Aside from racism. I mean economically/socially, what issues does too much immigration cause?
It depends a bit on how you define immigration. Is what the Spaniards and English did to the Americas immigration or something else?
If the influx of a different culture is so big that it displaces you and your children like it did to the Native Americans, then I understand that you’d want to stop it.
Is what the Spaniards and English did to the Americas immigration
Uhh
No.
Weird place for your mind to even go.
What would you call it instead?
Colonialism? Invasion?
I could be wrong, but to me those words describe the initial phase. Once established as a society, the rest involves people moving into this society, which I would call immigration.
More Englishmen moving to the 13 colonies, I would call immigration. More Americans pushing into Native land is imo more accurately an invasion.
That’s how I think about it too. I guess the original description was a bit vague, what they did to the americas. It includes both. First invasion, then immigration.
The thing is, invasion without immigration following it might kill a lot of the original people but doesn’t displace them as a whole.
They eat people pets \s
In Canada it’s causing a huge housing crisis. Lots of newcomers do not have the finances for what rent is here either so end up in limbo.
Sounds like too many landlords, not too many immigrants.
Porque no los dos?
I’m not from Canada, but because I have the natural human instinct to help people
Yes but that’s a side effect of this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-family_zoning
Which is also screwing over regular people and also causes you to have shittier cities with suburban sprawl, oh and those zoning laws are also racist in origin
It isn’t just housing it’s infrastructure in general. Governments are happy to bring in more bodies to fill jobs and pay taxes but don’t bother to plan accordingly and infrastructure takes a long time to build leading to a lagging effect.
Hospitals, transit, housing, etc. It’s all being overwhelmed right now.
The irony of a nation of colonial land thieves complaining about immigration …
Canadians should settle their debts with First Nations and honour their treaties, like good immigrants before judging others.
To add to your point…every nation stole or was stolen from someone else at some point. I always laugh at this argument. No one’s giving anything back that they were born into and didn’t literally take themselves. Are we going to find Henry the Viiis ancestors and make them answer for his barbaric ways? No. Egyptian pharaohs who enslaved countless people and god knows what else? No.
Who do you think the Inuit stole their land from? The seals?
Other tribes? What you think they were all just nice to each other?
You can only laugh from a place of privilege. Please educated yourself on the Indian Act and progress with existing treaties. Your comment is at odds with the reality in Canada.
My comment just speaks the hard truth. You talking to me on the Internet is on the blood sweat and tears of someone else. Nothing is nice about anything when you go into the history of it all.
Oh dear. I’ve just seen your comment history. I don’t think we’ll be agreeing on much. Good luck.
Oh dear. I’ve just seen your comment history and I don’t care.
They sure should.
Infrastructure is a large issue. Border towns can become saturated, which will reduce living conditions, and when immigrants move to larger cities, they can often have trouble finding places to live. A lot of this can be because of a communication barrier. Sometimes that is because there are too few to translate, but there can also be educational issues. As much maligned as the US education system is, it is better than some others, and when your culture eschews school for an early start at earning a paycheck, communication in any language becomes a challenge.
Many issues can be overcome, or at least minimized, by compassionate workers, which many that work with immigrants are, but there isn’t enough funding to get compassionate people where they are most needed. Supporting increased budgets at the border isn’t always about putting guns on the border, it can be about improving the infrastructure that helps get people where they need to be in more efficient ways. I’m starting to ramble, though, and I think I’ve given a partial answer to your question.
From an economical standpoint, immigrants bring in more taxes and labor, which can go towards infrastructure and social infrastructure like education and housing
Just gotta make sure those taxes are going to the right place.
Immigration in excess and esspecially in combination with exploititive or unenforced labour laws and mismanagement of other resources and infrastructure, can decrease wages, and cause shortage of key resources. For example, if there is no new housing being built, but there is very high immigration levels, housing prices will rise, and availability will be limited.
Well sure, but then why not build more houses?
Typically these quickly built housing is of such crappy quality that only immigrants will want to live there (because they can’t afford anything else anyway). This leads to the development of ghettos, with leads to the typical problems from crappy schools (that traps the kids in the lowest social class) to no cultural assimilation.
Sounds like an awful slippery slope 🙄
So have and enforce building codes. Sounds like a simple problem with a simple solution.
You mean building codes that would hike the price to levels immigrants can’t afford? You could of course build social housing like a developed country but good luck doing that while republicans hold any kind of power. And even if you manage to get that done the amount of housing you can build is limited by the amount of money you are willing to invest into social housing.
Building codes bring price up, more supply brings prices down, sounds like a wash.
Sounds like you have no idea what you are talking about. No amount of supply will bring down raw material and labour costs.
It’s cute you think scarcity has no effect on prices.
Usually because those responsible for regulating housing are heavily invested in it, and like the fact that high immigration is pushing prices up. In the case of more blatantly malicious governments, it can also be used to encourage divisionism, or to weaken the power of the working class. At best, its just because building housing (esspecially in more extreme climates) is slow and expensive. As usual, most things lead back to corrupt governments and capitalism.
Fair point. I say “why not just build houses” as if it’s easy, but it’s really not. If I were King of America I could force simultaneous policy changes (more immigration + more housing) but that’s unlikely to happen in reality.
It is probably impossible to happen because the United States does not have a king.
Thanks for pointing that out
just have a look at the EU and also Germany with some crazies wanting shariah law…this is Germany we are talking about,with their histories and what not
It’s a complex and polarising issue. The main problem is that some, sometimes most, of immigrants don’t want to assimilate. They are creating ghettos, don’t respect local laws. Other issue is that governments prefer to spend tax payer money for accommodating immigrants instead of solving nation’s issues.
I wouldn’t limit immigration per se. I would limit unchecked illegal immigration and spend more money on assimilating immigrants that want to contribute to a country they moved into.
The main problem is that some, sometimes most, of immigrants don’t want to assimilate. They are creating ghettos, don’t respect local laws.
Generalisations like this are the very reason it’s a polarising issue. Opinions like yours generally derive from “observation” and “gut feeling”. Which by definition is completely anecdotal and harmful when it begins to be applied to millions of people all at once.
Betsy from insert town here sees an immigrant couple down the street in her home-town keeping to themselves and not really wanting to take part in the community. She’s talking on the phone to nosy-nessie the town busybody who says “oh…you know…my aunt said the same thing about her insert culture neighbours.” And then all of a sudden, that’s just “how those people are”…all of them…everywhere.
Maybe this couple is just a little embarrassed about their english skills and want to strengthen them more before going into public everywhere, which comes across as shy. Maybe they’re just private…who knows. But suddenly…“it’s just how (those people) are”, becomes the anecdotal “truth”.
It’s wrong, it’s dangerous, and the fact that you don’t even grasp the irony of your own comment is telling in a lot of ways.
No unfortunately. There is plenty of evidence of immigrants building their own justice systems and authorities under the radar of their new countries because it goes against the freedoms and expectations.
We shouldn’t ignore that and not talk about it.
Great. Then you shouldn’t have any problem coming up with three examples for us all.
In my opinion, country-based immigration paired with needs-based works really well.
Ultimately, many of the best parts of the culture of a place are because of what people brought with them years ago. Some of the best restaurants are because someone in India moved to the UK, and then moved to the US and brought the culture of Curry Mile or Brick Lane with them, or because a community of Greek railroad workers decided to set up bakeries using their known recipes that all the locals love.
The same often goes for business. Look at the rise of Aldi and Lidl, and how cheap produce and great workers rights will suddenly make local supermarkets look in bewilderment at how markets they once dominated are being torn away from them.
IMO, if you have skills to offer, you should be welcome. I’m currently in the process of moving to the US on a high-skilled visa, and it is mad how one country will require thousands in legal fees and 24+ month waits while a country next door will say “Shit, you can teach?! Come join us! If you want to stay permanently that’s fine!”
Housing is already unsustainable, more people means more demand for it
Housing in even semi-desirable locations is already unaffordable for most Americans. How would immigrants, considering the low wages they are limited to, make this worse?
Smaller partitions, roommates, families in single bedrooms, landlords exploiting ignorance to skirt rights and maintenance etc
Very good point. Having a local government that is willing to allow more housing to be built is absolutely necessary if you want to let immigrants in.
It’s the only non racist rationale I can think of, and potentially solvable if local governments and NIMBY laws didn’t suck so much
Building houses is probably generally allowed, but not an easy solution.
Someone who migrates to another country, to work there in a regular job, can get a regular apartment. But everyone wants to live where the living conditions are best. You can’t build infinite housing in those locations, and the increased demand drives prices.
Someone who seeks asylum is in an entirely different situation, and housing them is a different challenge. Building a house in a nice place costs 10x what it costs in a remote country region. But now people have nobody to integrate with and less social options.
Any house being built costs money. Building houses for people who are still in search of employment is a bad investment. Nobody wants to build those houses. They want to build the nice houses in the nice places that will gather lots of rent. If you want to have the houses anyway, because maybe the people are already here, you probably have to use taxes for it. Some citizens will never be able to accept that, creating conflict.
The “shot in the foot” effect when you accept immigrants from conservative/racist countries and they and - most likely - the next generation will vote right wing which more accurately mirrors those conservative/racist beliefs.
Racism
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Mostly to avoid having infrastructure and social safety networks overwhelmed. Yes, you will also see wages be depressed by large-scale immigration, but that’s something that could–in theory–be controlled by strengthening unions and labor regulations. That’s not where we are though; right now, unions and labor regulations are fairly weak, and are being gutted by courts even as the NLRB tries to strengthen them.
Housing takes time to build, and good city planning is necessary to ensure that cities are sustainable rather than being sprawls. (Not many cities do that, BTW; it’s usually, “oh, we’ll just add another lane to the existing 20 lane interstate”). Given that we’re currently in a situation where there’s insufficient low- and middle-income high density housing, and few companies are willing to build any more, competition for most of the immigrants that we’re seeing–people that are trying to get away from deep economic woes–would be fierce for housing.
and few companies are willing to build any more
I don’t think this is actually true. At least in my area, developers would LOVE to build condos and apartments all over the place, but local laws are holding them back.
I suppose even in a perfectly willing area that upgrades its infrastructure to support more people, you don’t want to move people in too quickly, before that infrastructure is available. But it’s easy to see that become a self fulfilling prophecy: we don’t take immigrants because we don’t have the infrastructure, and we don’t build the infrastructure because there’s no demand for it.
AFAIK, the issue around me is largely profitability. You can buy up acres if land, chop it up into 1/2ac parcels, quickly build cheap “luxury houses”, and sell them for 2-3x your costs, easily earning $200k+ per house sold (“Coming soon, from the low $400s…!”). And it’s all with fairly minimal regulation, compared to building high-density housing in existing cities. Compare and contrast that with building low- and middle-income high-density housing, where you’re going to end up managing it as apartments (probably not condos; that’s uncommon in my area); that means that you’re in the red for a larger number of years before you pay back the initial costs of construction, since the profitability comes through rents.
Maybe I’m wrong; all I can comment on is the kind of building that I’m seeing in my area, and the way that the closest city–which was originally about 90 minutes away–is now alarmingly close.
Sprawl sucks. Density is what we should be promoting.
Of course, and I agree (…even as I’m looking at buying a few hundred acres of land in a desert three hours away from any town over 1000 people…). But you’ve got a lot of incentives working against that.
The town I’m in is starting to be a suburb of the city 90 minutes away; the town wants these people, and their homes from the low $400s, because that’s more tax base; they pay property taxes that the town wouldn’t otherwise have. So my town is happy–kind of–to be part of the problem.
That’s the big issue in my area. The city and it’s lovely corporate-sucking politicians keep putting out ‘information’ about the city being “X% developed!” The only thing being developed is more strip malls and high cost houses. Everything green and natural is disappearing. It’s all single-family sprawl, with only a few super-high luxury apartments scattered about and maybe 2-3 apartment buildings that anyone on a lower budget could afford. The politicians get their greedy fingers into higher tax revenues, the developing/building corporations sit back and suck up investor money, and investors get to suck up their profits because housing is relatively scarce and the cost for properties shoots through the roof.
I don’t think anyone wants to make a brand new condo and try to full it full of fresh immigrants that other businesses are exploiting to pay less.
They want to develop 1 set of condos they can sell for $300k+ rather than 3 sets for $100k
Yeah, immigrants would be better served by apartments
No. No, that’s not it at all.
Immigrants would be better served by unprofitable low income housing, not feeding their meager scraps to pay artificially inflated rent prices to an offshore real estate investment company.
Well duh. In fact, they’d be better served by FREE housing!
In the realm of realistic solutions, apartments.
Fun fact! My coworker pays more in rent for his apartment than I do on the mortgage of my house. Most often this is true.
I’m getting a once over by the bank, he’s getting done once over by the bank and again by his landlord, and they might not ever be different.
So how is an immigrant supposed to thrive when a foreign investment firm is profiting off them twice?
Subsidize affordable housing, tax wholesale & foreign landlords out of existence. It’s simple.
It’s a pipedream.
Yeah this is the biggest issue.
The way most housing gets built where I live it works like this: A company handles the project management, buying the land, getting the permits, hiring the builders, doing the marketing/sales etc. This costs a HUGE amount of money, which they don’t have. So these projects get designed on paper and then sold to investors. These put in a big amount of money, with the expectation of the project making money in the sales of the housing in the end. This means they can often double their entry in a couple of years, which is really good in terms of investments. As the investors want to make as much money as possible, the company designing the housing have incentives to not only make the houses as dense as possible, but also as expensive as possible. Their margins in percent are about the same no matter the house, so a more expensive house makes them more money. This leads to really big expensive homes crammed together in either high rises or plots. It’s really dumb as well since detached homes are worth more, they build homes with like 2 meter between them. The biggest issue is, only rich people can afford these homes. Even though more homes are built, the majority of people looking to buy a home can’t afford these. Homes also get sold to investors again, to rent out as the house itself appreciates in value. These expensive homes also have the effect of driving up property prices in the area, which leads to more expensive houses and higher taxes.
In the end, it’s only the rich that profit. They get the good investment projects, making them even more rich. They get to buy the expensive new homes to live in. They get to buy the homes to rent out and use as an investment vehicle.
Some places have made them build cheaper homes as well, if they want to get the permit. But it’s not enough. We need to be building practical affordable homes, but we don’t cause the people putting up the money to build stuff don’t want to.
If only we had some sort of public entity that could fund housing investments with little to no financial gain, but great gains to public support and well-being that was also in charge of controlling and permitting immigration rates so that the two could be balanced…
There’s also the carrying capacity of the area they’re emigrating to. Housing in particular is one aspect of it that’s already very very tight in most of the Western world. Even without immigration per se, this problem plays out every time a major company moves headquarters to a new city/state. Lots of new people, and a very slow to respond housing stock means surging prices. Schools and other social services also get stretched - but they’re much quicker to respond to the demand.
This might be me projecting, but I think lack of housing stock is driven by NIMBY policies intentionally restricting stock, and not by some unchangeable market force. It doesn’t have to be a limiting factor, at least not as much as at present.
When i was a kid even poor people had a 3 bedroom house on a quarter acre block. I know someone who rents the balcony of a 2 bedroom flat and shares with 7 other people., all of them are migrants or international students. Oddly enough, i live in a house that was built in a backyard. A cheap, crappy new investment property made to capitalise on the housing crisis. We’ve had more than two dozen tradesmen visit in a couple of years so i wonder how that investment’s working out. This is not progress.
In the long-term yes, but in the short-term and even medium-term, housing takes time to build, so there’s going to be a lag. During that lag, it can cause problems even without NIMBY policies.
Good point.
Regarding potential societal issues:
When multiple cultures mix together, one of two things can happen:
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The cultures mesh well and either coexist or mutually mix into something new
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The cultures do not mesh well and this leads to all sorts of problems, especially increased crime
The second usually happens when both cultures place opposite value in something. For example, one culture places a high value on self and the other places a high value on being in a group, this can lead to a divide between cultures. Eventually, the resentment each group has for each other will lead to violence and other sorts of crime. One culture may think “I made the money for myself,” while the other thinks ,“we should all share the money.” If people don’t learn how to get along, you can probably see how that would increase criminal activity. In most cases, it is usually the expectation that the immigrant adapt to the culture of the new place they have moved to, rather than the new place’s home residents being expected to adapt to every immigrants different country cultures.
It also isn’t good when immigrants enter a new country and do not know the laws of the country they have entered. They may commit crimes that could have been legal wherever they came from, but now someone may be a victim to a crime and the immigrant did not know. Now, usually immigrants that legally enter a country do learn about the basic laws of the country and the basic culture, but ones that enter a country illegally may know nothing about the place they are in. They may continue to act the same as they did in their previous home, which may have very different laws, leading to further divide.
In most cases, it is usually the expectation that the immigrant adapt to the culture of the new place they have moved to, rather than the new place’s home residents being expected to adapt to every immigrants different country cultures.
Yeah this topic is really showing my American bias. Or rather Californian. I’m used to a fluid, adaptable culture.
I would be really hesitant to trust the answers here. How many people responding on Lemmy actually have an educated position on how these systems work? Because I can tell you that there are some fields where Lemmy users are just plain ignorant, while displaying all the confidence of certainty. Especially when you include Europeans on the topic of race… what a shitshow.
The safe reading of this thread is to assume every response is an ignorant, bitter xenophobe who gets all their info from a Fox news equivalent. You can still hear their point, but don’t be fooled into thinking they aren’t missing something that completely flips the story.
In general, I assume everyone on lemmy is some form of absolute moron, and I’m more often right than wrong.
It’s a racist lie that increased immigration leads to increased crime.
The mythical tie between immigration and crime - a Stanford Study
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