Summary
Former Ukrainian boxing champion Wladimir Klitschko accused podcaster Joe Rogan of “repeating Russian propaganda” after Rogan criticized U.S. military aid to Ukraine and suggested it could escalate into World War III.
Klitschko defended Ukraine’s resistance against Russia, highlighting the country’s fight for freedom and condemning Rogan’s remarks as aiding Putin’s agenda.
He invited Rogan to discuss their differences on the podcast “like free men.”
Rogan, who recently endorsed Donald Trump, called the war a “proxy war” and criticized Biden’s decision to allow Ukraine to strike Russian soil with U.S.-supplied missiles.
It was an organised people’s revolution last I recall. There was clear evidence of fraud working directly opposite of the will of the people. That is fact. Unless you’re saying that’s not accepted fact and can provide evidence to the contrary?
So the Maiden Coup didn’t happen? LoL. What evidence would convince someone who denies a historical event actually happened?
Especially a historical event where Nazis came to power. People who deny those aren’t typically swayed by any evidence.
I literally said it did happen. It was literally a people’s revolution that saw the end of a russian puppet taking power illegally and the rise of a people tired of being under the boot?
Do I deny NATO or US involvement? No. That would be naive and counter to historical fact. It would actually almost be as naive as believing the kremlin propaganda points you spew out.
Ukrainians tired of being sold out by their politicians changed the course of power in their nation and in return Russia invaded Crimea. This is fact. With or without US aid. This is fact. The will for change was there. This is fact. Russia openly and brazenly defrauded the Ukrainian election. This is fact.
Prove to me that Nazis took over the entire Ukrainian government. Show me the facts.
You mean besides the people themselves saying they’re Nazis, covering their military in Nazi insignias, and naming streets after Nazis & erecting statues of them? What’s more convincing than someone covered in Nazi patches telling you openly that they are Nazis?
The US Congress had to end their ban on arming Nazis in order to send arms to Ukraine.
I don’t even know how to combat the level of cognitive dissonance going on here. I have several starting points but you’re just going to continue refuting anything I say with baseless kremlin talking points that further marginalise the Ukrainian people.
There are Nazis, Socialists, Anarchists, Libertarians, Agrarianists, Monarchists in almost every single country and by association their military. As it stands, the Russian military states the eradication of the ukrainian people as a primary goal of their campaign. Though they call it “denazification” it’s just a more supported term for ethnic cleansing. The Kremlin has placed Nazi ideology at the centre of Ukrainian identity thus vilifying an entire nation of people. They have created a fear of “other” amongst their people and drive to dehumanise Ukrainians as fascist dogs.
What this is, political tactics right out of the actual Nazi playbook. Ukraine is labelled as a fascist state by Russia because it provides Casus Belli. They have looked at a vocal minority and a troubled history then used that to justify the idea that Ukrianians need to be erased for Wrongthink.
I do not refute that the AZOV battalion exists, I do not refute that nazis exist within Ukraine or their armed forces. What I do refute is that Nazism, Fascism and ethnic cleansing are the stated goal of the Ukrainian people, their government or their military. Ukraine has fought for a long time to cleanse their politik and ensure a bright future for their people.
What I suppose is that Fascism and Ethnic Cleansing are the stated goals of the Kremlin, their military and many of their people. The idea has just been sold under a centuries long buildup of lies. The only way Russia wins this completely is by changing hearts and minds. They have time and time again proved that they will accomplish this goal by wiping out entire towns of civilians, invading sovereign land, deporting natives and importing russians, then holding referendums at gun point.
Each step of the way, the threads of wool the Kremlin attempts to pull over our eyes have been transparent. Clear as day to all those who take a moment to analyse further than surface level rhetoric and shit flinging.
In Russia’s eyes, in their supporters eyes, Russia can do no wrong so long as Ukraine is worse. So Ukraine is painted as worse. When even Chinese diplomats call for an end to Russian aggression and the cleansing of Ukraine, when even China can say Russia has defiled internationally recognised borders; you don’t have to look far to see that Russia is projecting false accusations on Ukraine to remain “Clean” at home.
To add on to the Nazis in culture bit: John A. Macdonald slaughtered natives, initiated residential schools, Eisenhower supported fascist ideas, Churchill slaughtered Bangladeshis through inaction. We still name places for these people. We still remember their nation building. As time goes on and we become a more inclusive society we recognise the evils of their actions and slowly phase them out of the limelight. We have peace and security. We have the time to find new heroes. New stories and new dreams.
When has Ukraine been afforded the liberty to come together as a nation and lay down arms? For nations as burdened as Ukraine, Palestine, Afghanistan, often times the only heroes who exist are people who have had to do horrible things to make sure their country still exists tomorrow. When the fighting is done, when the swords are sheathed we can sit around and have philosophers build nations. Until such a time as Russia leaves Ukraine alone, they do not have the liberty to name Philosophers as heroes. History is always messy and it is the job of future generations, when the wars are over, to correct record for all to see.
TL;DR: If Russia left Ukraine alone for 10 fucking minutes maybe they could work on correcting the internal politics of their nation that has been struggling to survive thanks to Russian aggression.
So why is the Ukrainian government spending millions to erect monuments of Nazis? Why can’t war journalists seem to get any pictures of Ukrainian soldiers without Nazi symbols covering their uniforms?
You should let the New York Times know their direct observations are “Kremlin talking points.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/05/world/europe/nazi-symbols-ukraine.html
From the article you provided:
"In a statement, the Ukrainian Defense Ministry said that, as a country that suffered greatly under German occupation, “We emphasize that Ukraine categorically condemns any manifestations of Nazism.”
“…Questions over how to interpret such symbols are as divisive as they are persistent, and not just in Ukraine…”
“The Anti-Defamation League considers the Totenkopf “a common hate symbol.” But Jake Hyman, a spokesman for the group, said it was impossible to “make an inference about the wearer or the Ukrainian Army” based on the patch.” “The image, while offensive, is that of a musical band,” Mr. Hyman said."
*Ihor Kozlovskyi, a Ukrainian historian and religious scholar, said that the symbols had meanings that were unique to Ukraine and should be interpreted by how Ukrainians viewed them, not by how they had been used elsewhere. “The symbol can live in any community or any history independently of how it is used in other parts of Earth,” Mr. Kozlovskyi said.
See: Swastika in SEA.
I can keep going from this article alone. Did you read the whole thing?
Yeah, the article is Nazi apologia. The point is it’s ubiquitous enough that even the pro-NATO folks keep having to address it. Whereas you’re downplaying its existence.
And the Ukrainian government spending millions erecting monuments for famous Nazis? What’s the apologist spin on that?
LOL
In your previous comment you used the article as proof that Ukraine was a Nazi state because The NYTimes was a credible third party observer I should rely on.
The second this is pointed out, they’re no longer reliable and are infact apologists? Why use the article as evidence anyway?
How much was spent on Mt Rushmore? Confederate statues? War Monuments? Statues of John A. Macdonald? Napoleon? Churchill, Stalin, Lenin, Sadam, Mao, Hirohito, Eisenhower, Sherman?
There’s no apologism that exists for them. The true answer, is that at the time of their installation, these people were considered heroes and their bad deeds were overlooked due to circumstance. As I said earlier; as time goes on and peace prospers our eyes open to the broader world. Right now, Ukraine’s heroes are “dirty” heroes to us. Because we aren’t suffering the way they are. Due to circumstance the heroes they have are the only heroes Ukraine can rely on because even the right to have scholars as heroes has been taken from them by Russia.
Can you name me a nation builder with a clean record?