Lemmy, I have a problem. I fuck up social interactions incredibly frequently, far more often and severely than others do.
I will be speaking what I feel is casually and consistently, and the person I am speaking with will suddenly have a significant change in their demeanor and speech. It both makes me feel bad that they react this way and frustrates me that I made an incorrect interaction.
This doesn’t really occur with people I don’t know well. Rather, it occurs with the people I spend the most time with…my coworkers. I am forced to interact with them all day due to my specific job. With one of them, I would consider them to be my only friend.
I have noticed that they all have specific unspoken “triggers” of speech or behavior that I need to minimize or hide when in front of them. But there are always instances where I cannot recognize a pattern. And even when I can kind of figure out a pattern, I sometimes fail to implement it.
You know the phrase, “think before you speak” right? But how the hell does one apply that to large swaths of conversations that occur all day long? It would be incredibly jarring and odd for me to make large pauses between each and every sentence I make. Is there a better shortcut to this?
Here are some examples of “off limits” speech/behavior patterns that I have noticed among various people:
Coworker 1 - speech that shows mental weakness (esp anxiety), making a workplace error, anxious body language (this one is particularly difficult)
Coworker 2 - speech that shows mental weakness (esp anxiety), statements that are too negative, offering to let them leave work early
Coworker 3 - statements that are too negative, mentioning my dad, statements that may give them too much anxiety (sometimes difficult to discern), talking about coworker 1 too much in a negative way (even tho we both think coworker 1 is a removed)
Coworker 3 also has repeatedly told me that I can come to them with issues, but they always get upset if I say something too negative. They seem to occasionally ask me trick questions too like “are you ok?” even though I know I’m not supposed to answer truthfully. I don’t understand this behavior or how to deal with it.
Coworker 4 - talking too much in general about any topic (they would just prefer I shut up tbh unless there is zero work)
Yes, there is some overlap among them, but they still have a lot of differences that are difficult for me to discern.
I mean, I guess the “easiest” solution would to try to never talk again outside of any speech that is immediately necessary to do my job. Coworker 4 essentially does this. But it is tricky to do and a bit depressing. As a human (I think??), I am unfortunately a social creature. And it does get a bit frustrating that I can’t be authentically me.
Would appreciate some guidance. Sorry for the long post and thanks if you stuck around this far!
If I had the health insurance and/or the money, I wouldn’t ask pseudonymous internet randos, I would ask a psychologist/therapist/councilor.
I had my bouts where I tried a lot of therapy. Therapists weren’t overly helpful to me but were good at quickly draining my bank account. Many of them would say “oh there’s nothing wrong if you do XYZ in a social context” and I would try to explain why it is wrong, similar to how I’ve demonstrated to you guys.
You tried therapy and that’s good the problem is trying to find a GOOD therapist is very difficult.MOST of them shouldn’t be a therapist they can only regurgitate what they were told in class. They can’t think outside of the box and think critically.
I respect the fact that you are trying to find an answer to solve your problem.
You even gave examples of different coworker situations.
Sadly I don’t have an answer for you. The only thing I can say is don’t give up.
Maybe sit down with one of them one on one outside of work. Mention what happened earlier and that you noticed a serious change in their body language and apologize then say you want to do better. Then ask for their input on what you did wrong. Maybe they can help.
They just get upset with me if I do that unfortunately. I’m never supposed to talk to them about things when I make them upset.
Then it sounds like you work with assholes. If person a sits down with person b and says I’m sorry about what happened I want to do better. Please help me. Let’s talk about what I did wrong so I can improve myself. Only an asshole says no.
There is an obvious exception to that statement, if you are sitting there and yelling at them or being incredibly incredibly aggressive during the initial conversation. They might not be receptive right away. But if you come back, say the next day and apologize and say look, I wanna do better know I was in the wrong, but I need your help to improve. Can we talk so I can make sure I never do that again? A human being would say yes a good person will say yes let’s figure this out an asshole will say no.
It’s called compassion and sympathy. Sadly it’s also something that is sorely lacking in the United States and worldwide right now.
I guess here’s a question for you. Is this happening at multiple jobs or is it happening just at the current job?
Be less negative, don’t talk behind people’s backs, leave coworker 4 alone
I first read this as “Don’t talk about people’s backs” and I was in agreement with that cus that would be creepy. lol
Caffeine time…
“Coworker 4 - talking too much in general about any topic (they would just prefer I shut up tbh unless there is zero work)”
I am this person lol without knowing them at all I can say at least for this type of person I think the best thing to do is just be direct about work stuff, get to the point right away after the initial pleasantries of initiating the conversation. If they’re anything like me they might actually dislike conversation for similar reasons that you feel anxious. I just don’t have much to say other than strictly work related business and it stresses me out to be stuck in a “meaningless” conversation.
If coworker 1 really is “a bitch” then there isn’t all that much you can do, just treat her similar to coworker 4 and just accept that she might be judging you for stupid reasons. That’s more of a “her problem” than a you problem. As they say “you can’t make everyone like you.” but that doesn’t have to mean there’s anything “wrong” with you, some people just don’t mesh well.
Yeah with coworker 1 I try to interact minimally with. It works out ok. So I mostly talk to coworkers 2 and 3 but I still tuck up with them all the time.
Nah, coworker 4 isn’t anxious. She just wants us to work as quickly as possible so she can leave as quickly as possible. I don’t talk to her much either tbh. It can be a bit frustrating when she sometimes gets upset when I am chatting with a different coworker (because she wants me to shut up and not talk to anyone at all).
If you are in a quick conversation with someone, you might feel the pressure to avoid any stretches in silence. Try to not feel pressured. Pausing for 15 seconds isn’t feasible, but one or two seconds helps a lot…
It breaks your train of thought, allows you to catch enough things—doesn’t have to be all—to formulate a measured response. If you want to go one step further, try not creating a response in advance and wait for your turn to speak. Instead, listen to what your conversation partner says and restate a quick summary in your own words before you advance the topic.
Think further before, don’t wait for the middle of a conversion. Run potential future conversations through in your mind before you even see these coworkers and decide in advance how you’ll respond to various topics so you don’t have to do it in the moment.
You can do this in front of a mirror to practice the body language you want to project, as well.
By chance, are you located in the Midwest? Or neurodivergent? Because Midwesterners really aren’t comfortable with most kinds of explicit negative emotional displays, and there are very specific ways to indicate negative emotions appropriately. And IME most NTs are distressed by the way NDs tend to express anxiety.
If I could sum up all of what I’ve said into one sentence, it’d be: Stop displaying anxiety to your coworkers.
Oh God…how can I possibly hope to think of every single permutation of conversation??? It sounds like I would be thinking about conversations indefinitely if I did that. Any tips???
No, I am not in the Midwest. I did have a therapist ask me once if I was neurodivergent and I said no. I don’t think I fall in line with anything like autism or anything like that. I do struggle with human interaction but everything else about me seems pretty “neurotypical”. Even in conversation, I actually am able to carry on normally and understand a lot of social cues, I think, as well as I have the ability for eye contact when I am not anxious. I struggle a bit with anxiety and told someone that I struggle sometimes to order food at places because of that. That person told me “that’s weird because you seem totally normal” in a non sarcastic way. It made me feel good actually lol and like I’m very normal passing haha.
It sounds like I would be thinking about conversations indefinitely if I did that. Any tips???
No, that’s pretty much it, think about conversations indefinitely. After a while it’s pretty automatic, people aren’t all that different from each other.
You’re descriptions kind of make your coworkers like NPCs. If you want to have better conversations you should probably get to know them better as people. That can allow you to understand the why of their particulars and eventually guide your conversations more organically.
I mean, forgive me for not explaining every detail of all of my coworkers lives in this thread. The post is already stupidly long and I was trying to get to the meat and potatoes of it for those that might be able to help.
I know some of them quite well and I am constantly learning new things about them. I can speak organically with most of them (except coworker 4), and often do so at length with coworkers 2 and 3. But my mistakes are still frequent enough and significant enough that it causes major problems. I am constantly learning what not do to, but there are seemingly infinite permutations of conversation and infinite ways things can and do go wrong, even when I find some of the patterns.
You don’t need to give explicit details of your coworkers’ lives, but from your writing it really seemed to me that you were more interested in mechanically optimizing conversation. This isn’t necessarily a bad perspective, but people already do that organically by understanding each other more and learning their history. The route of good conversation follows logically from there through empathy.
Well yeah so I kind of wrote the post in a detached manner because I am trying to mechanically optimize conversation. Doing things organically doesn’t work out for me even though my heart is in the right place and I just want to get along with people and for us to be happy.
I’m 30. People telling me that things will work out once you get to know people better do not at all understand that I have spent many many years doing this and yet I still fail horribly multiple times per week. I’m not some teen with a still developing brain. This is the way I am and I want to figure out how to improve and be more correct in my interactions. If it hasn’t organically happened in 30 years, it’s not going to organically happen now. So I need a different approach. Getting to know people and your heart being in the right place aren’t the magic solution for me.
I have just never been skilled in that manner. So I would like to try to break it down into a more logical way where I could actually work on it. All too often I get frustrated that no one has written a guidebook on every facet of human interaction.
Also, I bet it is more socially acceptable to take a beat and think before speaking than you think. I learned that for myself and it helped. It’s not as jarring as you might think. It can even make people appreciate what you say more. If it’s really taking long, you can stall a bit with some “I need to think about that one, hmm” lines.
It is significantly more acceptable to slow down and stop talking than a lot of people think
I’m fighting the same battle, because I am in a quasi-leadership role now, and I have to say the examples of positivity and optimism, when my instinctive reactions to most things are rolling my eyes and sighing because “Ugh, not this shit again.” Is going to be an uphill battle. The funny part is, I’m never actually upset. The more problems get thrown my way, the more excited I get to solve them. Unfortunately I have this very odd habit of presenting my excitement in a way that everyone else in the world understands to be frustration and negativity.
You’re thinking too much already. They might not even be reacting negatively to what you’re saying but you’re so insecure that you read into stuff that isn’t your fault. Or maybe you’re going too deep for work place conversations. Like talking about personal stuff that is not what most people wanna here. Honestly, based on what you posted, you are a weird guy that has weird thinking. It’s okay, no judgemental because I am too. But what I’ve found works with people is too just fit in with them. Don’t air your dirty laundry out too them and just talk about mainstream stuff. If it’s something you think might be what the average person isn’t into, just don’t talk about it.
Yes, they accuse me of “overthinking” things a lot in general. But they don’t realize that I have to do this in order to try to do things more correctly. Lack of enough thought is what gets me into these kinds of situations, you know?
I’m definitely not imagining most of these. If everyone is happily smiling and chatting away, and then I make a mistake which causes a sudden change in facial expression, curt response, and the sudden end of a flowing conversation, then it’s not my imagination.
Coworker 3 is the most lenient/forgiving of them, but issues still arise with them too.
Give me an example of what you said.
I think you might be pretty close to the answer here: small talk. Conversation about stuff that isn’t going to make anyone uncomfortable. People at work aren’t friends, but you’re stuck spending lots of time with them, so try to find topics you’re all happy discussing.
So:
speech that shows mental weakness (esp anxiety)
It depends how you phrase this. Generally, admitting weakness isn’t something I’d do around coworkers, unless you’re putting limits on what you’ll do (“I don’t like closing up, I’d prefer not to”) or looking for help (“I want to get better at X, can you tell me how?”). But that depends on the person.
statements that are too negative
Yeah. At work, be positive or don’t go into the topic. If you think a coworker dislikes a thing and you want to bond over hating it, don’t go first, get them to show you how far they’re willing to go, then don’t go further.
making a workplace error
I dunno what to say about this. Ask for help at getting better? Apologize for screwing up? Otherwise I wouldn’t mention it again.
mentioning my dad
Again, keep conversation positive and light. If you’re bitching about your dad, don’t. If you’re saying what a great guy he is and they still get uncomfortable, just avoid the topic.
talking about coworker 1 too much in a negative way
Don’t do this. In the best case scenario, you bond over hating a coworker. In the worst case, the workplace becomes toxic. Accept that you’re stuck dealing with coworker 1 and move on. At most, acknowledge that coworker 1 can be difficult, but move on.
So. Smalltalk. Find stuff to talk about that nobody is gonna have strong negative reactions to: TV, streamers, sports, weather, traffic/transit, local events, weekend activities, happy family events. Avoid stuff that people have strong negative reactions to: politics, religion, painful topics, suffering, etc.
No, I fuck up even in small talk. For example, we were talking about supplements and exercising one day.
Coworker 2: Yeah, running a 10 minute mile is easy. Anyone can do it.
Me (a slow runner): What??? Idk dude that is kind of hard for me.
Coworker 2: Well for some people walking is healthier than running!
Me: What??? Ok sure, Coworker 2
Coworker 2: (angrily shuts down and refuses to say anything else to me for several hours even after I apologize)
Coworker 2 being angry with me was one thing. But I felt bad because coworker 3 was also chatting and it meant that they no longer got to speak either because coworker 2 was so mad.
Small talk with coworker 1 doesn’t work at all because they will randomly randomly act condescending to you when you make a joke or say something that doesn’t land exactly with them. It’s a bit demoralizing so I try to interact with coworker 1 the least.
I don’t outright tell coworkers 1 and 2 that I am anxious. But I will sometimes obsess over certain work things that I am anxious about and they get wise to it and get upset with me…even if what I am specifically doing to them is apologizing for acting weird because I was simply anxious.
I had considered coworker 3 to be my friend a bit tbh. But that is not supposed to be the case, right? We are not supposed to be friends or anything. I am supposed to find friends elsewhere and not think of them that way, right?
If people want to discuss serious topics with me then I’m just not supposed to contribute, right??
If your chats are as innocent as the running topic then don’t mind their issues. Nobody can know what someone’s state is that makes them sensitive to random triggering.
As for what others said about bullshitting about someone behind their back or being overall negative, you can work on those.
There is no ‘supposed to’ about making friends with people you work with. Some may have that opinion but lots of people have made friends with coworkers. Sure if the friendship goes sour it could get awkward at work, but lots of people can navigate friendship without drama.
It’s hard to tell nuance from a text rendering of that conversation, but it potentially sounds like you were rude to coworker 2, reacting dismissively to their comment.
Me: What??? Ok sure, Coworker 2
.
Small talk with coworker 1 doesn’t work at all because they will randomly randomly act condescending to you when you make a joke or say something that doesn’t land exactly with them.
…so are you coworker 1? Lol
I get that I am truly a horrible person, truly. I struggle with that every day. I did try to apologize to my coworker in that instance, but they were not at all receptive to it. Usually the things that I say that get reactions like that are much more innocuous…like letting coworker 2 know that they can leave early (we are salaried and still get a full days pay if we leave early). Or apologizing to coworker 2 that I was freaking out about a work related task simply because I was anxious about it.
But no, coworker 1 is on a level that is difficult for me to describe. Coworker 1 causes issues with almost everyone they come in contact with including the leaders of many different departments. It has been so bad with coworker 1 that they have made me think that I was going to get fired and/or made me want to quit my job. Coworker 1 has had multiple complaints filed against them to HR by multiple different people. To my knowledge, that has not occurred on my end at all.
So coworker 1 is a bit dangerous to interact with, hence many of us do so minimally.
Look, communicating awkwardly doesn’t make you a horrible person. I think part of it is you have a confidence problem. It sounds like you always cowtow to your coworkers’ reactions, even going so far as apologizing when you haven’t objectively done anything wrong (your responses don’t seem that weird, but maybe it is the way you say things). It seems odd to me that anyone would be offended by an offer to go home early, unless you’re making it seem like you specifically don’t want them to be around.
At the end of the day, your coworkers are just people with their own issues and imperfections. They are probably not experts at communication either, so don’t treat them as such. I would not take any social cues from coworker 1.
You may not be able to change the dynamic at work, so my advice is to find a way to socialize outside of work (with people who actually like & respect you!). That way you won’t have to rely on your workplace for those needs.
I had considered coworker 3 to be my friend a bit tbh. But that is not supposed to be the case, right? We are not supposed to be friends or anything. I am supposed to find friends elsewhere and not think of them that way, right?
I can’t tell if this is sarcastic or genuine.
If it’s genuine: congrats on finding a new friend. Don’t cut them off because an internet rando said something.
If it’s sarcastic: it’s inappropriate to react to advice that you solicited in that manner. Since I’m being honest, it’s more appropriate to honestly state where you disagree, and why the advice doesn’t work for you. That way I can better understand your situation.
Coworker 2: Yeah, running a 10 minute mile is easy. Anyone can do it. …
If someone is full of shit at work, I’d just nod and smile. Unless there’s something to be gained by calling them out, I’d just note that they are uninformed on that topic and move on.
If people want to discuss serious topics with me then I’m just not supposed to contribute, right??
Again, I’m not sure if this is sarcastic or genuine. The two question marks, and the “right” make me think it’s sarcastic, but I could be wrong.
Either way: talk about what you want. However, if you want to keep things civil with your coworkers, it’s easier if you avoid divisive topics.
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Keep conversation away from your beliefs until you know where the other person stands.
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Ask questions. People like talking about themselves, so that’s an easy way to keep things moving.
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Make noncommittal statements.
I can’t tell if this is sarcastic or genuine.
I apologize if anything came off as sarcastic! I am being very serious in my questions. I don’t really understand how any of this works. I have been reading the replies but it’s tricky to respond to them all.
With the friend thing, there are a lot of philosophies people have about work. Some people believe I shouldn’t speak and should only work all day, while others seem to prefer to chat once in a while. For me, it’s difficult for me to know the most correct way to act in terms of these two philosophies. It seems like a lot of society would like the former…that I should speak minimally and just do my work. I struggle with the former philosophy because you spend most of your waking hours working, so I would like to get some enjoyment out of it. But that is wrong, no? I am supposed to hate my job and just be a good worker bee, no? It’s tricky because humans are social creatures but I know I’m not supposed to feed my needs like that.
And like the person who I had considered to be a friend. They have a busy life outside of work so it’s wrong to bother them, correct?
The person who I had considered to be a friend sometimes likes to talk about serious topics. But I am not really sure what to do when that comes up because I at times give the wrong answers. I know a lot about their beliefs. We have different ones and usually that’s perfectly ok and I we don’t really argue or anything. But sometimes I still do it wrong or say something with too much emotion in my voice or something.
If someone is full of shit at work, I’d just nod and smile. Unless there’s something to be gained by calling them out, I’d just note that they are uninformed on that topic and move on.
They weren’t actually full of shit…they are just super fit and don’t realize that they are a bit outside the norm.
So one of the things I’ve noticed is that I slipped up like this because it was in the middle of a flowing conversation. I didn’t stop to realize that I was about to say the wrong thing because we were having a lot of back and forth lighthearted chatting. That’s why I’ve brought up this topic to begin with tbh. If I am not in a flowing conversation, it’s easier for me to pause and think before a response. When I am in a conversation I fuck up. I don’t know anyone who pauses between each sentence even utilizing this “think before you speak” attitude, so I’d like to find out how to implement it in a better way. Idk.
I do appreciate your time.
Hey, thanks for taking the time to respond. I’m enjoying this because it gives me a chance to understand my own beliefs. And it’s fun to spout off.
Some people believe I shouldn’t speak and should only work all day, while others seem to prefer to chat once in a while. For me, it’s difficult for me to know the most correct way to act in terms of these two philosophies.
There’s no correct answer here. You’ve expressed a preference for chatting, so let’s support that.
We have different [beliefs] and usually that’s perfectly ok and I we don’t really argue or anything. But sometimes I still do it wrong or say something with too much emotion in my voice or something.
Occasional or friendly disagreement is fine, so long as it doesn’t poison the relationship.
Could you pause before replying to sort out your feelings? If you’re concerned that you have too much emotion in your voice, that could give you time to notice your emotional state and dial it down. You could even turn the disagreement into more of a joke or quip rather than something heartfelt.
You can use your pause as part of the conversation. Give a thoughtful “huh” or maybe start with a throw away phrase of “I hadn’t thought about that” and then pause.
Some people are in a hurry to say their piece - they really wanna get their thought or idea in. In my experience, it’s helpful not to do that. It’s difficult though.
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The smartest people I’ve ever met pause for at least five seconds before answering direct questions. Some for much longer. There’s a Supreme Court justice who I’m told pauses for like 25 seconds or more anytime she’s asked a question.
I can be like this sometimes, but I normally try to let people know that the dogs are whirring.
- Hmm, good question…let me think…
- How can I put this?
- What’s the phrase I’m looking for?
I’ll especially do this if I’m speaking to people whose first language is something else, as I’ll want to answer the question without resorting to idioms or slang. No point telling a Frenchman that the situation is a bit of a dog and pony show.
I once had a boss like this and when he finally said something it was always “it depends”. I often wanted him to give a simple, quick, direct answer but I eventually realized things were more complicated than that. It reminded me of the Tolkien quote: “Go not to the Elves for counsel for they will answer both no and yes.”
like most things, conversation skill is mainly not a conscious thing. any skill a human is reasonably good at is done mostly by unconscious parts of brain, under only loose direction from your conscious mind. most things happen too quickly for deliberate conscious reasoning, which is rather slow. you can’t expect to create a set of rules to run through in your head while you converse. it is more like training a neural net, or an llm or something. you give it feedback, like when you make someone angry, you tell it ‘don’t do that’ (ideally just in the form of feeling bad) and eventually it learns. but it takes time.
I always say that thinking before speaking is a bit like wiping before going number two.
Maybe that’s why I don’t have any friends.
If we have a toilet paper shortage, I’m blaming you. lol
Just don’t say anything I wouldn’t say. I wouldn’t care about leaving large gaps between subjects if you need to think beforehand, because it’ll take the focus away from the subject and onto “being in your own head”. If the pausing is after literally every sentence then it might be that the conversation just naturally isn’t going anywhere. (E.g. the other person doesn’t want to talk, there’s no conversational threads, no more information needs to be added, its just a statement that needs no reply.) But if its like this all the time everyday with everyone then maybe speak to a speech therapist (or someone who can help with speech impediments, or could get a referal from your doctor). Coworker 4 is an example of not letting they’re personal and professional lives intermix. I think that talking to your coworkers about your struggles all the time is emotionally draining even if you didn’t mean to, put yourself in their shoes, if someone would talk about their problems repeatedly to you, wouldn’t you get tired eventually? Not sure about coworker 3 asking “are you OK” because I don’t know their vibe from the post, it could be everything from: the standard “hello” “hi” interaction to “you seem like you want to talk” (but I lack context to understand if its a positive or negative vibe.)
No, I don’t currently pause between each sentence. Usually conversation flows quite smoothly. But it flows until I make a grave error and then it shuts down catastrophically. My question was saying “how can I think before I speak” because pausing after each sentence would be incredibly jarring and not work with conversational flow if that makes sense.
Coworker 3 has occasionally asked that out of genuine concern when I have been having a bad time. But it’s a trick question because I’m not supposed to respond that I am having a bad time. It is the incorrect response and will make them upset, even if they tell me that I can be honest. It’s very confusing because coworker 3 will occasionally tell me that it’s ok to come to them with things, but the reality is that isn’t true. If I do that, it makes them upset. So one of the biggest things is that I have worked to not tell coworker 3 when something is bothering me and not share feelings like this with them. But it is confusing when they do things that indicate that it’s ok and welcomed for me to do so when it isn’t. They say one thing but I am supposed to act in a way that is discordant with what they indicate, which is confusing.
And sometimes coworker 3 likes to discuss serious topics. So I sometimes accidentally say something about the topic with too much emotion in my voice or something or the wrong statement in general and then I fuck up the whole thing.
It could be the case that coworker 3 wants to help you, but is unable to, and that makes them feel really bad. And I think that talking about serious topics with too much emotion can be off-putting for a discussion. And can communicate the heightened level of emotion you’re displaying.
It’s called empathy. Their words and actions obviously have an effect on you, so it shouldn’t be surprising that the opposite is true as well. Reading people and their moods inform this and help you predict how they might react in the moment.
I suspect most of what you’re talking about is about timing. Taking a jovial mood and injecting serious topics without warning will piss people off. You’re killing the mood. “Don’t be so negative” sounds to me like you’re not reading the room. Let people enjoy those times. If you need to raise a serious subject with someone - a deft “now’s not the time, but I’d like to talk about something” allows them to finish up, switch gears, and then have a more serious discussion.
The same goes the other way. Injecting jokes in a serious discussion can cause problems too.
The whole thing is like merging into traffic. You have to match the pace of the traffic flow. Too fast or too slow causes pile-ups.
