These are people who would have never, ever voted for Trump, but billions of dollars are being spent by the Democrats to slaughter our loved ones and our families. Israel has been decimating south Lebanon, where many of our relatives live, and now this administration is deploying US troops to the Middle East. Not exactly a winning strategy if they actually want our votes.
Some people think of a Trump vote as a protest vote. I have heard arguments being made along the lines of “Trump is not the person who is committing the genocide right now” or “Well, we didn’t have any wars under Trump”. I personally disagree with this, and consider Trump to be a fascist and fearmonger who deeply traumatised our communities during his presidency. He was a hateful leader who slammed the door on refugees by implementing a Muslim ban. While he didn’t start any wars, he did escalate existing wars in the Middle East and vetoed a series of bipartisan bills that aimed at prohibiting arms sales to Saudi Arabia.
This is some weapons grade stupidity. Virtually all the pols in DC are responsible for spending to support Israel. To try and suggest that it’s only the dems doing it is disingenuous at best. And whatever you think Harris will do when it comes to Israel, Trump is guaranteed to do far, far worse.
Trump to Israel: “You have to finish up your war. You have to finish it up. You’ve got to get it done,”
Weapons grade stupidity is believing there’s something Biden/Harris are doing to hold Israel back.
Did someone suggest she would? I don’t know why you are bringing up Biden here, in case you missed it, he’s not up for election. Anyway, what I said was, whatever Harris would do if elected, Trump will do far, far worse.
Trump can’t create more tanks and bombs out of thin air.
Former GOP presidents Bush and Reagan kept Israel from carrying out a genocide, so there’s a precedent for trying the other side of the aisle.
Anyway, what I said was, whatever Harris would do if elected, Trump will do far, far worse.
There’s worse than one country being given the weapons to bomb the civilians of another country?
Yes. He can and will give them more weapons. He will help them expand their war into even more nations in the region. Do you really think that the current situation is the worst it could be?
I think that innocent people being killed and nothing being done about it is around the worst it can be for the victims and those who loved them, yes.
And whatever you think Harris will do when it comes to Israel, Trump is guaranteed to do far, far worse.
I have Ukrainian heritage, although I am a third-generation immigrant elsewhere. I have to ask myself, would I be able to grasp this point if I lived in a country where both parties funded Russia to invade Ukraine? I probably wouldn’t, because people are dead, and my family is still being killed.
Tell me: what is worse than that?
Voting for someone who will actively help kill your relatives, and then likely try to deport you personally from this country, would be worse.
i’m related to people who literally snuck across the mexican border themselves escaping their own violence and they full heartidly support trump and his efforts to close the border and turn away asylum seekers.
talk to any latino over the age of 50; especially mexican-americans protestants or cubano expats in florida and you’ll find that they’re a huge minority if not the majority.
it doesn’t matter where you come from or how you got here; the only thing that matters is what’s in your head today and it’s very easy to manipulate that.
your family’s death is going to be in your head today and the off chance of getting deported tomorrow is a second thought at best; especially when you don’t believe that it can happen to you.
The logical thing to do then. Well as logical as that situation gets, is just to not vote. Punishing one politician by voting for another that’s worse on every policy. Sends mixed to no message at all. And is just irrational self injuring flailing. But humans are very skilled at being irrational.
the logical thing to do is to understand where people are at right now; not where you want them to be or believe where they should be.
succumbing the pressures levied upon us has pressured us away from trying to understand our fellow countrymen and turned the american political discourse into little more than looking for an opportunity to dunk on your opponent or running into defeatist straw men like the one you’ve shared.
carving out the tiniest of releaf cuts from that pressure lays bare the reasons why kamala and trump are at 50/50 despite literally billions of dollars and generations of liberalization that should be helping kamala more.
Funny that you hypocritically whine about strawman when you start out with one. It is your MO though.
Understanding “where they are”, doesn’t make their actions any more logical or less self-harming. And implying that someone who calls their actions illogical and self-harming doesn’t know where they are coming from. Well if that’s your best argument, and it is. It’s pretty laughable.
what straw man was presented here?
Is it easy to think logically while the country you live in will not do anything other than fund the death of your family?
Also, while I think logically, you have clearly explained that you cannot vote for an American party without supporting “Voting for someone who will actively help kill your relatives…”, because “Virtually all the pols in DC are responsible for spending to support Israel”.
I think I can understand a bunch of Muslim immigrants, disliked by many for one or both of those features, feeling unable to make a good choice when given a choice that is - as you have said - no choice. Add ongoing grief and I, for one, can find it within me to extend compassion to them. You are named Boddhisatva, so would suspect you know the teachings of Lord Buddha, also.
Let us imagine I am being told that I can vote for Party A, which will hasten to support the hostile government of another country to kill my family in (let’s say) 12 months. Or I can vote for Party B, which will put the breaks on so that it happens in 24 months, and they will also keep saying how unacceptable that is.
Is that really a choice?
No, it’s a straw man.
I’m sure it would be to someone who doesn’t care that innocent people are being killed, because that someone is not related to them.
I hear you on feeling like the lesser of two wrongs isn’t a choice.
But, if you had a choice between the two. Would you prefer to poke out an eye or burn a finger?
Both options being bad doesn’t mean they’re equally bad. And sometimes we really do have to choose between the better of two bad options.
That’s just life.
I don’t think either choices are comparable to widespread death of innocents.
It’s a trolley problem. Do you vote harris and kill X people? Or vote trump and kill X+X people?
The trolley will kill people either way. Do you let it lean left and kill some people? Or lean right and kill many more?
Better analogy?
I have no interest in the trolley problem.
Then why did you post this thread?
Because like it or not the current political system in the US is a trolley problem. It’s a very binary do we go this way or do we go that way?
If you have no interest in the problem, then don’t pay attention to US politics and don’t make posts about it.
Trump
In this situation, you don’t want Trump to be elected.
I don’t want my family to be dead, but they are already dying.
Forgive me but, in that case, I would very likely think you were being ignorant.
Unfortunately the election isn’t about whether or not the USA stops supporting Israel. There is no vote for that.
It’s about whether or not you want USA to be doing what it’s doing right now under control of people who will dialog with you about it (Democrats) vs. people who are just waiting for a chance to annihilate you entirely so you’ll shut up and they can get more real estate (Republicans).
Ah, so you are Russian. If you were Ukrainian and wanted your family to stop dying, then you wouldn’t be pro Trump.
I don’t think you’re very good at reading, or diagnosing nationality.
Killing innocent people is wrong and upsets people. Reacting to that with “you’re being silly” or “you’re a hostile actor trying to destabilise the world” comes across as extremely obtuse.
Trump has made it clear the gaza war will worsen with him in office.
So, I think you’re being disingenuous. Especially considering the direct quote was in the parent comment we’re all replying too.
So, I think you’re being disingenuous.
I’m not convinced that I’m being disingenuous in saying that it is hard to support a party when it condones the killing of one’s family.
hard to support a party when it condones the killing of one’s family.
So I suppose you would vote neither party?
Party A is not doing enough to stop the killing and ‘condones’ (I disagree with that word and characterization) Party B has messaged that the killing isn’t going fast and hard enough and will give wider support to the killing once electedParty B also wants to deport people of a certain heritage (multiple groups, not just the one) and perhaps you fall into that bracket? I really hope not.
If I lived in a country where both main parties supported Russia to invade Ukraine, I would not want to vote for either, no.
I would support the party which would reduce that support, or even oppose Russia.
This is some weapons grade stupidity
Maybe the ‘weapons grade stupidity’ is thinking that giving weapons to a country that uses them to kill innocent people will make friends with the families of those people.
Actions have consequences. That’s what karma is.
And the consequence for putting trump in power is going to be many more dead innocents.
I don’t know if I’d call that karma so much as the consequence of acting like a petulant child on real world issues.
Admittedly, if you don’t actually care about the innocents in the middle East and are just another privileged first worlder who really only cares about themselves, these aren’t actually consequences. But for those who will die, they are very real consequences.
A lack of compassion and understanding, fascinating.
Are you claiming I’m not compassionate because I habe an understanding of objective reality and I should be more sympathetic to silly people?
Or do you really somehow believe trump, who has encouraged Israel to go harder and accused Dems of being soft on Hamas, would somehow be better for the innocents in the Middle East?
The Guardian - News Source Context (Click to view Full Report)
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MBFC: Left-Center - Credibility: Medium - Factual Reporting: Mixed - United Kingdom
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Looks like the zio astroturfers found your article, incoming downvotes
I don’t at all understand what the point is here. Do you think that Trumo will support Gazans?
the point is that neither trump or kamala support gazans despite whatever they say and expecting a group with the closest proximity to the genocide to accept your view that one genocide is better than the other is privilege at its worst.
You replied to the wrong person, just so you know. You meant to reply to Kethal on this comment: https://alx.lemmy.blahaj.zone/lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/11244289
thanks; i posted to the right one.
I’m not sure anyone has to support Israel’s war against the innocent to prefer Kamala over Trump, even though regardless of which party wins it seems that Palestinians will still die. They just have to care more about how Trump will affect them compared to how much they care about Palestinians.
In the end, Palestinians are a faraway people, with a different skin colour and a different religion. “It is sad that they are dead, but there is nothing we can do about it.”
People seem to tend choose to let other people be harmed if resisting that harm is inconvenient to them. And that is why I do not have all that much respect for people, and do not feel emotionally attached to humanity.
What a bunch of nihilistic garbage.
If you knew what nihilism was you’d be embarrassed at making that statement.
I’ll continue feeling bad about people who are different from me being killed, and you can continue calling that ‘nihilism’, when in fact it is not thinking that they’re important which is closing to believing that nothing has any importance.
I don’t at all understand what the point is here. Do you think that Trumo will support Gazans? Trump has said he would wholeheartedly take Israel’s side and provide more support than the current administration. There isn’t a choice between what you have and what you want. It’s between what you have and something worse than what you have.
Trump winning doesn’t force Democrats to support Gazans. It forces them to side with Israel in order to appeal to the electorate.
I don’t at all understand what the point is here. Do you think that Trumo will support Gazans
the point is that neither trump or kamala support gazans despite whatever they say and expecting a group with the closest proximity to the genocide to accept your view that one genocide is better than the other is privilege at its worst.
A black and white view of the world gets you nowhere. There is a huge difference in the way that this administration has handled this war and the way that Trump says he plans to handle it. To say that there is no difference in the degree of support these people would provide to Israel or Gazans is incredibly naive. Your choices are grass flavored ice cream, or shit flavored ice cream. Vanilla isn’t on the menu, and you have to pick one. “I don’t like either”, as if the two choices are the same, is living in a fantasy world.
A black and white view of the world gets you nowhere.
take your own advice: there are more options out there beyond democrat or republican and these two have gone to great lengths to convince you that anything else is a fantasy world.
generations of black and white only american voting has led us to this situation and the sooner we start seeing in color the sooner that we can stop accepting genocide as a lesser evil. this system demonstrably only permits black and white voting and perpetuating it will turn that lesser evil into acceptable behavior if we don’t stop; knowing that and doing it anyways makes you complicit.
no one is forcing you to vote with a conscience; it’s just automatically better than listening to a groupthink that establishes that some genocide can be acceptable from now on.
Man, I feel like this comment doesn’t take the election process in America into account. Sure you could vote 3rd party and have a clean conscience, but it’s at the cost of the worst of two options gaining power.
It also ignores that many of the the non-core policies of both major parties move toward the policies of the winning party. If Trump wins, support for Gaza in both parties will decrease. Not that there’s never a reason to vote third party, but nothing about third party voting is advantageous for this particular issue.
Thanks for saying this.
There isn’t a choice
Agreed, and that makes people not know how to act, because there is no reasonable way to act.
Maybe killing innocent people is wrong, and people shouldn’t do that.
People who deliberately misquote people are not worth talking with. There is a choice and if you think pretending like there isn’t one gets you somewhere, prepare for a very different approach to this war when Trump takes office.
Hey, the trash takes itself out.
