For this reason, elected authoritarians who wish to consolidate control typically win not by flashy displays of might, but by convincing a critical mass of people that they’re just a normal politician — no threat to democracy at all.
That means the survival of democracy depends, to an extent not fully appreciated, on perceptions and narratives. In three recent countries where a democracy survived an incumbent government bent on destroying it — Brazil, South Korea, and Poland — the belief among elites, the public, and the opposition that democracy was at stake played a critical role in motivating pushback.
TL;DR: “Making democratic threats legible,” i.e. spreading the word about how every action Trump takes is a threat to our democracy. It has been proven in several other countries run by authoritarian governments to be effective at stomping out fascism before it can take hold.
Saved you a click.
So the populace has to be intelligent enough to grasp that their democracy is being threatened?
Yup. We’re fucked.
I really appreciate the TLDR, as I like to know the point before I start reading the support of it. However “legible” is a horrible word for this as precise as it might be.
Once a threat becomes legible — primarily, by an elected authoritarian beginning to act in authoritarian ways once in office — people start prioritizing democracy in a way they didn’t beforehand.
Which I would rephrase as saying: 'When politicians act like dictators, document it, yell it out, and call them out."**
And even that’s to long and not direct enough.
Seems like they stopped shy of the good stuff:
- Why is it so hard to convince your fellows (I.e., Trump supporters)?
- Why is propaganda so effective and how is it currently being employed?
- What tactics can be used that aren’t already?
Worse, in the examples they give, the legislatures and/or judiciaries stood against the dictators.
Here, we have decades of propaganda fueled by the oligarchs that has removed the world view of a third of our population from reality, and it’s not just Trump - the Republican party is in on the deal, from Congress to SCOTUS.
It’s not the same battle. It’s not the same order of magnitude. It’s at least two orders of magnitude harder.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t fight; rather, we should fight all the harder.
But that’s why I’m not certain partition / civil war type solutions are off the table.
But that’s been met with “you have Trump derangement syndrome” or “that will never happen, you’re exaggerating” or 1000 variations for over a decade now.
If the horse won’t drink, you just keep leading it to water until it eventually gets thirsty.
The horse will eventually drink as it must to survive.
You’re better off helping those that want to be helped
The metaphor meant that, as Trump continues to injure his own supporters, reminding them that he is behaving as a dictator may eventually stop them from resolving cognitive dissonance by being defensive and instead by blaming the culprit. Basically, every time you lead the horse to water is a new opportunity to drink, increasing in urgency over time.
But by all means, help those who want to be helped first.
It’s also impossible, as this requires people to read and understand, something most Americans aren’t very good at. Most Americans believe what their news organizations tell them and since they’ve had a free pass to lie for decades now, lying is all they do.
Step 1
Step 2 DONE
I really don’t get how people cannot get having paramilitary randomly grabbing, shooting, killing folks. Heck break car windows. cars are sacrosanct in this country. I mean seriously folks. This is not how a normal free society behaves. It drives me nuts how no one seems to get the bill of rights. We learned this in school. The declaration of independence and the greivences which are mirrored in the bill of rights to prevent the things the founding fathers fought to stop.
It drives me nuts how no one seems to get the bill of rights. We learned this in school.
Decades of propaganda have convinced people that the Bill of Rights doesn’t apply to ‘criminals’ and ‘illegals’.
yeah you get the bs like they meant citizens when they wrote this and its like. Wrong! They specifically used terms throughout the constitution and you can tell it is deliberate and we know from their writings they realized how many rights were effectively nullified if it does not apply to all.
Although at the same time, enshrined in there is the idea that some are worth about 60% as much as others.
Not to defend the racist fascists, mind.
Yes along with a mechanism for change to get rid of things like that.
In itself, the answer is really simple, at least for the remaining democracies, and a solution would be entirely possible: people would have to switch to decentralized media apps, such as those provided by the Fediverse, and stop attributing so much credibility to legacy media. This would significantly reduce the scope for concerted disinformation, which is the main reason for any autocratic form of government being possible, which is of course never in the interests of citizens.
How this can be achieved is the question, and the answer can of course only be education, because the majority of people are obviously unaware of how they are being duped.
switch to decentralized media apps, such as those provided by the Fediverse, and stop attributing so much credibility to legacy media.
Even here, most posts are just linking to an article in legacy media.
This would significantly reduce the scope for concerted disinformation
You don’t think if Lemmy became large enough to be a target that it wouldn’t be targeted with overwhelming bots and paid people posting propaganda?
I’d like to borrow your rose-coloured glasses, please. It’d be nice to have such a rosy worldview for a moment.
In itself, the answer is really simple, at least for the remaining democracies, and a solution would be entirely possible: people would have to switch to decentralized media apps, such as those provided by the Fediverse, and stop attributing so much credibility to legacy media. This would significantly reduce the scope for concerted disinformation, which is the main reason for any autocratic form of government being possible, which is of course never in the interests of citizens.
Sorry, but I don’t think this will do it. We got into this situation because social media in general allows for fine-tuning manipulation and propaganda to specific audiences, not because they’re centralized. Facebook and Cambridge Analytica were probably a but-for cause (and there are many) of Trump’s first win. But it wasn’t because Facebook was actively trying to help Trump, as much as it was because social media both democratized and bastardized journalism.
If everyone switched to Lemmy, Russia and others would now just focus (as I think they already have here in election years, but to a larger extent) their resources on Lemmy disinformation campaigns instead of X and Facebook. If the userbase splintered to 100 different apps instead of any centralized one, likewise targeted misinformation would follow. And viral misinformation would cross platforms, just like it already does.
Yes, education is the long-term answer.
Yes, that’s true. The Fediverse is also susceptible to manipulation. That’s why I’m not a fan of broad rules such as “no politics” in the largest communities, as their breadth would make it easy to buy off a few moderators, which shouldn’t be a problem at all if you have even a little capital.
Nevertheless, traditional journalism is dead because its business model is simply no longer financially viable today. Investigative journalism is very expensive and, with the loss of advertising revenue (wnet to search engines and mainstream social media apps), it is simply an impossible business model today. In fact, most of the traditional media today is run at a loss by billionaires like Bezos (Washington Post, among others).
I’m not saying that the Fediverse is a promise of salvation. I’m just saying that it’s the only option left.
The internet as such was originally designed to be decentralized, but it was taken over by big capital, for which we are now being presented with the bill in all the remaining democracies of the world.
In my opinion, the only response can be to do everything possible to return to decentralization, in order to at least put obstacles in the way of the powerful of this world.
404 media is turning a profit, which demonstrates this is not necessarily true
Yes, that’s true. The Fediverse is also susceptible to manipulation.
To a somewhat lesser degree, though, since there isn’t a pervasive and inescapable algorithm that aggressively pushes controversial engagement-bait posts on people.
(And also because public mod logs can make it more apparent when moderator capture is used to suppress and control narratives.)
I understand the sentiment and agree with the diagnosis. I just worry that the proposed cure won’t address the illness. Decentralization is a band-aid at best.
I think the traditional journalism business model is just a proxy for “truth” in the sense that fact-checking and reliability is really what’s at stake versus social media “news.” And the substituted point is still valid - truth as a business model is no longer financially viable - but the answer in that case I feel should be to make truth financially viable. One way to do that is to depress demand for misinformation (laws prohibiting misinformation and enforcement, creating boycott campaigns against platforms that algorithmically incentivize misinformation like Facebook and X). The other is to reward truth (educate the populace to support it, sure, but also keep funding as a social good journalism like NPR, PBS).
It’s not great, but I don’t feel just pushing into decentralized media will do anything except create even more competing “truths” and hasten information exhaustion and withdrawal from public spaces.
How this can be achieved is the question
Just fucking vote. Engage in all local, state, and federal elections. Be invested in the results. Everyone, all the time, vote on everything. Believe in democracy.
the problem the guy above is trying to call out is that traditional social media (read: algorithms dictated by the ruling class) spread misinformation and control the narrative in ways we never thought possible. voting works, yes, but without addressing the root cause—misinformation—we will end up right back where we are.
That goes without saying, but the choice of information media that people use influences their decision. As long as these information media are controlled by billionaires, which is absolutely the case for the majority of voters, not only in the US, the outcome of the elections is a foregone conclusion.
One should not assume that even obvious misinformation has no effect if it is spread widely enough. It is, of course, commendable to believe in people, but this hope is clearly dashed by the US.
Do not believe for a moment that something like this cannot happen in your home country.
Do you think fascism happens when a critical number of people have been tricked into doing fascism? Fascism is not the result of some nebulous, nationwide hoodwink, but a response to measurable deterioration of wages, education, infrastructure, wages, healthcare, etc…
If you truly believe this, your only recourse is fact checking, appeals to logic, and information campaigns. How have those worked over the past decade?
It is pure liberalism to think that we just need to sit our best politicians and philosophers down, have them draft up an absolutely banger explanation of why fascism is bad, and then every fascist American yokel will see the error in their ways and renounce fascism. Liberalism is the idea that people are fascist simply becsuse they haven’t been presented with the “right” ideas yet.
Yep. You need to present them a better alternative that will fix the real (or imaginary) problems in their lives, most of which are truly caused by rampant capitalism.
So you need specific, concrete strategies about how you’re going to get them better wages, better education, better infrastructure, better healthcare, etc.
Because if you don’t offer this, the fascists will. The fascists say all the problems are due to Outgroup and the solution is to give unlimited power to Ingroup so they can get rid of Outgroup and then all the problems will be solved.
That is, obviously, very stupid. But so are a lot of voters. And it that’s the only solution to their problems that they’re hearing, that’s what they’re going to gravitate toward. To win them over, you need to acknowledge their problems, paint a convincing picture that capitalist oligarchs are the source of those problems, and present clear and concrete steps toward solving those problems. You are NOT going to win them over by telling them that their problems aren’t real, or that their problems aren’t as bad as other people’s problems.
but by convincing a critical mass of people that they’re just a normal politician — no threat to democracy at all.
A.K.A: we’re pretty much fucked. We have Faux News, Newsmax, OANN, and an endless supply of YouTuber/podcast jackasses to keep The Base believing the Turd Reichs version of reality.
:(
Liberal slop that posits we must return the wholesome big chungus good old days of healthy American democracy (as if the US wasn’t born out of wholesale genocide of Native Americans and the enslavement of an entire continent). You can tell this article was written by someone who just wants to go back to esting brunch while the US plunders the planet. Does the article even mention workers? If it does, it makes far more effort to put its stock in “institutions”, “courts”, and “elites”.
American fascism is not an abberation, but the logical conclusion. This article comes from the perspective that we have to save the current system as opposed to even considering a new one.
Fascism Is Possible Not in Spite of Liberal Capitalism, but Because of It
Clintonite cosmopolitan liberalism claims that these oppressions are atavisms of the past, even though they are renewed every day. It promises to unite the world Benetton-like in a multicultural global market, where everyone is equally free to exploit and be exploited. Liberalism will occasionally apologize for its racism, sexism and colonial massacres, and may make affirmative action reforms to stabilize its rule and rationalize production, or in the case of the US government’s eventual concessions to the civil rights movement, to compete ideologically with the Soviet Union. But there is one place where it can never acknowledge illegitimate hierarchy: the workplace. And it is precisely here that the contradictions that propel the world toward fascism are rooted.
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So basically stupid people cause democracies to fail and the solution is basically to kill stupid people???
To allways prioritize funding of education.
Ha that’s never going to happen. In think my option is more realistic. You can’t educate stupid. Especially willfully stupid.
You can’t educate stupid.
Well, you can, actually. You’ve just got to start early.
First of all, relevant username. Second of all… to quote a litle youtube vid I love[1], “You are not wrong. But also, you are very wrong.”
Education is one of the critical tools to fix this, although that will take 2-3 gererations of hard work and full control of the process, so probably even longer.
Education, however, is not the short-term tool, it is one of the long-term tools. But it is one of the tools. More of a preventative of it taking root again after we root it out.
see 45 seconds in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iQRlUWPj4A ↩︎
Education only works for the willing. Also, that’s why republicans are so hell bent on removing public education.
