The Supreme Court will hear a case on gender-affirming care in the next term after a flurry of legislation. Lower courts have come to conflicting conclusions when these bans were challenged.
Have any decent sources on that regret or harm done that aren’t debunked by myriad other reputable sources? Scientists research all kinds of unpopular things, so it should be easy to show.
At risk of getting myself banned (I guess a litmus test for myself to see how zealous the mods are here), one of the pioneering studies done in the field ended in suicide.
An experiment was performed on an unknowing child by raising him as a girl, following his botched circumcision, with disastrous results.
How is this relevant to the issue of transgender health care? Sounds like a pretty good study of why infant circumcision is bad but it doesn’t seem like an example of trans health care causing harm.
Its is relevant in a bass ackwards way. It shows that gender is innate and not a social construct based on how you were raised. Of course the logical conclusion is the exact opposite of what the OP guy believes.
The thing is, this story you mention isn’t a situation of trans health care; this is a situation of actual child abuse. The parents literally forced a gender identity onto their child who seems to have otherwise been cisgender. It’s not all that different from what conservative parents will often do with their actual trans children.
If anything, this story shows the harms that come by denying gender-affirming care to children. That child was not a girl, and denying him of his identity caused irreparable damage. All because the parents were too scared to tell their child that the doctor fucked up the circumcision.
Unfortunately, right out of the gate you were complaining about people labelling folks as bigots, claim that arguments against trans care are being censored and then fail to provide evidence for why we should ban trans health care. This makes it really difficult to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re arguing in good faith out of concern for children’s wellbeing.
The sad reality is that many people arguing against trans care are in fact bigots and trans issues have been turned into a political football to the detriment of all trans people including children. If you have real concerns about children’s well being and want to be taken seriously, you need to state plainly what your key concerns are and allow space for being wrong. Otherwise, because of the nature of discussion around this issue in the public sphere, people may assume that you’re bigoted against trans people, rightly or wrongly.
Maybe it’s a good time to ask yourself why you find these arguments that you’ve been bringing up convincing specifically for the issue of trans health care.
If you are concerned with the welfare of children, surely the most sensible thing is to allow doctors to be in charge of their healthcare rather than banning things and reducing the options doctors have for taking care of them.
If you are concerned with the welfare of children, surely the most sensible thing is to allow doctors to be in charge of their healthcare rather than banning things and reducing the options doctors have for taking care of them.
Are you suggesting that there’s an epidemic of undiagnosed MSP and that it’s the cause of trans children existing? Because if so, you’re probably gonna need to venture past Page 1 of your Google searches to break that one down for us.
This is not a pioneering study done in the field, jfc. This isn’t a transgender story, this is a story of abuse. Did you read the article? Did you do any research into this at all? Did you at least read his biography? Because I have. To summarize: David was born a cisgendered man whose doctors botched his circumcision so badly he needed reconstructive surgery. His parents consulted a sexologist they saw on TV (the now disgraced John Money), and he convinced the parents to give David a sex change. Not for David’s benefit mind you, but because the sexologist wanted to make a name for himself based on his theories on gender being easily malleable (and he briefly did, until the truth came out). A lot of gross messed up stuff happened, like the sexologist would make David roleplay sex with his twin brother I shit you not. He would make them watch hetero porn with him. And then he would make them get into sexual positions and make them playact sex together. He also took photos (and I think video) of these two children simulating sex.
So to summarize real quick, the pedo-sexologist who committed acts of psychological, medical and sexual abuse on these children, is your “pioneering study” guy. Let me guess, you thought that John Money was a success and that he proved his theory that gender identity is easily manipulated? I’ve seen this exact anti-trans disinformation twist before, along with thinking David was trans (he wasn’t) and pointing out David’s “trans suicide”. You should be more suspicious of your sources for information. By the 90s we already knew John Moneys work with David was useless. And the disinfo machine loves to leave out a very important fact: Davids brother Brian killed himself two years before David took his own life. I guess the suicide of the depressed cisgendered brother who never transitioned muddies the trans-suicide agenda being pushed.
Whenever I see his story pop up, the terfs (and the unfortunately misinformed) end up erroneously thinking this is a story of a trans kid who killed themself. Disinfo will say this story proves that you can manipulate someone into believing they’re a different gender then they know themselves to be. And look! Disinfo swears theres reputable science papers by John Money to back this up! ha.
David was a straight, cisgendered man. His story is not a transgender story. It’s many other things; a story of child abuse, medical abuse, psychological abuse and sexual abuse. It’s the a story of a cisgendered person experiencing gender dysphoria and not understanding why. To me, what his story really shows us is that a persons personal sense of gender is an innate and pervasive thing; a complex combination of mind and body that persists; no matter how much abuse you throw at it. Because even though David was raised to believe he was a woman; had his role as a woman constantly being reinforced by his entire world, had everyone in his life telling him he was a woman, he still knew he was a man and deeply struggled to understand why he felt that way.
I have seen so many talks by and interviews with people who claim to have deconverted from evolution. They all claim pretty similar stuff. Sometimes eeriely similar. Often they talk about being angry. Then they’ll go on to claim that they directed that anger at god, that that was why they bought into the ‘lie’ of evolution and that all atheiests are just like they were, angry at god. It’s funny how closely what they talk about resembles the strawman young earth creationists believe about atheiests and secularists and all those things those people wish where true about us.
I find this very strange because with such large numbers involved on both sides there should , purely statisticly speaking, be a reasonably decent pool of converts each way just down to chance and circumstance. Yet they keep resorting to pushing people who don’t remotely understand the mindset of the groups they claimed they once were part of. Despite that they keep troting them out like they’re a prized bull.
I have seen incel channels full of interviews with random people on the street where they were pushing a narrative of rampent misandry. Interview after interview of women chippily admiting to very hateful stuff about men on camera without an ounce of shame. But of course they wouldn’t have shame they were answering very carefully crafted hypotheticals that they thought were asked in good faith. A few decptive edits to remove their reasonable response’s context and all of a sudden the incels have justification for their anger. The interviews get shared around and around by people who have already decided where they stand but want vindication for their bigotry. ‘Look how common that hate for men is’ they cry, clearly showing how rarely they talk to other people.
I have listened to talks by people who have claimed to have seen the edge of the world or have claimed to have the alien corpses kept at Roswell. I have read statements by someone claiming that they went to a cancer ward, convinced the doctors to inject all the patients with their essential oils which cured everyone of their cancer. I have listened to interviews with anti vaxers claiming to have personally seen wards full of ‘vaccine causalties’ that’s being covered up somehow.
Have some people switched from accepting evolution to young earth creationism? It has to have happened at some point.
Are their some misandrists out there? There has to be.
Are they anywhere near as prevelant as either of those two groups pretend? Absolutely not. They have a vested interest in pushing the idea that both those things are far more common than they are.
Interviews are just ancedotes and no matter how many ancedotes you horde they will never coalesce into evidence.
Do some transgender people regret transitioning? It has to have happened at least once just based off numbers alone
Are there a lot? No there aren’t. To an actually surprising degree. But that surprising degree shouldn’t actually be that surprsining; You see before all the irreversible medical procedures there is a bunch of indepth psychological evaluations aimed at filtering out people who would regret it later. We’ve actually gotten pretty good at that. Not that it’s that hard there tends to be some strong and obvious indicators.
So I will pose a hypothetical of my own; Even if there was a lot of regretful trangender folk is the answer to ban trans health care altogether or invest in better evaluations and better understanding of it?
Of course there are individuals who regret it. There are individuals who regret any decision one can possibly make in life. But it’s worth noting that, statistically, the regret rates for gender affirming surgeries are among the lowest of any medical intervention done anywhere in the world, by a large margin.
I know you’ve heard their stories, because there are people with very specific agendas who are dedicated to weaponizing their stories. But it’s useful to remember that the plural of “anecdote” is not “data”.
the number of transitioned people who were harmed by the process is significantly less than the people who feel it improved their life significantly.
there are failures across all medical procedures, you don’t see people denying appendectomies to people because a few people died?
get over yourself and let people live their best life
We’re talking about kids here. Kids brains aren’t fully developed yet. That’s why we don’t let them drive, drink, smoke, or consent to sex. If they want a sex change, just let them do it when they become an adult
That is exactly what gender affirming care for youths is. Its basically staving off puberty until they are old enough to determine that they really do want medical transisition.
What if stopping those hormones also pauses development that might change what they believe they are? There was a recent study that shows there is a sizeable chunk of youths that decrease their gender non-contentedness as they age. There is also a group that it grows with age. It would be an interesting study to see if these numbers stay the same with puberty blockers. If zero kids on puberty blockers decide not to transition that would be pretty telling.
If zero kids on puberty blockers decide not to transition that would be pretty telling.
Maybe, if that were anywhere close to what is actually happening. In reality, there are more cisgender children taking puberty blockers than there are trans children taking them, so the number of kids deciding not to transition after taking blockers is >50%. Your speculation is baseless.
That wasn’t speculation, I was just curious. If that’s actually the case that’s great. And of course it’s lemmy so I’ll get downvoted for any honest questions.
Unfortunately, honest questions are indistinguishable from the horde of transphobes spreading misinformation and sowing uncertainty under the guise of “just asking questions” (sealioning).
If you are genuinely curious, then I recommend starting with the Wikipedia article on puberty blockers, and also reading the one on precocious puberty which is a condition in very young children that is treated by the same drugs. (Tellingly, this usage is non-controversial and exempted from all of the new laws banning puberty blockers for trans children.)
Age to drive: 16? Still a teenager
Age of consent: varies by state but is generally around 15 or so.
Smoke: gross. But I never heard of a teenager having much problems acquiring tobacco, alcohol, or weed.
Kids in my daughter’s middle school were vaping. According to my daughter, a kid’s mom was selling vapes through them to kids in the school. There will always be a market to sell kids contraband and plenty of kids will be happy to pay a premium for it regardless of what their parents say.
But in this case, with gender affirming care, it’s generally a case where the parents also want the child to have that care. It’s being denied despite what the parents, the child, and even their doctor wants.
Oh look, a conservative who knows nothing about the thing they’re loudly bitching about.
Trans healthcare is FAR more than genital surgery, in fact thats a pretty small segment overall. Especially with teens were largely talking about therapy more than anything, and OCCASIONALLY easily reversible treatments like hormone blockers. NOBODY is out here slicing up children’s genitals (except the circumcision folk of course, which y’all are conveniently silent about)
No, it doesn’t. With exception to extreme outlier situations (where generally the youngest such an operation can be done is at 15), gender assignment surgeries are not being done on minors.
Do you realize you’re on the Internet? You can use the Internet to look up if things are true or not. Like how what you’re insisting is true actually isn’t.
You can check your leftwing fact checkers if it makes you feel better, but I’ve seen numerous people interview that had these procedures done as minors only to grow up to regret it
there are plenty of articles about regrets and resources about detransition, those who get shouted down usually try to use ridiculously low regret rates as reasoning to limit access to healthcare. marriage has a 43% regret rate, why isn’t your energy spent there instead?
Wut?
Removed by mod
Have any decent sources on that regret or harm done that aren’t debunked by myriad other reputable sources? Scientists research all kinds of unpopular things, so it should be easy to show.
At risk of getting myself banned (I guess a litmus test for myself to see how zealous the mods are here), one of the pioneering studies done in the field ended in suicide.
How is this relevant to the issue of transgender health care? Sounds like a pretty good study of why infant circumcision is bad but it doesn’t seem like an example of trans health care causing harm.
Its is relevant in a bass ackwards way. It shows that gender is innate and not a social construct based on how you were raised. Of course the logical conclusion is the exact opposite of what the OP guy believes.
The thing is, this story you mention isn’t a situation of trans health care; this is a situation of actual child abuse. The parents literally forced a gender identity onto their child who seems to have otherwise been cisgender. It’s not all that different from what conservative parents will often do with their actual trans children.
If anything, this story shows the harms that come by denying gender-affirming care to children. That child was not a girl, and denying him of his identity caused irreparable damage. All because the parents were too scared to tell their child that the doctor fucked up the circumcision.
Removed by mod
Unfortunately, right out of the gate you were complaining about people labelling folks as bigots, claim that arguments against trans care are being censored and then fail to provide evidence for why we should ban trans health care. This makes it really difficult to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re arguing in good faith out of concern for children’s wellbeing.
The sad reality is that many people arguing against trans care are in fact bigots and trans issues have been turned into a political football to the detriment of all trans people including children. If you have real concerns about children’s well being and want to be taken seriously, you need to state plainly what your key concerns are and allow space for being wrong. Otherwise, because of the nature of discussion around this issue in the public sphere, people may assume that you’re bigoted against trans people, rightly or wrongly.
Maybe it’s a good time to ask yourself why you find these arguments that you’ve been bringing up convincing specifically for the issue of trans health care.
If you are concerned with the welfare of children, surely the most sensible thing is to allow doctors to be in charge of their healthcare rather than banning things and reducing the options doctors have for taking care of them.
Straight up facts!
Are you suggesting that there’s an epidemic of undiagnosed MSP and that it’s the cause of trans children existing? Because if so, you’re probably gonna need to venture past Page 1 of your Google searches to break that one down for us.
This is not a pioneering study done in the field, jfc. This isn’t a transgender story, this is a story of abuse. Did you read the article? Did you do any research into this at all? Did you at least read his biography? Because I have. To summarize: David was born a cisgendered man whose doctors botched his circumcision so badly he needed reconstructive surgery. His parents consulted a sexologist they saw on TV (the now disgraced John Money), and he convinced the parents to give David a sex change. Not for David’s benefit mind you, but because the sexologist wanted to make a name for himself based on his theories on gender being easily malleable (and he briefly did, until the truth came out). A lot of gross messed up stuff happened, like the sexologist would make David roleplay sex with his twin brother I shit you not. He would make them watch hetero porn with him. And then he would make them get into sexual positions and make them playact sex together. He also took photos (and I think video) of these two children simulating sex.
So to summarize real quick, the pedo-sexologist who committed acts of psychological, medical and sexual abuse on these children, is your “pioneering study” guy. Let me guess, you thought that John Money was a success and that he proved his theory that gender identity is easily manipulated? I’ve seen this exact anti-trans disinformation twist before, along with thinking David was trans (he wasn’t) and pointing out David’s “trans suicide”. You should be more suspicious of your sources for information. By the 90s we already knew John Moneys work with David was useless. And the disinfo machine loves to leave out a very important fact: Davids brother Brian killed himself two years before David took his own life. I guess the suicide of the depressed cisgendered brother who never transitioned muddies the trans-suicide agenda being pushed.
Whenever I see his story pop up, the terfs (and the unfortunately misinformed) end up erroneously thinking this is a story of a trans kid who killed themself. Disinfo will say this story proves that you can manipulate someone into believing they’re a different gender then they know themselves to be. And look! Disinfo swears theres reputable science papers by John Money to back this up! ha.
David was a straight, cisgendered man. His story is not a transgender story. It’s many other things; a story of child abuse, medical abuse, psychological abuse and sexual abuse. It’s the a story of a cisgendered person experiencing gender dysphoria and not understanding why. To me, what his story really shows us is that a persons personal sense of gender is an innate and pervasive thing; a complex combination of mind and body that persists; no matter how much abuse you throw at it. Because even though David was raised to believe he was a woman; had his role as a woman constantly being reinforced by his entire world, had everyone in his life telling him he was a woman, he still knew he was a man and deeply struggled to understand why he felt that way.
further reading/citations:
the 1997 medical paper & review of Moneys work that, along with Davids testimony, began to shed light on this: http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1997-sex-reassignment.html
Davids biography: As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised As A Girl by John Colapinto
a more detailed and damning article from 2017: https://embryo.asu.edu/pages/david-reimer-and-john-money-gender-reassignment-controversy-johnjoan-case
a very disturbing amount of detail of what happened for those that can handle it: https://www.simplypsychology.org/david-reimer.html
and finally wikipedia for those that hate fancy links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money#Sex_reassignment_of_David_Reimer
Can you imagine the harm that would have happened if he just so happened to be transgender?
I’ve seen plenty of them get interviewed. Anyone saying they don’t exist just aren’t being honest with you
I have seen so many talks by and interviews with people who claim to have deconverted from evolution. They all claim pretty similar stuff. Sometimes eeriely similar. Often they talk about being angry. Then they’ll go on to claim that they directed that anger at god, that that was why they bought into the ‘lie’ of evolution and that all atheiests are just like they were, angry at god. It’s funny how closely what they talk about resembles the strawman young earth creationists believe about atheiests and secularists and all those things those people wish where true about us.
I find this very strange because with such large numbers involved on both sides there should , purely statisticly speaking, be a reasonably decent pool of converts each way just down to chance and circumstance. Yet they keep resorting to pushing people who don’t remotely understand the mindset of the groups they claimed they once were part of. Despite that they keep troting them out like they’re a prized bull.
I have seen incel channels full of interviews with random people on the street where they were pushing a narrative of rampent misandry. Interview after interview of women chippily admiting to very hateful stuff about men on camera without an ounce of shame. But of course they wouldn’t have shame they were answering very carefully crafted hypotheticals that they thought were asked in good faith. A few decptive edits to remove their reasonable response’s context and all of a sudden the incels have justification for their anger. The interviews get shared around and around by people who have already decided where they stand but want vindication for their bigotry. ‘Look how common that hate for men is’ they cry, clearly showing how rarely they talk to other people.
I have listened to talks by people who have claimed to have seen the edge of the world or have claimed to have the alien corpses kept at Roswell. I have read statements by someone claiming that they went to a cancer ward, convinced the doctors to inject all the patients with their essential oils which cured everyone of their cancer. I have listened to interviews with anti vaxers claiming to have personally seen wards full of ‘vaccine causalties’ that’s being covered up somehow.
Have some people switched from accepting evolution to young earth creationism? It has to have happened at some point. Are their some misandrists out there? There has to be. Are they anywhere near as prevelant as either of those two groups pretend? Absolutely not. They have a vested interest in pushing the idea that both those things are far more common than they are. Interviews are just ancedotes and no matter how many ancedotes you horde they will never coalesce into evidence.
Do some transgender people regret transitioning? It has to have happened at least once just based off numbers alone Are there a lot? No there aren’t. To an actually surprising degree. But that surprising degree shouldn’t actually be that surprsining; You see before all the irreversible medical procedures there is a bunch of indepth psychological evaluations aimed at filtering out people who would regret it later. We’ve actually gotten pretty good at that. Not that it’s that hard there tends to be some strong and obvious indicators. So I will pose a hypothetical of my own; Even if there was a lot of regretful trangender folk is the answer to ban trans health care altogether or invest in better evaluations and better understanding of it?
Of course there are individuals who regret it. There are individuals who regret any decision one can possibly make in life. But it’s worth noting that, statistically, the regret rates for gender affirming surgeries are among the lowest of any medical intervention done anywhere in the world, by a large margin.
I know you’ve heard their stories, because there are people with very specific agendas who are dedicated to weaponizing their stories. But it’s useful to remember that the plural of “anecdote” is not “data”.
the number of transitioned people who were harmed by the process is significantly less than the people who feel it improved their life significantly. there are failures across all medical procedures, you don’t see people denying appendectomies to people because a few people died? get over yourself and let people live their best life
We’re talking about kids here. Kids brains aren’t fully developed yet. That’s why we don’t let them drive, drink, smoke, or consent to sex. If they want a sex change, just let them do it when they become an adult
This regurgitated propaganda brought to you by the same minds who fabricated “partial birth abortions”.
Yes, that’s correct. They need puberty blockers, so they can make the decision when their old enough instead of having that decision forced upon them.
Why are you comparing being trans to drinking and smoking?
That is exactly what gender affirming care for youths is. Its basically staving off puberty until they are old enough to determine that they really do want medical transisition.
What if stopping those hormones also pauses development that might change what they believe they are? There was a recent study that shows there is a sizeable chunk of youths that decrease their gender non-contentedness as they age. There is also a group that it grows with age. It would be an interesting study to see if these numbers stay the same with puberty blockers. If zero kids on puberty blockers decide not to transition that would be pretty telling.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02817-5#:~:text=Moreover%2C we identified three different,gender non-contentedness
Maybe, if that were anywhere close to what is actually happening. In reality, there are more cisgender children taking puberty blockers than there are trans children taking them, so the number of kids deciding not to transition after taking blockers is >50%. Your speculation is baseless.
That wasn’t speculation, I was just curious. If that’s actually the case that’s great. And of course it’s lemmy so I’ll get downvoted for any honest questions.
Unfortunately, honest questions are indistinguishable from the horde of transphobes spreading misinformation and sowing uncertainty under the guise of “just asking questions” (sealioning).
If you are genuinely curious, then I recommend starting with the Wikipedia article on puberty blockers, and also reading the one on precocious puberty which is a condition in very young children that is treated by the same drugs. (Tellingly, this usage is non-controversial and exempted from all of the new laws banning puberty blockers for trans children.)
You were never a teenager, were you?
Age to drive: 16? Still a teenager Age of consent: varies by state but is generally around 15 or so. Smoke: gross. But I never heard of a teenager having much problems acquiring tobacco, alcohol, or weed.
Kids in my daughter’s middle school were vaping. According to my daughter, a kid’s mom was selling vapes through them to kids in the school. There will always be a market to sell kids contraband and plenty of kids will be happy to pay a premium for it regardless of what their parents say.
But in this case, with gender affirming care, it’s generally a case where the parents also want the child to have that care. It’s being denied despite what the parents, the child, and even their doctor wants.
What kind of question is that?
A rhetorical one. I am guessing most people understood that.
Oh look, a conservative who knows nothing about the thing they’re loudly bitching about.
Trans healthcare is FAR more than genital surgery, in fact thats a pretty small segment overall. Especially with teens were largely talking about therapy more than anything, and OCCASIONALLY easily reversible treatments like hormone blockers. NOBODY is out here slicing up children’s genitals (except the circumcision folk of course, which y’all are conveniently silent about)
That’s already how it works. You’re angry at a thing that doesn’t exist and that nobody is suggesting.
I’m not angry at all and it does exist
No, it doesn’t. With exception to extreme outlier situations (where generally the youngest such an operation can be done is at 15), gender assignment surgeries are not being done on minors.
Do you realize you’re on the Internet? You can use the Internet to look up if things are true or not. Like how what you’re insisting is true actually isn’t.
https://www.factcheck.org/2023/05/scicheck-young-children-do-not-receive-medical-gender-transition-treatment/
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/what-medical-treatments-do-transgender-youth-get
You can check your leftwing fact checkers if it makes you feel better, but I’ve seen numerous people interview that had these procedures done as minors only to grow up to regret it
ROFLMAO
Sources or STFU.
Well, that’s because they’re generally blatantly lying about it.
there are plenty of articles about regrets and resources about detransition, those who get shouted down usually try to use ridiculously low regret rates as reasoning to limit access to healthcare. marriage has a 43% regret rate, why isn’t your energy spent there instead?
Hell I regret my career at least once a week
At least twice per week (always at 6am) for me.