• EightBitBlood@lemmy.world
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    24 hours ago

    whereas the foundation of modern economics study is based on extensively justifying the violence of those who fund their “science”.

    Please prove this statement. It is wildly inaccurate. Specifically, write out the actual logic you are implying with it because it is very obviously unsound.

    Do you feel all of calculus is about having sex with kids?

    Not joking. Isaac Newton, the inventor of modern calculus was also super into the arcane, specifically alchemy, and believed immortality was achievable through having sex with enough kids. He literally wrote papers on it. In addition to calculus.

    Should I therefore not use Calculus because Newton practiced the belief that having sex with kids could make him immortal, and being the inventor of Calculus, used it to make that happen for him?

    Do you understand why this is so illogical? It is the same logic you are applying to an entire classification of math that you clearly don’t understand aside from whatever history of it you have cherry picked for blame that should very much be directed elsewhere.

    • supersquirrel@sopuli.xyz
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      17 hours ago

      “The way economics is taught in universities does not include half the tools and concepts necessary to understand economic problems. The core of economics teaching is mathematics, statistics, macroeconomics and microeconomics, meaning that there is no pluralism in terms of theories and disciplines,” says Arthur Jatteau, the University of Lille economist who led the project.

      Such formalisation is a product of the discipline’s history. Economics started as a branch of philosophy, evolving into a social science in the 19th century. Even then, it was largely free of mathematics. Adam Smith’s The Wealth of Nations includes no equations. Despite its humble beginnings as a ‘moral science,’ the discipline soon adopted mathematical modelling in an effort to wear the impenetrable armour of objectivity that only ‘hard’ sciences like physics can boast of.

      The turn towards neoclassical approaches, which emphasise supply and demand equilibriums, enabled economists to pass their policy prescriptions as scientific analysis. “Mathiness comes from this pursuit of influence,” says George DeMartino, an economist who teaches at the University of Denver. “It sends a signal to policymakers that they don’t understand what economists do and therefore they must defer to their judgement.” Milton Friedman, the high priest of free markets, famously argued that it did not matter if models made unrealistic assumptions, as long as they accurately forecast the economy’s ups and downs. For many economists, this approach is necessary for the science to maintain its academic rigour. “Mathematics in economics brings transparency in that it makes assumptions explicit. So the models still work in most cases,” says Jon Danielsson, an economist and co-director of the LSE’s Systemic Risk Centre.

      The issue came to the fore recently due to the failure of models to predict the inflation crisis. In an astounding admission, Belgium’s central bank governor Pierre Wunsch acknowledged that the European Central Bank’s models were practically useless. “It was more or less impossible in our models to produce any inflation that would not be temporary,” Wunsch said last year, explaining that they always showed price rises falling under the bank’s two percent target. The issue had broader political repercussions, with central banks taking flak for failing to grapple with the first inflation crisis since the early 1980s.

      While concerns over academic integrity and research reproducibility are not uncommon among other sciences, economics faces a much bigger ethical crisis. One piece missing from its models, argues George DeMartino, author of The Tragic Science: How Economists Cause Harm, is an understanding of the harm that theories can cause, as most economists believe that some collateral damage is the price to be paid for a higher good. The gap separating economists from those who cannot master its advanced mathematics results in a sense of entitlement.

      “There’s this profound paternalism in the profession that economists know best, and society should defer to our judgement because everybody will be better off,” DeMartino says. “If you take this approach, you find that it’s okay to deceive.” One example is the ‘Shock therapy’ imposed on post-Soviet Russia by a group of Russian and foreign economists, seeking to transform the country into a market economy. The economic argument, DeMartino suggests in his book, was a smoke screen for economists to pursue their agenda. As an antidote to such behaviour, he believes that economics teaching needs to incorporate ethics, notably what he calls ‘moral geometry’: the study of how complex economic policies could affect and potentially harm different groups.

      “Until economics recognises its limits in terms of predicting the future, we economists shouldn’t have too much influence in these areas,” says DeMartino, adding: “Economics has aspired to be the physics of the social world for over 100 years. That pretension has to be dropped.”

      https://www.worldfinance.com/special-reports/is-economics-broken

      As it happens, most of these concepts were borrowed from the methodology of natural science in general and from astronomy, or astrophysics as it is now called, in particular. Early practitioners in the field of political economy can, in all probability, be acquitted of the charge of harbouring any malicious intentions in developing this methodology but introducing concepts from mathematics and physics threw open the door of adding the appellation ‘science’ to the subject of economics. Indeed, the popularly known LSE had been given the title London School of Economics and Political Science when it was established in 1895, thus effectively claiming that economics was, in fact, a science no different from the natural sciences.

      Meanwhile, the mathematisation of economics had given it the superficial credentials of a science so that any other views, particularly value judgements, were given short shrift and dismissed as lacking in rigour. The claim – essentially untested – was that policy-making relating to issues of social justice and equity should not interfere in the functioning of markets, as it would lead to sub-optimal outcomes. Ideally, the state should only concern itself with internal security and defence and leave everything else to the markets.

      What is the reality? As an intellectual discipline, economics has built its theoretical framework on several assumptions regarding the behaviour of individual men and women and about society within which those individuals live. But the economic system that we have to live with, apart from its own internal mechanics and rationale, is not only concerned with inflation and unemployment; it has to operate within some ethical framework. It is man-made and needs to conform with the underlying value system of society. However, many economists contend that introducing morality is outside the remit of both traditional and neoliberal, market-driven economic theorising. The question is whether such a contention can be seriously maintained. While people might take a relativistic view of morality it is also the case that there are basic ethical feelings that virtually all of us as human beings share – kindness, harmony, fairness and justice.

      As Keynes said: ‘The master economist must possess a rare combination of gifts… He must be a mathematician, historian, statesman, philosopher – in some degree and touch abstract and concrete in the same flight of thought.’ He also said that ‘the fundamental problem is to find a social system which is efficient economically and morally’. Keynes made these comments nearly a century ago and they remain as valid today as in the 1930s. It is a harsh judgment but economics, pretending to be a science, has failed abjectly to provide solutions to the world’s most pressing problems. Let it now learn humility. Perhaps, wisdom can then follow.

      https://www.thefridaytimes.com/04-Sep-2025/why-economics-isn-t-the-science-we-think-it-is%3Fversion=amp

      Unlike the labor theory of value, the utility or subjective theory is completely empirically untestable, a point which Marxist economist Paul Cockshott makes in his defense of the labor theory and critique of Alfred Marshall, who’s often considered the father of neoclassical economics[3]. The neoclassicals consider consumer demand to be a primary determinant of commodity prices, but a commodity’s perceived utility is an entirely subjective factor which cannot be quantified, and thus cannot be measured or compared to other commodity values numerically. This is the opposite of labor theory which measures commodity values by the average quantity of labor time needed to produce it. The utility theory of value is entirely based on the subjective perceptions of consumers which can’t be quantified and thus can’t be compared to commodity prices. This means that neoclassical economists can never actually test their theory that consumer demand determines the price of a commodity, unlike labor time on the other hand, which correlates very closely to commodity prices (as we will discuss later). The subjective nature of the utility theory, or the subjective theory of value, has been very useful for the neoclassical ideologues who defend it and allege that it has disproved the labor theory.

      https://www.midwesternmarx.com/articles/neoclassical-economics-postmodernist-philosophytwo-academic-expressions-of-the-ruling-class-by-edward-liger-smith

      A Nobel prize in economics implies that the human world operates much like the physical world: that it can be described and understood in neutral terms, and that it lends itself to modelling, like chemical reactions or the movement of the stars. It creates the impression that economists are not in the business of constructing inherently imperfect theories, but of discovering timeless truths.

      To illustrate just how dangerous that kind of belief can be, one only need to consider the fate of Long-Term Capital Management, a hedge fund set up by, among others, the economists Myron Scholes and Robert Merton in 1994. With their work on derivatives, Scholes and Merton seemed to have hit on a formula that yielded a safe but lucrative trading strategy. In 1997 they were awarded the Nobel prize. A year later, Long-Term Capital Management lost $4.6bn (£3bn)in less than four months; a bailout was required to avert the threat to the global financial system. Markets, it seemed, didn’t always behave like scientific models.

      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/11/nobel-prize-economics-not-science-hubris-disaster

      • phutatorius@lemmy.zip
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        13 hours ago

        Economics started as a branch of philosophy

        So did physics. So did chemistry. That proves precisely nothing.

        • supersquirrel@sopuli.xyz
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          35 minutes ago

          Well, here is the thing chemistry and physics evolved out of philosophy as a pursuit of finding theories to explain the world whereas economics evolved out of philosophy as a way of imposing an ideology on others about how society is best structured and what is “natural” for society vs. “unnatural”.

          Chemistry and physics are actually sciences, they seek to understand the natural world through theories, economics on the otherhand imposes its ideology on reality and then starts from there in its quest to understand as it cosplays as an actual respectable science.

          Chemistry and physics have predictive power, economics is like music theory it is always just explaining why things happened in retrospect with no actual window into what motivates and causes patterns. Everything is imposed after the fact and then worked back from the imposed set of axioms. The best that can be said about economics at this point is that it is a set of pattern matching tools that are struggling to evolve into a science, and yeah I don’t think it is there yet or even particularly close because of the mindset of most people in economics who have sway over the direction the “science” moves do not think and act like scientists.

      • EightBitBlood@lemmy.world
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        22 hours ago

        You know I can link you a bunch of books that claim Bigfoot is real? That doesn’t mean it is. That requires looking at the ideas presented in those books and analyzing them for truth, rather than copying and pasting them as if that means they are.

        I’m sorry, but just because you’ve been convinced economics is some kind of fantastical force of oppression instead of math that figures out slopes doesn’t mean it is. Sure you can point me to the flawed articles that did that to your brain, but that doesn’t mean any form of math has that kind of power. That is a truly insane thought.

        Your perception of what economics is entirely dictated by sources you trust but can’t elaborate on further.

        Please elaborate why you believe these sources if you want anyone to be convinced they should be believed.

          • EightBitBlood@lemmy.world
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            21 hours ago

            I moved no goal posts. You failed to explain your previous statement in anyway. You just linked a bunch of material with no explanation as to how that material supports anything.

      • supersquirrel@sopuli.xyz
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        16 hours ago

        Deducing laws from premises deemed eternal and beyond question is a time-honoured method. For thousands of years, monks in medieval monasteries built a vast corpus of scholarship doing just that, using a method perfected by Thomas Aquinas known as scholasticism. However, this is not the method used by scientists, who tend to require assumptions to be tested empirically before a theory can be built out of them.

        But, economists will maintain, this is precisely what they themselves do – what sets them apart from the monks is that they must still test their hypotheses against the evidence. Well, yes, but this statement is actually more problematic than many mainstream economists may realise. Physicists resolve their debates by looking at the data, upon which they by and large agree. The data used by economists, however, is much more disputed. When, for example, Robert Lucas insisted that Eugene Fama’s efficient-markets hypothesis – which maintains that since a free market collates all available information to traders, the prices it yields can never be wrong – held true despite “a flood of criticism”, he did so with as much conviction and supporting evidence as his fellow economist Robert Shiller had mustered in rejecting the hypothesis. When the Swedish central bank had to decide who would win the 2013 Nobel prize in economics, it was torn between Shiller’s claim that markets frequently got the price wrong and Fama’s insistence that markets always got the price right. Thus it opted to split the difference and gave both men the medal – a bit of Solomonic wisdom that would have elicited howls of laughter had it been a science prize.

        https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/jul/11/how-economics-became-a-religion

        Today, the influence of religious thinking on economic thinking is most readily visible in America’s public conversation about economics and the country’s debate over economic policy. Members of evangelical Protestant denominations in particular hold sharply different views on many questions of economic policy than Americans on average, including members of the country’s mainline Protestant denominations. These differences are even greater among evangelical denominations considered “traditionalist.” Similar differences appear in responses to surveys focusing not on economic policy but on underlying presumptions about how the economy works: whether individual economic success is mostly a matter of luck or hard work, or whether the poor are trapped in their poverty.

        Such religiously grounded differences in people’s worldview also go a long way toward explaining the puzzle, much discussed in the empirical political science literature, of why so many Americans vote in ways apparently contrary to their economic self-interest. Why, for example, do so many low-income voters oppose taxes that they would never have to pay and benefit programs on which they rely? Why do so many people living in areas blighted by industrial waste and pollution oppose regulation or other policies to prevent such damage, or efforts to clean up what has occurred in the past? The strong correlation between people’s views on such matters and either their religious affiliations or their individual religious beliefs suggests that any effort to understand these observed patterns without taking account of the role of religious ideas in shaping people’s thinking on matters of economics is, at best, seriously incomplete.

        https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/the-deep-religious-roots-of-american-economics/

        As Romer told me: ‘You can’t overestimate the way that “theory beats fact” has infected economics.’

        https://aeon.co/essays/economics-is-once-again-becoming-a-worldly-science

        Mainstream economics focuses on two production factors — labour and capital. Energy and raw materials are ignored, which means that biophysical or ecological limits are disregarded in the pursuit of growth. According to Australian economist Steve Keen, that approach was embedded within the discipline of economics when Adam Smith shifted the focus on sources of wealth from land/environment to labour in his famous book The Wealth of Nations.

        https://theconversation.com/an-economist-explains-textbook-economics-is-badly-flawed-when-it-comes-to-climate-change-227429

        By reframing overt poverty, slums, and inequality as seen in parts of America and all across the undeveloped world — which is a direct result of neoliberalism and imperialist capitalism as a whole — as a byproduct of freedom and a failure of a country or people to elevate itself out of poverty, squalor is made a ‘misuse of liberty,’ thus negligible. The poor are not downtrodden, but a vast array of individual failures. Neoliberal ideology and its countless predecessors take from terms like ‘poverty’ any serious meaning: they become non-words, ignorable, pointless, societal troughs worthy of neglect.

        With the individualism inherent to neoliberalism, the working-class thus loses a cohesive sense of identity, as it’s tainted with a sense of ‘otherness.’ It’s no longer a ‘class’, as individualist ideology and economics mean each individual is seen as an isolated unit, not as a person with an identity contingent on the collective. The working class is a mass of neoliberalism’s disappointments; an aggregate of lost causes with a dormant potential for improvement, instead of a class whose poverty is a systemic symptom.

        https://medium.com/deterritorialization/the-neoliberal-re-definition-of-the-human-bba208b82a7b