Do it Canada! Purchase the SAAB and your pilots will have more seat time. The F-35 is a maintenance pig.
It’s what happens when you harm and betray a peaceful ally. Let’s do this! 🍁
Gripen is a great jet for Canadian requirements.
If I remember correctly, Saab has even offered to have the jets built.in Canada.
You do remember correctly. It’s part of SAABs strategy, and if I remember correctly, there were also talks about Canada building their global eye AWAC
F35 doesn’t even work.
F35 used to not work. Now it works well, after running away over budget and time.
Why doesn’t Canada design and build its own fighter jet?
Yeah, that’s kinda like asking your mechanic neighbor “why don’t you design and build your own car”. Sure with enough time and money somebody could do this but it’s likely to cost more, take longer, and have issues that an experienced producer has already come across and accounted for.
Why redesign the wheel when we can build the wheels our allies designed? And I don’t mean our former allies to the south. I wouldn’t want to import Gripens, but it would be fantastic if we started building them here
It requires a massive investment in research and development of advanced aerodynamics, material science, supply chain, skilled mechanics, etc. You just don’t pop out a plane from a group of engineers like we did during WW1. Creating a fighter jet that is capable enough to defend against today’s adversaries will require a couple decades of investment to start from scratch. And yes I know you probably think that we can just use the knowledge already available from previous fighter jet programs like older American jets but even if they had de-classified designs they still don’t have the supply chain and technical experts to pull it off in a few years.
I don’t think 20 years is enough especially for countries without the experience to fall back on. Not counting licensed builds. Engines and materials science. Also all the software. Digital and analog instruments. Modern fighters operate in connection with ground data links, satellite data links, other partner aircraft data links. All incredibly expensive and time consuming to develop
Countries with experience in Europe are all trying to partner up because of the financial costs and different part specialities for a 6th gen fighter and mockups make them look more like they’d be a gen 5.5 and they’re pretty much all targeting ~2035 operationally when serious planning started between 2015-2020. I would not bet on any of the gen 5+ being operationally ready for serial production by 2035.
I don’t think I can understate just how ridiculously expensive it is to start up your own jet fighting industry from basically scratch.
In the entire world, there are only 5 countries that produce fighter jets. USA, Sweden, France, China, Russia.
We tried once. Our government lacks vision sometimes.
We should bring back the program! And in the name of true Canadian patriotism, I vote we call it the Avro Lavigne.
Giant waste of money. Much smarter to buy a product someone else already wasted all the money to develop. Current-generation fighter jets are incredibly complex, Russia can’t even figure out how to mass-produce one at all, even before the sanctions, and they’re a very militarized state. Why spend 5x as much to develop something worse than what they can just buy?
What Canada really needs is a massive drone program. Drones from the size of a 747 to the size of a dime, and everything inbetween. The entire Russia-Ukraine war is a drone war.
JK, fuck American tech
Try searching Google with “f-35 sales before:2024-11-01”. Countries were lining up to buy them. Boeing had a years long manufacturing backlog.
No matter how you, personally, feel about the F-35 and the US military-industrial complex, Trump wants to both increase exports in general and tout US military strength. Most of NATO running with the F-35 would have been great for both of those. He could have succeeded at it by doing nothing. Complete failure of his own goals.
Lockheed Martin. Boeing makes the F18 (for example)
I hope we snub those unhinged fash. Fuck them.
And the Gripen will be built here in Canada!!!
To be fair, we’ve manufactured a lot of parts for other country’s F35s so far. That’s quite standard for defense contracts. Still, if Saab commits to bringing more guaranteed manufacturing jobs than the F35 program, it could be worth it. If this gives us a leg up in F35 manufacturing bids, that could also be worth it. Feels like a strong play regardless of outcome.
As a Linköping native, I can tell you right now how this is going to go down.
Saab will offer a really sweet deal including Canadian factories that can produce everything that Sweden makes for the Gripen. It will be on a short timeline and a good price. Canada will use this as leverage against the USA. Then the USA will finally set their foot down and tell Canada in no uncertain terms that if they buy Gripen they’ll get locked out of various US weapons systems indefinitely and end up on the US’s shit list. But if they stop their ridiculous outburst they can get on the shortlist for some really cool destructive toys.
Also, aren’t we all supposed to be one team America, you me and Mexico, guy?
Canada will most likely cave and Gripen will have fulfilled its role as a bargaining chip. I wouldn’t even blame Canada, this is how it’s gone down almost every time in the past 30 years and Canada has much better reasons than most to keep on the US’s good side.
Yeah, I saw that. I’m not sure how that 10k number relates to the number created by F35-related manufacturing so far.
We might not lose any jobs with dropping the F35. Canada is just allowed to bid on contracts to build parts for all the F35 production, not just our own.
Yeah, we might not. We could still bid on F35 production runs. I think the specifics will be quite important to determining what’s a good outcome.
Regardless, I like that we’re courting other options even if it just results in leverage elsewhere.
Now that the US is sending them to Saudi, how secure will they be from investigation by foreign adversaries?
Plus, the entire supply chain system of relying on the US for software and hardware updates, having to physically send the planes to the US for maintenance, all while the US continues to talk about annexing us is completely fucking bonkers.
Even without the annexation threats the setup would be stupid.
I know it’s a fancy and advanced plane, but knowing how the US military industrial complex works I’m pretty sure you’re paying a high multiplier for no reason too.
Super advanced, so advanced that Iran shot what 3 down?
I wanna remind everyone that THIS was one of the pictures Iran released to prove they shot down an F-35.
It was actually more like 0.
There have been no confirmed downings of F-35’s.
While it’s fully possible that the US is lying about that, it’s equally possible that the claims from Iran are also lies, because half of military action is information and misinformation. I wouldn’t lean on foreign propaganda any more than I would domestic propaganda.
If you want a laugh, go look up the photos Iran doctored up for this bit of propaganda. I remember one had an F35 with cockpit the size of a school bus on it. Another had the tail section on backwards. Probably AI slop, but fake photos to be sure.
Oh I remember that one well.
There have been no confirmed downings of F-35’s.
Several “oops this plane just fell off the flight deck, oh well, shit happens” articles in recent memory. A great way to explain why the Navy is suddenly down a vehicle without having to tell anyone in the general public what happened.
Several “oops this plane just fell off the flight deck, oh well, shit happens”
Those were F/A-18s.
Oh so this is the part where we provide no sources to our claim. Then claim the sources are unreliable!
Sure, that all may be the case, but counterpoint: ospreys.
Is this a contest to crash the most aircraft?
Because my man, the GOAT, John “New Plane” McCain would like to have a word.
I fucking hope so
Please do
There is unfortunately a lot of nuance here.
A Gripen does not do the same things that an F35 does.
Europe simply does not have an answer to 5th or 6th generation fighters and I feel like wanting to be supporting of peoples respective countries and acknowledging the US being pretty awful right now is making people unwilling to acknowledge this glaring and incredibly important fault in western arms manufacturing outside of the US.
Humans benefit greatly when people, groups etc, specialize as less resources need to be wasted reinventing the wheel, but when it comes to defence, the current situations shows how flat footed CANZUK has been left by allowing the US to basically become the single source for some of the most crucial defence items.
Projects like FCAS need to cut the bureaucratic bullshit and speed up development as its increasingly obvious that the US is not a stable partner. CANZUK despite years of warning about these facts remained unwilling to spend, viewing it as inefficient, and with every individual state that has the capabilities holding recalcitrant attitudes, fighting over who gets to build what.
Basically, what I am saying, is that I would love to have non US weaponry, but if that weaponry can’t compete with US weaponry, there isn’t much of a point.
I mean, quite frankly, for us, Canada, the most important thing we could possibly do this decade, is to internally create our own ultimate strategic deterrents. Anything short of that would leave us completely defenceless to our greatest military threat, and largest neighbour. There is literally no chance we win any conventional war, so in a way, not even this fighter deal matters.
I agree you on all points, but i want to add that weapon systems where manufactorer has a back door open and they can do things like remotelly lock the missile systems or other weapons, does not really sound appealing.
Basically, what I am saying, is that I would love to have non US weaponry, but if that weaponry can’t compete with US weaponry, there isn’t much of a point.
the best fighter jet is still useless if it can just be disabled, and/or if the other support service can just be stopped
I don’t disagree at all, hence my conclusion that if niether is effective we must do what is:
the most important thing we could possibly do this decade, is to internally create our own ultimate strategic deterrents
oh okay sry i misunderstood then i think ^^
I think we’d do not badly in a conventional war when you factor in the fact that the Americans would be fighting on two fronts - within Canada against Canadians, and within America against the substantial chunk of Americans who would be trying to bring down the regime that was causing something as insane as an invasion of Canada to be undertaken. Plus there’d be international support at play. It would be a huge mess. Canada would just need to make the mess as big and as long as possible.
That said, preventing America from invading in the first place would be ideal, so the more preemptive preparation to strengthen Canada’s position and weaken America’s the better. Shifting our military supply lines to European sources is a step in that direction for many reasons. I do think a nuclear deterrent would be ideal, but that’s a couple of steps of escalation further down the line I think.
within Canada against Canadians, and within America against the substantial chunk of Americans who would be trying to bring down the regime that was causing something as insane as an invasion of Canada to be undertaken.
Given the current trajectory, I have little faith that they would mount an effective internal resistance.
I think we’d do not badly in a conventional war when you factor in
No matter what, conventional war is horrific and wed be losing our families, homes, friends, and more. Effective strategic deterrents make it such that we would never reach that stage and as such, is far more economical and moral.
I do think a nuclear deterrent would be ideal, but that’s a couple of steps of escalation further down the line I think.
You cant make nukes loudly in such a situation, but ass we’ve seen, you definitely cant make them under the gun. The only time is before the circumstances that you feel would necessitate them when we are still not viewed as enemies.
Disarming yourself as to avoiding presenting as a threat clearly does not work.
No matter what, conventional war is horrific and wed be losing our families, homes, friends, and more.
Which is why I said “preventing America from invading in the first place would be ideal”
You cant make nukes loudly in such a situation, but ass we’ve seen, you definitely cant make them under the gun.
Right, it would be done before the US invades, to prevent them from invading. Nuclear weapons are deterrence, you don’t want to actually use them.
Right, it would be done before the US invades, to prevent them from invading. Nuclear weapons are deterrence, you don’t want to actually use them.
I fear my point is being missed.
My point was in response mainly to this last sentence:
I do think a nuclear deterrent would be ideal, but that’s a couple of steps of escalation further down the line I think.
My point is that it cant be further down, because if you are down that far, its too late. We’ve seen this was most countries that became under the gun when they would benefit dearly from having nuclear weapons of their own.
Notably, if Ukraine did so before they would have been fine, but during, they have no chance.
Iran similarly has a difficult time.
Its not about the nation, its about the fact that if you are at a point where you feel the heat is on, its too late to build nukes. Now is the time to build them.
What’s sad, is that Ukraine did have nukes. Then this happened in '94: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum Guess who is now a bully.
It should be noted that they were never actually their nukes (not their codes or delivery systems), but that this would have been a good time for them to make their own nukes.
A lot of the nuance is also one of threat assessment, and risk tolerance.
We can prepare for a situation where we’re attacked by the US, but given all probabilities is that worth it compared to preparing for a situation where we get attacked by China or Russia, or is that even worth considering vs preparing for a situation where we can ramp up industrial military production as fast as possible and become a resource rich manufacturing powerhouse.
We can prepare for a situation where we’re attacked by the US, but given all probabilities is that worth it compared to preparing for a situation where we get attacked by China or Russia
Very much so. Russia is not that big a threat as they are an easy sell to alliances. China and the US would steamroll us regardless, hence, given that we have no one resembling near peers, ultimate strategic deterrents are literally the only things that can defend us should the worst come.
vs preparing for a situation where we can ramp up industrial military production as fast as possible and become a resource rich manufacturing powerhouse?
This is not happening when we don’t even have our own jets and every country with fancy jets (etc) wants to build them in house.
There’s no way of knowing which path the world will go down, and preparing for everything simply isn’t possible, so every decision is going to be a matter of what risks to take for what potential benefits.
A strategic deterrent program is the least expensive and most all encompassing. We generally stay out of the business of other countries so the bipolar fascist next door is the biggest threat to physical safety/sovereignty. We’re also uniquely well equipped to start one. We need to have a Can du attitude.
We can prepare for a situation where we’re attacked by the US, but given all probabilities is that worth it compared to preparing for a situation where we get attacked by China or Russia, or is that even worth considering vs preparing for a situation where we can ramp up industrial military production as fast as possible and become a resource rich manufacturing powerhouse?
Get real. If US, China or Russia attacks us, there is nothing we can do with 100X the military spending.
The Gripen is certainly not as advanced as F-35 but its operating costs per flight hour are only 1/5th of the F-35 which is definitely a big consideration when you don’t have a US-sized defense budget.
What role does the jet have to fulfill? Fight off enemy planes in an invasion? If it’s the US that invades you wouldn’t want US tech, but it doesn’t really matter, the US would win. Russia invading? At this point they’re down to kites and helium balloons, right?
If it’s to fulfill a role within NATO, a Gripen is probably just as good as an F-35, because any enemy of NATO’s will almost certainly be many generations behind. China wouldn’t be, but neither Canada directly nor NATO is likely to get into a direct fighting war with China. Only maybe if Canada wanted to help defend Taiwan against Chinese aggression could that possibly happen. But, because Taiwan’s a small island, Canada’s Navy would probably be the main force involved.
In a few decades, things might already have changed. Missiles and drones might have made fighter jets essentially obsolete. So, it doesn’t make too much sense to buy something that’s massively expensive just because it’s the most up-to-date thing right now.
Likely there will be no such thing as a 6th gen fighter jet. The pilot will be replaced by AI, so the next gen will have completely different requirements.
I don’t think the “pilot will be replaced by AI”. I think there will just be drones that look nothing like fighter jets. Some might have a certain amount of autonomy, which is vaguely similar to “AI”. Others will be controlled remotely. Still others will probably be a mix, like a swarm that’s human-controlled but where the individual drones in the swarm are somewhat autonomous.
There’s no way remote-controlled drones are going to be top-shelf items. Even now, comm interference pretty much prohibits the use of remote-controlled drones in any scenario which involves actual armies rather than shepherds with AKs. And beyond that, in a real war satellite constellations will go down real fast.
I don’t think we know what the next war is going to be like. Yes, radio interference is a major challenge with the current generation, but there are already partial work-arounds like fiber.
Yeah, it’s unlikely that the next generation will be 100% remote controlled with no local autonomy because that requires a high bandwidth. But systems with a moderate amount of autonomy might be fine.
Fighter jets running on fiber?
I’ve been commenting on a bunch of threads the best way to deal with a bully is to tell them to fuck off and go play with everyone else in the playground. Glad we’re taking the first few steps in the right direction.
That’s cute and all but annexing Canada is literally in their agenda.
the best way to deal with a bully is to tell them to fuck off
Works best when the bully isn’t stupid rich and surrounded by psychopath security guards.
A big reason why oil-rich oligarchies buy American military hardware is to avoid getting the heavy end of the “regime change” stick bounced off their heads.
