era and beyond and helped to bring fascists out of the woodworks. It could well be that the “MAGA communists” do the same.
It seems to me that the whole thing is a psyop designed to discredit communist theory and “communists”, given the significant emergence of proletarians in the USA discovering Marxist/Marxist-Leninist theory over the last ten to fifteen years or so. But I do believe that it has the potential to become a more significant threat to being a mere online cult of wackos that are likely being manipulated by some kind of COINTELPRO style psyop into accepting distorted ideas about communism in order to discredit them and to turn “communism” into a dirty word again.
It should be noted that I haven’t seen these people defend Israel but they do focus much energy on the proxy war in Ukraine and this was in part why I started to pay attention to some of the articles they put out, coming from places like The Grayzone initially, but they hardly seem to talk about Palestine at all, which is of course an international emergency requiring the attention of communists around the world as I write this. Also, my only exposure to this is via channels which proclaim to be “communist” but are indeed “patsocs” and who, in these channels, “defend” and promote “MAGA communism”, as I said, to the point that a self-proclaimed “Marxist-Leninist” party in my country jumping on this bandwagon (they are a very small party and are highly reactionary, especially on issues such as trans issues, but they claim to uphold an anti-revisionist line, yet are apparently funded by the state apparatus and I hear this from an old comrade who is approaching 90 and has heard and seen it all before. This party split from the original ML party of the Comintern due to revisionism in the main body of the party, which does have serious problems in itself. Anyway I am rambling).
There’s your problem. Nothing good comes from Telegram.
I use Telegram to speak to one of my best friends who moved to Russia before the “special military operation” as we cannot communicate via most other mainstream (western) platforms and I know refugees who use it to communicate with relatives and so on in other parts of the world which I wont mention, so I would say that some good does/can come from it if it is used for certain purposes.
It is also good for getting on the ground news from Palestine and other places (Yemen, Syria, Iraq, statements from the PFLP, Kurdish groups, Irish Republican news and non-Marxist-Leninist groups involved in active resistance in the ME such as Hezbollah and certain Shia brigades who are fighting/assisting Palestine). But for the most part it is a political cess pit, at least in terms of western representation as well as reactionary/openly fascist elements in western and eastern Europe who make use of it although I have never looked at those channels and wouldn’t. Aside from the ones I have mentioned, the only ones I have looked at are nominally “communist” and most of them support “MAGA communism” and seem to be run by the CPGB-ML.
With no adequate party and with a fragmented, impotent left in the real world where I am but especially in the USA which dominates the digital landscape, it is hard to find spaces online to speak with genuine comrades and have decent, helpful, respectful discussions etc.
edit: Although to be fair I cannot speak to the parties in the USA. In the UK the “ML” parties are a joke/run by spooks and Trots are generally more visible, have higher numbers and this has especially been the case since the Comintern splits over revisionism, also due in large part to their entryist tactics in relation to the Labour Party in the last century. Now the left is fragmented but class consciousness has developed over the years and this is why I asked this question, due to the prospect of naive, new potential comrades falling for the traps set by these reactionaries masquerading as communists, rendering them impotent at best and at worst, at the service of emerging fascism. They might come across the CPGB-ML and join without understanding what’s going on and what they are really about, because they have “communist” and “ML” in their name - I started out as a Trot due to being fledgling when it came to theory - and it is our duty as communists to warn prospective comrades about what groups really stand for, again, hence this thread.
With all due respect, your replies haven’t been useful and I don’t think you’ve really read much of what I’ve said, or have at least only seen/understood it through a narrow USA-formed lens. “MAGA communism” only appeared to me in a “serious” way the day before I made an account here. Before that it was described on Twitter as a terminally online cult with no real world support and didn’t seem to be taken seriously - not everyone is aware of the nuances and intricacies of the online US-left, especially outside of the USA… Seeing “MAGA communism” suddenly being promoted in Britain by the CPGB-ML was a shock and is worrying for reasons I’ve mentioned, hence why I came here to ask.
Maybe this should’ve gone into a different community where it could be discussed properly.
Really not much to say other than that the western left is fucked. If there’s ever a time where it feels like it isn’t, it’s because you’re being lied to.
I agree with the point but it is quite fatalist to merely state a fact and to not try and do anything about it. In Britain, I feel that it is the duty of communists to call out groups like the CPGB-ML (and the “Workers’ Party” as someone pointed out in another thread, which is career-opportunist George Galloway’s project) for their grotesque opportunistic support of crypto-fascist movements. Online and offline.
You need to know that there’s a problem before you can do anything about it, and we have way too many people charging head first into danger thinking a communist revolution is just around the corner, when half of their base thinks that indigenous liberation is white genocide.
So yes, it’s fatalist. Shit really is that bad… in the west. The third world on the other hand has way more potential to set things right. Good ending they take power and nuke the first world, just to put things in prospective.
There is a problem and it is the job of communists to call out parties that support this shit and to offer them places to get properly educated. I only recently discovered prolewiki for example but if someone asked me about “MAGA communism”, I’d possibly suggest that they read the prolewiki page and then we can discuss it.
Again, I don’t think that that’s a fair statement. It is the reactionary “ML” parties who are jumping on this patsoc bullshit in an opportunist fashion. I’ve been active for around 12 years and have never thought revolution was around the corner. That said, education, agitation and organisation never end, do they?
There are two things I always remember from Lenin when discussing or contemplating fatalism: 1) is the quote ‘There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen.’ and 2) his letter to (I think his mother but I might be wrong) in which he speaks in fatalist terms, as in that feeling we all have, like banging our heads against the walls.
I see this “MAGA communism” phenomenon as part of the never-ending fight against fascism and the material conditions in the USA as well as here in Britain (and all of Europe generally speaking) are ripe for fascism. We are seeing it in Britain and this is another manifestation of it. When the EDL come out, or the BNP back when I started, we would be out too ready to fight them, physically.
Fatalism is bordering on counterrevolutionary and being eager to call out fascism does not mean that you expect the proletariat to suddenly rise up under the banner of any given nation’s “communist party”. We have at least three “Marxist-Leninist” parties here, mostly run by spooks and several Trotskyist parties, as well as some ultraleft groups such as ancoms. I am under no illusion about the state of proletarian consciousness (or the lack thereof) but this doesn’t negate the need to organise. And the question of consciousness is in large part what leads me to see “MAGA communism” as a threat: it has money behind it, the algorithm favours it and it is having an influence on impressionable people. Are we meant to merely let that slide because the left is a joke?
If we can mobilise for Palestine solidarity marches almost every week in most major towns and cities, we can propagate against patsoc movements and call out the parties which support them.