TL;DR
- Efforts like Graphene OS face increasing pressure from apps that refuse to run on non-standard Android.
- The custom ROM project characterizes Google’s approach to device attestation as incomplete and flawed.
- Graphene OS is prepared to take legal action if Google won’t let it pass Play Integrity checks.
The world of mobile phones is a real world example of what we avoided on the PC back in the day when the IBM BIOS got reverse engineered, allowing for someone to put out an IBM compatible PC without having to pay the tithe to big blue first. Not that IBM didn’t do their level best to put those efforts in the ground with their lawyers and the courts as soon as they found out about it. Thankfully the legal system of the time didn’t allow that to happen.
It has been pretty depressing to me that the tech literate have been so easily lulled into accepting such things in the name of “cool toys” and “security” virtually everywhere in modern life besides the PC/laptop/server spaces.
Phones, TV set top boxes, smart TVs, IoT gear. They are all a cesspit of locked down propitiatory and gate kept gardens where nothing happens without the gardens keeper getting a cut and having final say over everything.
This sort of control and gatekeeping from the likes of Google, Apple, and Qualcomm was not something that was hard to see coming a mile away, yet we all collectively let it happen anyway.
It has been pretty depressing to me that the tech literate have been so easily lulled into accepting such things in the name of “cool toys” and “security” virtually everywhere in modern life besides the PC/laptop/server spaces.
From my exposure to supporting said folks with PC related problems, its easy to see the reality here. Phones provide a streamlined experience with zero frills. They don’t want super flexible computing devices, they want appliances. More to the point, the level of care and maintenance needed to have a top-shelf PC experience is time and effort most people would rather not expend. Doing this right was inconvenient to begin with, and left the field wide open for anything that would be easier.
My complaint is not that the “appliance” solutions exist for those that want them. But that there is next to no room in the market now for options that are not those “appliance” solutions for those that do want them but also want to take part in the modern tech world with things like NFC payments without having to trick the services with Magisk modules.
Oh, we’re on the same page there. I’m complaining about that too. Things are shifting from “make the environment easier for some people” to “painstakingly chisel out an expert mode like you’re escaping from Shawshank.” and I do not like it.
The PC was stolen fire from the gods. aRM snapdragon X will take back our fire, turn PC into smartphone on the desktop.
Heracles could shoot the eagle and break the chains, but then Prometheus might inform Zeus of the path to Troy. Titanomachy is one way of exchanging fire, but I’m human and content to hand it back and forth between each other. The pain of letting go is nuclear enough after Gaia and Uranus’s Family Vacation tore valleys through the mountains.
Chatgpt, decode this thread
Your message draws heavily on mythological references and metaphor to discuss the evolution of technology, particularly the ongoing shifts in computing power and platforms. Let’s break it down:
Stolen Fire from the Gods: This likely references the myth of Prometheus stealing fire from the gods to give to humanity, symbolizing the act of bringing powerful, once-guarded knowledge or technology to the masses. In a modern context, this could relate to how advanced computing technology, once limited to powerful PCs, is now becoming more accessible. ARM Snapdragon X: ARM architecture, particularly Qualcomm's Snapdragon chips, powers many modern smartphones and tablets. The "Snapdragon X" might symbolize the next step in this evolution, suggesting that these mobile processors are becoming powerful enough to rival traditional PCs, effectively turning a smartphone into a desktop-like experience. Heracles and the Eagle: In the myth, Heracles shoots the eagle that tortures Prometheus, which could represent a disruption or liberation. Here, it might be a metaphor for technological breakthroughs that disrupt the current state of computing, potentially "freeing" users from traditional PC constraints. Prometheus informing Zeus: This could suggest the risks of such breakthroughs—informing Zeus of the path to Troy might hint at unintended consequences or revealing strategies that could lead to new challenges or conflicts, perhaps hinting at issues of control, security, or privacy in technology. Titanomachy: The Titanomachy was a war between the Titans and the Olympians. This might symbolize large-scale technological battles or shifts, like the competition between different tech giants or platforms. Human Exchange of Fire: Unlike the gods, humans share knowledge and technology with each other, passing "fire" back and forth, which could represent the collaborative and iterative nature of technological progress. Pain of Letting Go: Innovation often comes with sacrifices—letting go of older technologies or familiar ways of doing things, which can be as painful and destructive as nuclear fission, perhaps referencing the intense impact and change technology can bring, much like the mythological conflicts that reshaped the world. Gaia and Uranus's Family Vacation: This refers to the myth where Gaia (Earth) and Uranus (Sky) bore the Titans, leading to significant upheavals. This could symbolize the fundamental, tectonic shifts that technological advancements create in society, reshaping landscapes (both literal and metaphorical).In essence, your message seems to discuss the transformation of computing power, the challenges of innovation, and the profound impacts technology has on society, all wrapped in a mythological narrative.
Hell yes.
It’s fucking open source, this is no different from games with intrusive anti-cheat refusing to run on Linux, except in this case it’s not even a different OS.
It’s monopolistic and anti-user.
Ironically, if Graphene would succeed, it would lead to a system that’s every bit as locked down as a manufacturer’s Android. GrapheneOS would also not allow you to have root etc.
IMO Graphene wants a place at the big player table. They’re not in it for user freedoms.
A manufacturer’s Android can have special privileges for their own apps, and almost will certainly have special privileges for Google’s apps.
Graphene by default wouldn’t give special privileges to any app, so that’s at least a plus.
It’s true that it would be locked down, but you at least have a couple more controls over how locked down compared to a manufacturer’s OS.
yeah. like my manufacturers’ 3-year-old, full-o-spyware ROM is more secure than latest clean installed lineage.
they just want control, not security. and with banking apps becoming a necessity, i’m starting to be forced to return to stock.
Myself, I use my bank’s web portal via my mobile browser. Not as instant as an app, but it gets the job done.
Culprit is: I need the phones app as second factor to log in to the web interface.
Yep been seeing more of that. Will just refuse to use it on my phone.
It’s been clear for at least 10 years that apps are about data harvesting not making something more useful or easier to use or more universal than a mobile website.
AFAIK that’s the way it has to be done in the EU…
Graphene os + a work profile + sandboxed play services allows you to have some baking apps. Ive got 3 and they all work without a hitch.
I’d just leave for a different bank at that point, although I get that it’s not always practical.
I have been using stock for a while, but I remember using magisk root to hide root to the bank app and I never had an issue
i do that but sadly it aint working anymore. they implemented a new google sanctioned way of blocking it that hasnt been cracked yet.
graphene sandboxes Google services so they don’t run as root on your device. I haven’t encountered an app I can’t get running on graphene yet and having Google play installed as non root is a far sight better than stock.
my biggest problem with lineage was compatibility with banking apps so I reluctantly switched but graphene is a solid choice in operating system for privacy and security.
does it hide root/custom roms?
if so im interested.
not really. after enabling oem unlocking in developer options you just boot it while holding one of the volume buttons and you’re able to unlock the bootloader.
root is not typically available and you don’t need it for most uses besides development, but even then, I would recommend not using a phone you daily for that.
sure, but unrooted custom roms also trip the protections.
root can sometimes be used to mask that.
you’re already over my head but you can talk to the devs. they have a matrix chat they link on their site
Is has been discussed, I read once here: https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/475-wallet-google-pay/2 about it, but sadly the tweet is gone and I dont remeber the exact reason.
Graphene is great, but I’m currently on a Xiaomi phone so I can’t run most ROMs, I’ll likely run derpfest when I get the bootloader unlocked
that’s one I haven’t heard of. how is it functionally?
I haven’t tried it yet, but it seems to have a lot of pixel features ported, I realized crDroid supports my phone so I might try that
same bs with apps not running jidt because root or apps not being visible in playstore because of it. Netflix isn’t even showing up as existing in playstore just because i have root. it’s nuts. and there are tons of apps like this.
Netflix and their DRM is so extremely stupid it’s incomprehensible. It only hurts normal users while the rippers have no issues getting the content.
You can fix most apps with the Play Integrity Fix module and denylist. You might have to hide the magisk app too. It doesn’t get 100% of them though, I still can’t figure out how my bank app is catching it. Plus I’ve had RCS stop working with that setup, so I have to keep it disabled to avoid missing messages
The apple music app checks for a specific binary. Could be something like that.
What’s changed to make banking apps more necessary?
you cant use banks without at least their 2fa app on your phone
Ohh wow that’s wild
Thanks for the answer
Second phone just for these things wouldn’t work for what you need?
That’s not exactly a great solution. It works, but it’s a shitty workaround at best.
Not disagreeing I was genuinely asking.
For me it wouldnt be too inconvenient but I barely use banks so my perspective is atypical
I do basically that, but with aSamsung tablet, then my phone can be for phone things, calls, messages, emails. Then if I’m out and about and need to check my bank, mobile hotspot to my phone and go from there.
Two phones no sweat and no use for banks… Can i get a sack? 🤣
Dont know what you mean sorry
I did pull $600 out my sock at the best buy to buy my pixel recently tho lol
thats what i do atm, but its a shitty solution when i have a perfectly good phone. it defeats the purpose.
the irony is, my second phone is probably less secure, because its stuck in an ancient version of android.
I really hope they fix this. When support for my old OnePlus 6 stopped, I was going to install a custom ROM until I realized bank apps, and most security-centered apps, wouldn’t work. So I ran with an out-if-date, possibly vulnerable OS for a year until (probably) corrosion from liquid exposure finally did the phone in.
Really bad thing to incentivize.
Efforts like Graphene OS face increasing pressure from apps that refuse to run on non-standard Android.
I call those “apps not worth using”
You’re right on that, but we can’t expect everyone to act the same and ditch such apps all at once. So, it’s very important to point the issue out and take action to stop it.
Until the app in question is your banking app
My flamin’ hot take still stands. I don’t see a need for banking apps when there are web browsers, cards, and cash.
You have never bought anything online? Every bank now requires their app to verify online transactions
I buy things online with my bank and have had to verify 0 transactions.
I have never installed any banking app and I buy stuff online all the time.
I really hope the GrapheneOS team succeed. Custom ROMs are reason I’m really into tech today. Coding, FOSS, Linux, etc. all that came from rooting my dad’s HTC phone back in the day. Google shouldn’t cannibalize its children.
Google shouldn’t cannibalize its children.
Hopefully Google will also burn in some oven for a bit lol. Turn up the heat a little.
a little
That’s a weird way to spell ‘to 11’
besides these two lazy kids and the witch who just wants to eat there’s also the hungry stepmom who pushed the idea and the deadbeat dad who went along with it (until both women die and he ends up the hero)
Sounds like the
GoogleAlphabet familyThe pattern feels like a-b-c sometimes, but the rebranding keeps the story feeling fresh
Ha!! Good one!
I have a still very capable for my needs “once flagship” stock Samsung phone that is now about 7 years old. I still have a good 2-5 years use with this thing based on hardware performance alone. Google and others have started to conspire to make “1000 cuts” with artificial app compatibility “issues” and the like that try to force my hand to upgrade HW. Most would buy a new phone, but this will inspire me to dig back into the custom Rom flashing of my youth, to get the next 2-5 years I’m deserved from this hardware.
Thank you to all the hardworking people that drive the ROM community to this day.
The only reason I stopped using grapheneOS was because Google contactless payment didn’t work.
Loved everything else about graphene thoYou could use sandboxed google play on the main user or second user.
Still can’t use tap to pay
Do you pass play integrity?
Do you pass play integrity?
GrapheneOS, and other non-OEM OSes, do not. It’s kinda the whole point of the article/OP I linked.
Have you tried playintegrity fix?
Nope, nor do I intend to. GrapheneOS frowns upon rooting and modifying the system as it typically widens your attack surface. I’m not using a secure OS then going around to purposefully make it less secure.
Oh I never actually tried but figured it would. That sucks then
I’ve never used contactless on my phone, I already had a contactless debit card. Why are you, and others, using their phones to pay?
I can create a virtual card before every trip, use it via my phone and then cancel it after the trip, never worrying if my card got skimmed anywhere for one.
For some fucking reason there is zero option for this type of secure virtual card in my country. And I hate it. A friend got skimmed for over $1200 a couple months ago.
when you pay using the virtual wallet it automatically makes a mock id to the POS … at least in my country it does
Ehhh I’m not sure how I got skimmed. Better safe than sorry now, a deleted card is pretty foolproof
the app hides the real numbers for the credit card and gives the POS a mock id to make the purchase. it’s harder to clone. also you need to unlock the phone for it to work it’s an extra layer of protection
Pretty sure all contactless forms of payment work like that
Giving a mock card sounds useful. I’ve looked into that for paying online but I couldn’t find an open source way to do it.
Lazy.
Just plain lazy.
I already have my phone in hand in shops - shopping lists, reminders or even plain taking my mind off the shelves so I won’t buy unnecessary shit. Then I get to checkout and…my phone is already in hand. Just boop it and done. No need to dig out wallet from pocket and then dig out card from wallet.
I find it super convenient.
Also, it doesn’t have a limit. Pretty sure I bought my last car with contactless on my phone, but that was years ago.Why carry a contact less card when you can pay with your phone? Have you given it a try? I find myself without a card in lots of situations. Paying by phone is incredibly convenient. Lot harder to lose than a card too.
A contactless card barely takes up any space. It’s not particularly easier to lose either. I’ve never lost my card; I just keep it in my wallet, in my pocket, just like my phone is in my pocket.
You know what takes up less space? Software on the phone that I’m already carrying.
There have also been occasions where I forget my wallet but still have my phone to pay with.
Easy with one card, but it’s a different story when you have multiple cards. Transit pass, loyalty cards from grocery stores for discounts, credit cards for cash back rewards.
Yes, it has an upper limit though as I discovered after cycling to the garage to pick up my car with just my phone. Triple cycling joy that day 🙄
Yes this depends on the linked card, the software you are using and sometimes vendor limits. Many banks have a cardless withdrawal from atm option as a backup if there happens to be atm nearby. These can have pretty high limits. There are also card generating apps like cash app where you create a cc number on the fly. In a pinch most vendors can easily split the cost of something across different cards if one is maxing out.
I’d still carry my debit card if I used phone, just in case I lose one while out and about. I think I’d be more likely to notice my phone is missing but more likely to lose the phone in the first place.
I’ve never tried it in part because I don’t trust my phone with it’s proprietary software, and I suspect there may be no open source apps to pay with.
I’ve never used a contactless debit card. I already had a chip and pin debit card. Why are you, and others, using your contactless card to pay?
I didn’t choose, my bank gave me a contactless card when my last chip and pin card expired (the card still has chip and pin which I use when contactless fails).
My Chip+PIN card has an RFID chip. Standard in Germany. Why would I tell, much less trust, google with my banking. Why would I let them skim data and/or a percentage off the transaction. Why would I choose a system with spotty acceptance, whereas I can use my girocard everywhere. It also doubles as 2nd factor for online banking.
There’s no need to carry your cards if you already have your phone.
Also, unlike your wallet, if you lose it you can track it.
Do you not carry cash? My cards go with my cash, which I would carry anyway even if I could pay by phone just in case I’m out and lose one.
No I don’t. It’s all contactless here.
I’m sure Google contactless payment works really well when the phone is dead. Or you drop your phone in a toilet or off a bridge. It’s far easier to loose a phone than a card in a wallet in your pocket. If you lose your phone, you also lose access to all your money.
I also carry a wallet? Cause, yknow, ID and stuff.
Phone is just way more convenient. Especially since I don’t have a limit on its contactless amount. Whereas with my card, I would have to chip&pin for anything over £40
Not a fan of google pay, but I gotta say, I lost way more wallets than phones in my life it’s about a 3 to 0 ratio (not counting purses I have lost before owning a phone.
Here’s my take which i have not seen in this thread. When you buy your hardware it is yours you should be allowed to do with it as you please. If you want to wipe the device and install another ROM or os you should be able to. Much like the recent fight for “right to repair” not allowing you to do what you want with your property should not be allowed. As long as the manufacturer blocks your ability to do what you want with your hardware it isn’t really your hardware.
Unfortunately that line of thinking stops at the divide between hardware and software. You can legally make a phone manufacturer let you unlock a phone’s bootloader so you can install other software, and you can forbid them from denying hardware warranty because you installed other software. Both of which apply in the EU.
But you can’t make them have their software support or play nice with the other software that you install.
You also can’t force manufacturers to open up drivers if they’re under NDAs and proprietary licensing (which they often are, due to extensive cross licensing because everybody’s owning patents that can lead to everybody suing everybody if they were ever used).
You are absolutely right we can not make them give us access to drivers but just like with nvidia there are people willing to figure it out. I am not for government oversight but if the manufacturers refuse to offer any help then they may need to step in. The EU has made massive strides towards standardizing manufacturers. I also don’t think it would be necessary for the manufacturers to open source their software but its already wrote just release it as closed source so it could be used at the community level.
To combat this I think drivers, firmware, etc. should be acknowledged as being in the same category as spare parts, manuals, repair tools, etc. They are equally as vital to being able to repair your device, and therefore should be open sourced at the latest when a manufacturer pulls support. Of course I would prefer them to be open sourced immediately, but with how software IP works currently that seems like a pipe dream, especially for devices with very complex drivers, like GPU’s.
This is why raspberry pi can’t use a single smartphone recycled screen despite having a DSI port and a billion oled touchscreens going to landfill.
Also, still is impossible to make Verizon unlock bootloaders
Furthermore, if the manufacturer wants to pretend that they’re selling you a perpetual license to use the hardware or whatever legal bullshit they came up with on the back of a cocktail napkin between lines of coke then they can’t advertise using the words buy, own or anything similar without explicitly indicating in the largest font that you aren’t the owner of the product.
I hope some OEM (especially those opposed to google) picks up and develops mainline linux like Pine Phone. There are already several mobile UXs and distros with prebuilt images available as well, and it has been shown multiple times that Android apps can run fairly easily on linux. It would be a big risk, but I think it’d at least find a market success like the Steam Deck.
Android in its current state is the same as Chromebooks. A glorified walled garden of google’s crappy choices & DRM which just so happens to run on the Linux kernel because it’s free. People downvote me for this, but I maintain that even Dalvik and the android runtime itself is an inefficient relic of 10+ years ago when mobile devices had at most 2gb of ram and a tiny low power ARM processor.
It runs like complete crap sometimes on modern devices despite huge advancements in the underlying tech. It feels like a knockoff JVM which is already a known memory hog.
On top of that, it sticks with single kernel releases with proprietary OEM binaries so you have devices out here running on kernels as old as 3.x because no custom ROM will be able to recompile the device modules for a newer kernel.
It is almost hilarious to me that Moonshell, a multimedia homebrew software for the Nintendo DS (4mb of RAM), has more complete features, file compatibility, and better UI design than at least 95% of the music apps on Google Play. And it was written by literally one guy. I was honestly surprised at just how many music players lacked functionality as basic as supporting m3u playlists.
I hope some OEM (especially those opposed to google) picks up and develops mainline linux like Pine Phone.
Huawei is being forced to do it. But like Android, their HarmonyOS is not 100% open-source. There’s also KaiOS, which some Nokia and Alcatel, and all Jio, devices use.
even Dalvik and the android runtime itself is an inefficient relic of 10+ years ago when mobile devices had at most 2gb of ram and a tiny low power ARM processor.
Both the ones I mentioned are designed to be more memory efficient. KaiOS in particular is aimed primarily at feature phones and entry-level smartphones.
The problem of being stuck on an old kernel isn’t because of Google or Android, but because of chip makers (e.g. Qualcomm) not providing drivers.
I do blame Google. It’s their platform. They could mandate upstream kernels.
They could define auto discoverablity for their platform hardware. Then it would be possible for generic ROMs to boot on any Android phone.
I feel that the mobile world is ripe for disruption. There has not been excitement for new devices in a while from me and my friends who are all into tech. I remember 00s and early 10s where we used to discuss new devices all the time.
Most of us are STUCK with Apple and Google because they have both built walled gardens. It is not just the apps, it is also moving away from open standards, moving away from even files. e.g., 10 years ago mp4 files used to hold all the metadata related to a TV Show/Movie so if you put that into a device (iTunes for example) it’ll have all the metadata, now this info is in a separate database. SMS for all it’s flaws was open, now google wants us to believe RCS is also open (LOL).
This has led to a basic degradation in all the basics, echoing your example that it is impossible to find a decent music app.
Even apples own music has has ACTIVELY DEGRADED. Bottom bar of apple music app was “Albums”, “Songs”, “Artists”, and “Playlists” and YOU COULD CHANGE THE BOTTOM BAR. Now it is literally “Home” == Ads, “Browse” == Ads (pls buy apple music), “Search” == Ads. and LITERALLY only 1 page called “Library” where you can access your own purchased library. Same happened with apple books.
Android has seen similar shitty stuff, I remember being excited about actually FUN android games, tiny thief, vector, cut the rope, where is my water, etc. Now it is all ads, paywall nonsense.
Not to mention the Today page of the Playstore ACTUALLY USED TO BE USEFULL for highlighting some apps. And is not LITERALLY ONLY F***** ADS.
I feel/hope/pray that we have a SteveJobs 2007 type iPhone event around the corner, because everyone is ready for it.
There really is a dearth of choices. I’ve little love for Google’s version of android, mostly for privacy reasons.
If I could get a decent phone that ran at reasonable speed for a tolerable price, without the tracking, I’d be willing to give it a go - and endure more than a few pain points.
Getting an “a” series pixel for a few hundred and going grapheneOS seems like a good option, no?
I have tried it. Pixel 6a.
My banking app works. That’s good.
RCS messages don’t. Could live without that.
Merlin bird ID doesn’t. Pain point all right, but I’ll live.
My Galaxy Watch doesn’t. Probably not GrapheneOS’ fault, and I should buy a better watch, but that will only happen when this one dies.
Now I use a pixel 7a with stock ROM. Everything works, and if I get sick of it, I can get back to GrapheneOS and it’s quirks…
Even just being rooted on the stock Pixel rom is a fight. It’s a constant cat and mouse game to pass basic and device integrity, but as of recently a lot of us have been able to pass strong integrity as well which has been nice.
Even just being rooted on the stock Pixel rom is a fight.
That, I can see being more of an issue than an unmodified, trusted 3rd party OS. If I remember right, rooting makes the device fail Verified Boot:
It establishes a full chain of trust, starting from a hardware-protected root of trust to the bootloader, to the boot partition and other verified partitions including system, vendor, and optionally oem partitions.
https://source.android.com/docs/security/features/verifiedboot
Fair point. At least with stock rooted as I said there’s ways around it and I can pass all play integrity checks and such.
Motorola ROM is fine
I wish you could slap a custom rom on whatever phone you want and it Just Works™ like you can slap linux on any PC, but instead we get apps that potentially don’t work, locked bootloaders, push notifications tied to Google Play Services, and whatever else. You can put Lineage on the EU version of my phone but not the US version because fuck you. I hate how corpo centric phones have become. Like Google shouldn’t be allowed to hijack my entire screen for an ad or an app update. The entire modern definition of “sideloading” is BS, apps have access by default to things that they really don’t need, and why do I need to use ADB to purge your pre-installed bloatware ffs
Not cool.
Yeah it would’ve been like that for pcs too if they weren’t around for quite longer.
We can get same experience quite soon on laptops too when arm laptops&desktop will arrive toensd users.It gonna be lock down same as phones nowdays.
I do not like this prediction, because it seems like a plausible reality. Which would be awful.
risc-V laptops might compete with arm in a few years - maybe not for power users, but for most simpl use , or for those who will just ssh into real computer.
deleted by creator
How does one flash a ROM without unlocking the bootloader these days?
Shouldn’t that break Android Verified Boot?
A pure GSI image could use a Google key, I suppose, but others shouldn’t, right?
You have to unlock it fire and flash the gsi rom
I’m not an expert, but I had an expert explain that an unlocked boot loader is only risky if you think someone nefarious is physically able to get their hand on your phone. Is that true?
ngl a unlocked bootloader would be a security nightmare
So, like a desktop or laptop? Sounds fine to me.
We’ve started the process of talking to regulators and they’re interested.
Oh that’s great, they aren’t actually suing since that would be a pretty big money pit, they are going straight to regulators, something can happen.
FTC act is the most useful against this sort of behavior and only the FTC can file suit for that, not individual companies. I don’t think this could be filed as a violation of the Sherman act. See here for an overview: https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/antitrust-laws
