And if the therapy aligns with their physical gender? No treatment for a girl who goes through puberty too young? Nothing for a girl of 17 who is worried because she hadn’t started “developing” or gotten her period? Nothing for a boy who isn’t going through male puberty, or starts it at 5? Intersex kids who are mis-assigned at birth and panic as adolescents?
Yes the therapies are not without risk, but doing nothing is also not without risk. The only reason doctors will prescribe puberty blockers is if the kids are suffering, otherwise the “care” that is getting outlawed is counseling. I have a trans kid and the doctor prescribed counseling but they can’t get it because the clinics aren’t allowed to “treat” the transgendered now.
And if the therapy aligns with their physical gender? No treatment for a girl who goes through puberty too young? Nothing for a girl of 17 who is worried because she hadn’t started “developing” or gotten her period? Nothing for a boy who isn’t going through male puberty, or starts it at 5? Intersex kids who are mis-assigned at birth and panic as adolescents?
This is EXACTLY the point I’m making. Should we shove steroids into the boy and estrogen into the girl? Push up and padded bras in lieu of boob jobs? Are we in such a hurry to cram drugs down someone’s throat that we can’t let them develop and then make a decision on their own when they are capable of? My original statement is just that. We can’t say one is right when the other isn’t. Provide emotional support and education? Absolutely. Provide drugs and potentially life changing side effects on “proven” yet not thoroughly tested treatments? No. It’s my opinion, sure, but my reasoning is sound.
Yes the therapies are not without risk, but doing nothing is also not without risk. The only reason doctors will prescribe puberty blockers is if the kids are suffering, otherwise the “care” that is getting outlawed is counseling. I have a trans kid and the doctor prescribed counseling but they can’t get it because the clinics aren’t allowed to “treat” the transgendered now.
This is a complex topic. Absolutely counseling should be available and it’s positively evil that someone would block that. I don’t disagree. Many doctors are simply a walking prescription book and will provide what is asked for… so I will typically discount when someone uses doctor prescription as an argument. Kudos to that doctor, though- I respect that.
A great deal of that suffering is from lack in of emotional support. I know it’s common to solve this with drugs but let’s ease off the gas a bit.
This is EXACTLY the point I’m making. Should we shove steroids into the boy and estrogen into the girl? Push up and padded bras in lieu of boob jobs? Are we in such a hurry to cram drugs down someone’s throat that we can’t let them develop and then make a decision on their own when they are capable of? My original statement is just that.
Elsewhere in this thread, you assert that hormones produced during puberty are essential to the cognitive development of these children you seem to care so much about. But now we should make those same children wait nearly a decade – delaying this vital development – until they’re legally adults? Because their developing brains are too underdeveloped to make the decision to seek medical treatment that would allow their brains to develop, as you claim? That’s quite the catch 22.
Out of curiosity, what medical treatments do you consider allowable for minors? Can a student struggling to focus in school take medication for executive function disorders? Bipolar disorder is commonly diagnosed in adolescence, do those individuals have a legal right to seek treatment before their 18th birthdays? Or something that can potentially be treated with over-the-counter medication, like insomnia, or even seasonal allergies? Do we – as you say – cram drugs down these children’s throats, or wait until they’re 18 so we can make sure that they really do want treatment to improve their lives?
After all, maybe those kids are just lazy, want attention, or like staying up late, we better wait until they’re legally adults to make sure they don’t just grow out of it.
It’s a distasteful and disingenuous tone but I’ll break it down:
Elsewhere in this thread, you assert that hormones produced during puberty are essential to the cognitive development of these children you seem to care so much about.
You are combining two statements I made and inferring something incorrectly from it.
First in reference to the hormones and puberty: it’s known that these hormones don’t exclusively develop our sexual attributes. They do, certainly, but that’s not all they do. Many of the drawbacks of taking inhibitors are result of inhibiting this (other) development in our bodies. I believe I referenced the mayo clinics site as an example.
Cognitive development is important. Absolutely. I firmly believe that prior to the age of consent we shouldn’t be in a hurry to medicate away this “problem.” The adolescent should be supported and given access to counseling so they, given sufficient time and information, can make an informed decision.
But now we should make those same children wait nearly a decade – delaying this vital development – until they’re legally adults?
That is roughly what I’m implying- but your math is off unless we are starting this discussion around the age of 6 to 8. Let’s dial down the dramatics here.
I’m omitting your catch 22 as it is circular nonsense.
Out of curiosity, what medical treatments do you consider allowable for minors? … [truncated] …
This is more or less all the same. In short most of the things you have listed can be tested for and quantified. And yes while we can use drugs for treatment - very frequently we employ counseling and other less drastic methods before resorting to drugs. A state of being or sense of self is difficult to test for or quantity. There has been some headway on it but it’s in it’s infancy… so yes my stance on exercising a more methodical and cautious approach remains a reasonable decision.
Nothing disingenuous here, just asking questions so I can better understand your position. It’s clear that you’re passionate about the welfare of children.
I was operating under the assumption that all your statements in this thread were part of a larger argument for your position. I’ll walk through my thought process, hopefully you can correct my inference.
Those hormones are responsible for more than just sexual development. We can’t actually pause our bodies. We are bypassing a part of the development phase and saying “see it started again” when in reality it was just continuing for the remaining period it was supposed to be active for.
Here you state that hormones are essential for more than just sexual development, no disagreement there. The statement was made in the context of a discussion about brain development, correct?
This is EXACTLY the point I’m making. Should we shove steroids into the boy and estrogen into the girl? Push up and padded bras in lieu of boob jobs? Are we in such a hurry to cram drugs down someone’s throat that we can’t let them develop and then make a decision on their own when they are capable of?
Here you imply that individuals whose bodies do not produce the hormones associated with the sex they were assigned at birth should not be given treatment to rectify that.
So I see two claims here: first, that hormones during puberty are required for brain development, and second, that individuals should wait until they are legally adults to receive any kind of hormone-related medical treatment.
A catch-22 is by definition circular nonsense, a paradox that’s only way out leads you right back into it.
So say an individual doesn’t start puberty for whatever reason (which starts on average between ages 8 and 14, according to the NIH). This means, according to your assertion, that their brain will lack the necessary chemicals to mature in the average timescale. Meaning, that at 18 – the age of consent for most of the US and when you assert that an individual is mature enough to make these decisions – their brain will not be mature enough to make that decision. How can they ever get the treatment they need to enable that development if their brain never develops to the point you would be comfortable with them making that decision? Wouldn’t they still be an immature teenager trapped in an adult body, not ready to understand the consequences of their actions? Who gets to make the medical decision for them, if anyone, or are they trapped in some kind of limbo, unable to consent to anything for their entire lives?
And yes while we can use drugs for treatment - very frequently we employ counseling and other less drastic methods before resorting to drugs.
Can you help me find some more information on this? To my knowledge, therapy and counseling are essential parts of treatment for gender dysphoria, but it sounds like there must be doctors recklessly prescribing hormone therapy and I’d love to know more about that so I’m not caught off guard again.
Should we shove steroids into the boy and estrogen into the girl
You’re demonstrating that you don’t know what medical interventions are used for minors. That’s hormone replacement therapy, whereas puberty blockers are a different set of medicines that inhibit estrogens and androgens.
You’re making bad faith arguments and it is hard to take you seriously because I don’t know which of your “examples” are supposed to be “true and useful”.
Making a generic statement to further a conversation is commonplace. It was not to be taken literally. If you are planning on analyzing my figures of speech for fallacies, by all means, be my guest: but it only reinforces my observation from earlier.
You didn’t communicate any of that, and your comment shows a severe lack of understanding of what gender affirming care for minors actually consists of.
Removed by mod
And if the therapy aligns with their physical gender? No treatment for a girl who goes through puberty too young? Nothing for a girl of 17 who is worried because she hadn’t started “developing” or gotten her period? Nothing for a boy who isn’t going through male puberty, or starts it at 5? Intersex kids who are mis-assigned at birth and panic as adolescents?
Yes the therapies are not without risk, but doing nothing is also not without risk. The only reason doctors will prescribe puberty blockers is if the kids are suffering, otherwise the “care” that is getting outlawed is counseling. I have a trans kid and the doctor prescribed counseling but they can’t get it because the clinics aren’t allowed to “treat” the transgendered now.
That’s awful, I hope your family is able to figure something out for your kid
This is EXACTLY the point I’m making. Should we shove steroids into the boy and estrogen into the girl? Push up and padded bras in lieu of boob jobs? Are we in such a hurry to cram drugs down someone’s throat that we can’t let them develop and then make a decision on their own when they are capable of? My original statement is just that. We can’t say one is right when the other isn’t. Provide emotional support and education? Absolutely. Provide drugs and potentially life changing side effects on “proven” yet not thoroughly tested treatments? No. It’s my opinion, sure, but my reasoning is sound.
This is a complex topic. Absolutely counseling should be available and it’s positively evil that someone would block that. I don’t disagree. Many doctors are simply a walking prescription book and will provide what is asked for… so I will typically discount when someone uses doctor prescription as an argument. Kudos to that doctor, though- I respect that.
A great deal of that suffering is from lack in of emotional support. I know it’s common to solve this with drugs but let’s ease off the gas a bit.
Elsewhere in this thread, you assert that hormones produced during puberty are essential to the cognitive development of these children you seem to care so much about. But now we should make those same children wait nearly a decade – delaying this vital development – until they’re legally adults? Because their developing brains are too underdeveloped to make the decision to seek medical treatment that would allow their brains to develop, as you claim? That’s quite the catch 22.
Out of curiosity, what medical treatments do you consider allowable for minors? Can a student struggling to focus in school take medication for executive function disorders? Bipolar disorder is commonly diagnosed in adolescence, do those individuals have a legal right to seek treatment before their 18th birthdays? Or something that can potentially be treated with over-the-counter medication, like insomnia, or even seasonal allergies? Do we – as you say – cram drugs down these children’s throats, or wait until they’re 18 so we can make sure that they really do want treatment to improve their lives?
After all, maybe those kids are just lazy, want attention, or like staying up late, we better wait until they’re legally adults to make sure they don’t just grow out of it.
It’s a distasteful and disingenuous tone but I’ll break it down:
You are combining two statements I made and inferring something incorrectly from it.
First in reference to the hormones and puberty: it’s known that these hormones don’t exclusively develop our sexual attributes. They do, certainly, but that’s not all they do. Many of the drawbacks of taking inhibitors are result of inhibiting this (other) development in our bodies. I believe I referenced the mayo clinics site as an example.
Cognitive development is important. Absolutely. I firmly believe that prior to the age of consent we shouldn’t be in a hurry to medicate away this “problem.” The adolescent should be supported and given access to counseling so they, given sufficient time and information, can make an informed decision.
That is roughly what I’m implying- but your math is off unless we are starting this discussion around the age of 6 to 8. Let’s dial down the dramatics here.
I’m omitting your catch 22 as it is circular nonsense.
This is more or less all the same. In short most of the things you have listed can be tested for and quantified. And yes while we can use drugs for treatment - very frequently we employ counseling and other less drastic methods before resorting to drugs. A state of being or sense of self is difficult to test for or quantity. There has been some headway on it but it’s in it’s infancy… so yes my stance on exercising a more methodical and cautious approach remains a reasonable decision.
Nothing disingenuous here, just asking questions so I can better understand your position. It’s clear that you’re passionate about the welfare of children.
I was operating under the assumption that all your statements in this thread were part of a larger argument for your position. I’ll walk through my thought process, hopefully you can correct my inference.
Here you state that hormones are essential for more than just sexual development, no disagreement there. The statement was made in the context of a discussion about brain development, correct?
Here you imply that individuals whose bodies do not produce the hormones associated with the sex they were assigned at birth should not be given treatment to rectify that.
So I see two claims here: first, that hormones during puberty are required for brain development, and second, that individuals should wait until they are legally adults to receive any kind of hormone-related medical treatment.
A catch-22 is by definition circular nonsense, a paradox that’s only way out leads you right back into it.
So say an individual doesn’t start puberty for whatever reason (which starts on average between ages 8 and 14, according to the NIH). This means, according to your assertion, that their brain will lack the necessary chemicals to mature in the average timescale. Meaning, that at 18 – the age of consent for most of the US and when you assert that an individual is mature enough to make these decisions – their brain will not be mature enough to make that decision. How can they ever get the treatment they need to enable that development if their brain never develops to the point you would be comfortable with them making that decision? Wouldn’t they still be an immature teenager trapped in an adult body, not ready to understand the consequences of their actions? Who gets to make the medical decision for them, if anyone, or are they trapped in some kind of limbo, unable to consent to anything for their entire lives?
Can you help me find some more information on this? To my knowledge, therapy and counseling are essential parts of treatment for gender dysphoria, but it sounds like there must be doctors recklessly prescribing hormone therapy and I’d love to know more about that so I’m not caught off guard again.
You’re demonstrating that you don’t know what medical interventions are used for minors. That’s hormone replacement therapy, whereas puberty blockers are a different set of medicines that inhibit estrogens and androgens.
I’m making an example. Don’t be pedantic.
You’re making bad faith arguments and it is hard to take you seriously because I don’t know which of your “examples” are supposed to be “true and useful”.
Making a generic statement to further a conversation is commonplace. It was not to be taken literally. If you are planning on analyzing my figures of speech for fallacies, by all means, be my guest: but it only reinforces my observation from earlier.
You didn’t communicate any of that, and your comment shows a severe lack of understanding of what gender affirming care for minors actually consists of.
Keeping things ambiguous makes your statements hollow. Expand and express some actual capacity for conversation or don’t bother.