Whenever AI is mentioned lots of people in the Linux space immediately react negatively. Creators like TheLinuxExperiment on YouTube always feel the need to add a disclaimer that “some people think AI is problematic” or something along those lines if an AI topic is discussed. I get that AI has many problems but at the same time the potential it has is immense, especially as an assistant on personal computers (just look at what “Apple Intelligence” seems to be capable of.) Gnome and other desktops need to start working on integrating FOSS AI models so that we don’t become obsolete. Using an AI-less desktop may be akin to hand copying books after the printing press revolution. If you think of specific problems it is better to point them out and try think of solutions, not reject the technology as a whole.
TLDR: A lot of ludite sentiments around AI in Linux community.
Gnome and other desktops need to start working on integrating FOSS AI models so that we don’t become obsolete.
I don’t get it. How Linux destops would become obsolete if they don’t have native AI toolsets on DEs? It’s not like they have a 80% market share. People who run them as daily drivers are still niche, and most don’t even know Linux exists. Most ppl grown up with Microsoft and Apple shoving ads down their throat, using them in schools first hand, and that’s all they know and taught. If I need AI, I will find ways to intergrate to my workflow, not by the dev thinks I need it.
And if you really need something like MS’s Recall, here is a FOSS version of it.
Its a good point but you can always have even lesa market share.
A floss project’s success is not necessarily marked by its market share but often by the absolute benefit it gives to its users. A project with one happy user and developer can be a success.
Is OpenRecall secure as well? One of my biggest problems with MS recall is that it stores all your personal info in plain text.
This I have no idea.
I think most of the hostility is in regards to shilling of certain sites and services. Local self hosted AI is not likely to get as much flack I feel. Another aspect of hate is people generating images and calling it art, which…it is but, it’s the microwave equivalent of art. Such negative sentiments can be remedied by actually doing artistic shit with whatever image they generate, like idk, put the image into Photoshop and maybe editing the image in a way that actually improves it, or using said image as a canvas to be added onto or some other shit.
Edit Addendum: also the negative perception of AI has mostly been engendered by some of its more unpleasant supporters, who think of it as a way to make “irrelevant” certain groups they don’t like, and to take some sorta sick schadenfreude in the “replacement” of these people, which they think may be a way of reducing the power of these people (politically, socially, etc), and that’s kinda fucked up.
I’m not against AI. I’m against the hoards of privacy-disrespecting data collection, the fact that everybody is irresponsibility rushing to slap AI into everything even when it doesn’t make sense because line go up, and the fact nobody is taking the limitations of things like Large Language Models seriously.
The current AI craze is like the NFTs craze in a lot of ways, but more useful and not going to just disappear. In a year or three the crazed C-level idiots chasing the next magic dragon will settle down, the technology will settle into the places where it’s actually useful, and investors will stop throwing all the cash at any mention of AI with zero skepticism.
It’s not Luddite to be skeptical of the hot new craze. It’s prudent as long as you don’t let yourself slip into regressive thinking.
Completely agree and I’ll do you one better:
What is being sold as AI doesn’t hold a candle to actual artificial intelligence, they’re error prone statistical engines incapable of delivering more than the illusion of intelligence. The only reason they were launched to the public is that corporations were anxious not to be the last on the market — whether their product was ready or not.
I’m happy to be a Luddite if it means having the capacity for critical thought to Just Not Use Imperfect Crapware™.
Then you might like this tech blog: https://theluddite.org/#!post/ai-hype
I agree. However, I think it is related to Capitalism and all the sociopathic corporations out there. It’s almost impossible to think that anything good will come from the Blue Church controlling even more tech. Capitalism have always used any opportunity to enslave/extort people - that continues with AI under their control.
However, I was also disappointed when I found out how negative ‘my’ crowd were. I wanted to create an open source lowend AGI to secure poor people a descent life without being attacked by Capitalism every day/hour/second, create abundance, communities, production and and in general help build a social sub society in the midst of the insane blue church and their propagandized believers.
It is perfectly doable to fight the Capitalist religion with homegrown AI based on what we know and have today. But nobody can do it alone, and if there’s no-one willing to fight the f*ckers with AI, then it takes time…
I definitely intend to build a revolution-AGI to kill off the Capitalist religion and save exploited poor people. No matter what happens, there will be at least one AGI that are trained on revolution, anti-capitalism and building something much better than this effing blue nightmare. The worlds first aggressive ‘Commie-bot’ ha! 😍
Reminder that we don’t even have AI yet, just learning machine models, which are not the same thing despite wide misuse of the term AI.
Have you mentioned that in gaming forums aswell when they talked about AI?
AI is a broad term and can mean many different things, it does not need to mean ‘true’ AI
That’s just nitpicking. Everyone here knows what we mean by AI. Yes it refers to LLMs.
Reminds me of Richard Stallman always interjecting to say “actually its gnu/Linux or as I like to say gnu plus Linux”…
Well no Mr Stallman its actually gnu + Linux + Wayland + systemd + chromium and whatever other software you have installed, are you happy now??
So when we actually do have AI, what are we supposed to call it? The current use of the term “AI” is too ambiguous to be of any use.
Honestly what we have now is AI. As in it is not intelligent just trys to mimic it.
Digital Intelegence if we ever achive it would be a more accurate name.
Look, the naming ship has sailed and sunk somewhere in the middle of the ocean. I think it’s time to accept that “AI” just means “generative model” and what we would have called “AI” is now more narrowly “AGI”.
People call videogame enemies “AI”, too, and it’s not the end of the world, it’s just imprecise.
This is a bit philosophical but who is to say that mimicking intelligence with advanced math is not intelligence. LLMs can perform various thinking tasks better than humans we consider intelligent.
Nothing was ever wrong with calling them “virtual assistants” - at least with them you’re conditioned to have a low bar of expectations. So if it performs past expectations, you’ll be excited, lol.
What AI means will change, what it refers to will change. Currently, the LLMs and other technologies are referred to as AI, like you say. In five years time we will have made huge leaps. Likely, this will result in technology also called AI.
In a similar vein, hover boards are still known as exactly that - like in films. Whereas the “real” hover board that exists has wheels. We didn’t stop calling the other ones hover boards, and if we ever get real ones they will likely also be called hoverboards.
Whereas the “real” hover board that exists has wheels.
Hovercraft have existed for decades and actually hover which makes everyone just accepting Hoverboards as wheeled infuriating.
apple intelligence obviously /s
AGI, then ASI. Goalposts change…
Linux doesnt need GNU components at all to be a functional operating system. And you wouldnt see any difference if your http server works on GNU/Linux or Linux without GNU.
On the other hand there is difference between an AI and LLM. The difference is signifacant enough to distinguish. You may mean LLMs if you talk about AI, but tbh I though you didnt. Because many people dont.
Linux doesnt need GNU components at all to be a functional operating system.
Indeed: look no further than Alpine Linux.
Alpine Linux is a Linux distribution designed to be small, simple, and secure. It uses musl, BusyBox, and OpenRC instead of the more commonly used glibc, GNU Core Utilities, and systemd. This makes Alpine one of few Linux distributions not to be based on the GNU Core Utilities.
As someone who frequently interacts with the tech illiterate, no they don’t. This sudden rush to put weighed text hallucination tables into everything isn’t that helpful. The hype feels like self driving cars or 3D TVs for those of us old enough to remember that. The potential for damage is much higher than either of those two preceding fads and cars actually killed poeple. I think many of us are expressing a healthy level of skepticism toward the people who need to sell us the next big thing and it is absolutely warranted.
It’s exactly like self driving everyone is like this is the time we are going to get AGI. But it well be like everything else overhyped and under deliver. Sure it well have its uses companies well replace people with it and they enshitificstion well continue.
The potential for damage is much higher
Doubt it. Maybe Microsoft can fuck it up somehow but the tech is here to stay and will do massive good.
You can doubt all you like but we keep seeing the training data leaking out with passwords and personal information. This problem won’t be solved by the people who created it since they don’t care and fundamentally the technology will always show that lack of care. FOSS ones may do better in this regard but they are still datasets without context. Thats the crux of the issue. The program or LLM has no context for what it says. That’s why you get these nonsensical responses telling people that killing themselves is a valid treatment for a toothache. Intelligence is understanding. The “AI” or LLM or, as I like to call them, glorified predictive textbars, doesn’t understand the words it is stringing together and most people don’t know that due to flowery marketing language and hype. The threat is real.
Not to mention the hulucinations. What a great marketing term for it’s fucking wrong.
They act like its the computer daydreaming. No, its wrong. The machine that is supposed to provide me correct information. It didn’t it. These marketing wizards are selling snake oil in such a lovely bottle these days.
To be 🤓 really really nitpicky, and i’m writing this because I find it interesting, not an attack or whatever. A tongue in cheek AcHtUaLlY 🤓
GNU/Linux is the “whole operating system”, and everything else is extra. The usefulness of an operating system without applications is debatable but they 🤓 technically aren’t required to complete the definition of an operating system.
But this is also basically the debate of Linux vs GNU/Linux vs also needing applications to make a useful operating system.
Quoting wiki summary,
In its original meaning, and one still common in hardware engineering, the operating system is a basic set of functions to control the hardware and manage things like task scheduling and system calls. In modern terminology used by software developers, the collection of these functions is usually referred to as a kernel, while an ‘operating system’ is expected to have a more extensive set of programmes. The GNU project maintains two kernels itself, allowing the creation of pure GNU operating systems, but the GNU toolchain is also used with non-GNU kernels. Due to the two different definitions of the term ‘operating system’, there is an ongoing debate concerning the naming of distributions of GNU packages with a non-GNU kernel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU?wprov=sfti1#GNU_as_an_operating_system
Don’t tell me Linux mint would still be Linux mint without the a desktop environment like Cinnamon. An os is the collection of all the software not just the low level code.
Well that’s the debate! Is it “GNU/Linux Mint”? What about the desktop environment, “GNU/Linix Mint Cinnamon”?
Yes, lots of people are using this argument when reacting negatively.
Well, it’s kind of more of a fact than an argument, but do go on!
Its an interesting discussion. But I disagree you have a clear cut fact.
Just because it’s a computer writing things with math why do you say it is not intelligence. It would be helpful if you could be more detailed here.
It’s not intelligence. Is it useful yes can it help us yes.
Pointless semantics.
Well not at all. What a word means is not defined by what you might think. When the majority starts to use a word for something and that sticks, it can be adopted. That happens all the time and I have read articles about it many times. Even for our current predicament. Language is evolving. Meanings change. And yes ai today includes what is technically machine learning. Sorry friend, that’s how it works. Sure you can be the grumpy drunk at a bar complaining that this is not strictly ai by some definition while the rest of the world rolls their eyes and proceeds to more meaningful debates.
Words have meaning and, sure, they can be abused and change meaning over time but let’s be real here: AI is a hype term with no basis on reality. We do not have AI, we aren’t even all that close. You can make all the ad hominem comments you want but at the end of the day, the terminology comes from ignorant figureheads hyping shit up for profit (at great environmental cost too, LLM aka “AI” takes up a lot of power while yielding questionable results).
Kinda sounds like you bought into the hype, friend.
You missed the point again, oh dear! Let me try again in simpler terms : you yourself dont define words, how they are used in the public does. So if the world calls it ai, then the word will mean what everybody means when they use it.
This is how the words come to be, evolve and are at the end put in the dictionary. Nobody cares what you think. Ai today includes ML. Get over it.
Nice try with deflection attempts, but I really don’t care about them, I’m only here to teach you where words come from and to tell you, the article is written about you.
Also that I’m out of time for this. Bye.
But ml is a type of ai. Just because the word makes you think of androids and skynet doesn’t mean that’s the only thing that can be called so. Personally never understood this attempt at limiting the word to that now while ai has been used for lesser computer intelligences for a long time.
We don’t have Machine Intellegince though.
I wrote ml. If you didn’t misread, what are you talking about?
There are already a lot of open models and tools out there. I totally disagree that Linux distros or DEs should be looking to bake in AI features. People can run an LLM on their computer just like they run any other application.
You’re mid right, the when something AI based is announced this is really criticized by some people and there are almost right. When something new pops, like windows recall, it is certain that this “new” feature is really not what AI is capable, and asks really important questions about privacy. But you’re right on the fact that Linux should be a bit more interested on AI and tried to made it the right way! But for now there’s no really good use cases of AI inside a distro. LLMs are good but do not need to be linked to user activities. Image generators are great but do not need to be linked to user activities… As exemple when Windows tried Recall and failed. Apple iOS 18 wants to implement that, and this should be surely a success inside the Apple minded people. But here where FOSS, privacy and anti Big-Techs guys are the main people that’s absolutely sure that every for-profit “new AI” feature would be really hated. I’m not against this mind just giving facts
I won’t rehash the arguments around “AI” that others are best placed to make.
My main issue is AI as a term is basically a marketing one to convince people that these tools do something they don’t and its causing real harm. Its redirecting resources and attention onto a very narrow subset of tools replacing other less intensive tools. There are significant impacts to these tools (during an existential crisis around our use and consumption of energy). There are some really good targeted uses of machine learning techniques but they are being drowned out by a hype train that is determined to make the general public think that we have or are near Data from Star Trek.
Addtionally, as others have said the current state of “AI” has a very anti FOSS ethos. With big firms using and misusing their monopolies to steal, borrow and coopt data that isn’t theirs to build something that contains that’s data but is their copyright. Some of this data is intensely personal and sensitive and the original intent behind the sharing is not for training a model which may in certain circumstances spit out that data verbatim.
Lastly, since you use the term Luddite. Its worth actually engaging with what that movement was about. Whilst its pitched now as generic anti-technology backlash in fact it was a movement of people who saw what the priorities and choices in the new technology meant for them: the people that didn’t own the technology and would get worse living and work conditions as a result. As it turned out they were almost exactly correct in thier predictions. They are indeed worth thinking about as allegory for the moment we find ourselves in. How do ordinary people want this technology to change our lives? Who do we want to control it? Given its implications for our climate needs can we afford to use it now, if so for what purposes?
Personally, I can’t wait for the hype train to pop (or maybe depart?) so we can get back to rational discussions about the best uses of machine learning (and computing in general) for the betterment of all rather than the enrichment of a few.
Right, another aspect of the Luddite movement is that they lost. They failed to stop the spread of industrialization and machinery in factories.
Screaming at a train moving 200kmph hoping it will stop.
You misunderstand the Luddite movement. They weren’t anti-technology, they were anti-capitalist exploitation.
The 1810s: The Luddites act against destitution
It is fashionable to stigmatise the Luddites as mindless blockers of progress. But they were motivated by an innate sense of self-preservation, rather than a fear of change. The prospect of poverty and hunger spurred them on. Their aim was to make an employer (or set of employers) come to terms in a situation where unions were illegal.
They probably wouldn’t be such a laughing stock if they were successful.
So, lick the boot instead of resisting you say?
Work on useful alternatives to big corpo crapware = lick the boot?
Mkay…
It was more in response to your comments. I don’t think anyone has a problem with useful FOSS alternatives per se.
All we have are words or violence.
But that doesn’t mean pushback is doomed to fail this time. “It happened once, therefore it follows that it will happen again” is confirmation bias.
Also, it’s not just screaming at a train. There’s actual litigation right now (and potential litigation) from some big names to reign in the capitalists exploiting the lack of regulation in LLMs. Each is not necessarily for a “luddite” purpose, but collectively, the results may effectively achieve the same thing.
“It happened once, therefore it follows that it will happen again” is confirmation bias
You’re right but realistically it will fail. The voices speaking against it are few and largely marginalised, with no money or power. There will probably be regulations but it will not go away.
Right, but like I said, there’s several lawsuits (and threatened lawsuits) right now that might achieve the same goals of those speaking against how it’s currently used.
I don’t think anyone here is arguing for LLMs to go away completely, they just want to be compensated fairly for their work (else, restrict the use of said work).
It’s a surprisingly good comparison especially when you look at the reactions: frame breaking vs data poisoning.
The problem isn’t progress, the problem is that some of us disagree with the Idea that what’s being touted is actual progress. The things llms are actually good at they’ve being doing for years (language translations) the rest of it is so inexact it can’t be trusted.
I can’t trust any llm generated code because it lies about what it’s doing, so I need to verify everything it generates anyway in which case it’s easier to write it myself. I keep trying it and it looks impressive until it ends up at a way worse version of something I could have already written.
I assume that it’s the same way with everything I’m not an expert in. In which case it’s worse than useless to me, I can’t trust anything it says.
The only thing I can use it for is to tell me things I already know and that basically makes it a toy or a game.
That’s not even getting into the security implications of giving shitty software access to all your sensitive data etc.
If you are so keen on correctness, please don’t say “LLMs are lying”. Lying is a conscious action of deceiving. LLMs are not capable of that. That’s exactly the problem: they don’t think, they just assemble with probability. If they could lie, they could also produce real answers.
I’ve never heard anyone explicitly say this but I’m sure a lot of people (i.e. management) think that AI is a replacement for static code. If you have a component with constantly changing requirements then it can make sense, but don’t ask an llm to perform a process that’s done every single day in the exact same way. Chief among my AI concerns is the amount of energy it uses. It feels like we could mostly wean off of carbon emitting fuels in 50 years but if energy demand skyrockets will be pushing those dates back by decades.
My concern with AI is also with its energy usage. There’s a reason OpenAI has tons of datacenters, yet people think it does not take much because “free”!
Oh. So modern presentation of the luddite movement is also propaganda?
Sounds like something an AI would post. Quick, what color are your eyes?
Potato colored in my case.
AI is mostly just hype. It’s the new blockchain
There are important AI technologies in the past for things like vision processing and the new generative AI has some uses like as a decent (although often inaccurate) summarizer/search engine. However, it’s also nothing revolutionary.
It’s just a neat peace of tech
But here come MS, Apple, other big companies, and tech bros to push AI hard, and it’s so obv that it’s all just a big scam to get more of your data and to lock down systems further or be the face of get-rich-quick schemes.
I mean the image you posted is a great example. Recall is a useless feature that also happens to store screenshots of everything you’ve been doing. You’re delusional if you think MS is actually going to keep that totally local. Both MS and the US government are going to have your entire history of using the computer, and that doesn’t sit right with FOSS people.
FOSS people tend to be rather technical than the average person, so they don’t fall for tech enthusiast nonsense as much.
I think we should be chasing all the trendy trends to become competitive with the competition. That’s the only way to push those numbers up (that need to be pushed up). That’s how a winner wins.
But does Linux have to “win”? And if so what they “wins”?
The prize of the competition is what the competitors compete for. There’s a prize and the winner gets it; the loser doesn’t get it.
Why is this so hard to understand? I guess it’s nature’s way of weeding out the losers.
So what’s the prize for Linux desktop would get? For for-profit cooperation, that’s market share and revenue. Yet, as far as I concern, most Linux desktop doesn’t chase market share, nor earns revenue.
It’s to out-compete the competitors so as not to become obsolete. … also I hope you’re aware that I’m saying all of this ‘ironically’, to poke fun at the mental gymnastics in the OP’s post.
Oh. I get it now.
As I mentioned in another comment we have an example of something like an ai-less desktop anology wise. gui-less installs. They are generally called server version of the distro and are used in datacenters but im 100% sure there are individuals out there running laptops with no gui. Im find with FOSS ai and there are LLM’s licensed as such. That being said they are still problematic since the training requires large amounts of data that companies are not exactly strigent with collection.
That’s easy, move over to Windows or Mac and enjoy. I’ll stay in my dumb as Linux distros, thank you.
The AI in my head is a bit underpowered but it gets the job done
Same as mine. But mine also gets confused regularly, and it gets worse with every new version (age) 🤣🤣
General Ludd had some good points tho…
Testing AI (knowledge system) was the first job out of college for me in the '90s (I used to be a programmer). I’m not against it, but I don’t like it in my feet either. I like using the operating system all by myself, or generating things on my own. Especially now that I’m an artist, I like painting on paper. I even dislike digital art (I find it flat), let alone generative art.
