Don’t really wanna play the “no, YOU don’t understand” game here, but I dunno, from what I’m seeing in both society and nature…the way the world works is that there is no objective good and evil in it. Those are labels humans made up to feel better about some actions we see around us that we don’t like or find abhorant. Not saying some of the things we and animals have done onto others isn’t straight up horrible, some of it ABSOLUTELY is (as someone who has deep roots down South of the USA, yeah, I’ve seen some of the horrible things the cartels have inflicted on others for various reasons), but I’m also not going to sit here and pretend it’s something only humanity does or that they invented to be evil. Animals can kill and torture for fun and sport too, that’s been documented several times over. Doesn’t make em evil tho. The whole “but we more often choose to be cruel anyway” is a fairly narrow mind generalization that dismisses the fact that just as much people choose to do the exact opposite of what you claim, but don’t get a spotlight on them because they’re not stirring things up, and so nobody actually cares about what they do.
That the Trump Supporters “regret it now” kinda proves my point too, actually. If the people rioting really were these evil monsters like you want to claim they are, they’d have zero regret or remorse about their actions and would be proud of what they did. And yeah, i know there’s always going to be that one handful of people that ARE proud of their stupidity, there always is and always will be these types of people for as long as people (and animals, because yeah, some animals display oddities that differ from known behaviors and patterns of their kin) are a thing. And it’ll keep going long after we’re gone and something else takes our place. But just because some of us act a certain way doesn’t mean the entire species is deserving to be damned or automatically makes us a lost cause. That’s actually a pretty narrow minded opinion to have, actually. And again, that’s deliberately ignoring the Trump supports you yourself brought up (the ‘truly kind or intelligent person [that] would have said, “Screw that. There’s a line I’m not willing to cross, ethically or morally.”’ that you mentioned in your response), the ones who saw all that chaos and did just that: saying “this is both wrong and disgusting, and I’m not taking part in this”. Because those people do exist. I know they do, because my brother in-law is one, so is one of my former coworkers, Hardcore Republican (almost cultish IMO, but that’s neither here nor there), but was thoroughly disgusted at what she saw that day–and they can hardly be the only ones. Since you mentioned them, you yourself know they exist too. But well, nuance is nuance, i suppose. It’s much easier to try and fit everything into a small little category and leave it at that vs actually acknowledging “life is simple, humans are complicated. Sometimes stupidly so”.
Well I have to concede that I was very narrow and harsh in my statement that all people are monsters, bar none. I agree with the idea that good and evil are not objective and are mostly subjective. We use our labels to say, “I’m with the GOOD group, the salvageable and honorable ones” and to segregate ourselves from others we deem unworthy. We’re very tribal that way.
Sadly many of the trump supporters DO have zero regret and inability or unwillingness to see why what they did was so monumentally horrific. Animals do sometimes kill for “fun,” if you can see it as that - I’ve seen footage of chimps torturing and killing their own kind just to pass the time. Somehow it still makes me recoil and see such acts as horrific.
And like you I have Republican acquaintances who find what happened on Jan 6th utterly repugnant, so yes I do agree such people exist. I have mostly distanced myself from these people, because I find I’m afraid to even be around republican-affiliated people anymore.
I’m just putting my ideas out there - not trying to argue for against humanity’s capacity for goodness. At the end of Camelot King Arthur says, “some of the drops do sparkle.” Not many, but some. We can only hope the ones that sparkle are powerful enough to outshine the waves of those who would drown us all in violence, crime, and stupidity.
We can only hope the ones that sparkle are powerful enough to outshine the waves of those who would drown us all in violence, crime, and stupidity.
Indeed. “Wait, and hope” as the Count of Monte Cristo says (at least I think. Haven’t dusted off that book in a while), but also, if possible, become one of the few that sparkle among the masses.
Appreciate that we ended this discussion amiciably in the end!
I usually am just posting my thoughts and am surprised when people get angry over them. I’m fine with someone disagreeing if they can be reasonable and thoughtful as you definitely were. I appreciate the amicability also!!!
Don’t really wanna play the “no, YOU don’t understand” game here, but I dunno, from what I’m seeing in both society and nature…the way the world works is that there is no objective good and evil in it. Those are labels humans made up to feel better about some actions we see around us that we don’t like or find abhorant. Not saying some of the things we and animals have done onto others isn’t straight up horrible, some of it ABSOLUTELY is (as someone who has deep roots down South of the USA, yeah, I’ve seen some of the horrible things the cartels have inflicted on others for various reasons), but I’m also not going to sit here and pretend it’s something only humanity does or that they invented to be evil. Animals can kill and torture for fun and sport too, that’s been documented several times over. Doesn’t make em evil tho. The whole “but we more often choose to be cruel anyway” is a fairly narrow mind generalization that dismisses the fact that just as much people choose to do the exact opposite of what you claim, but don’t get a spotlight on them because they’re not stirring things up, and so nobody actually cares about what they do.
That the Trump Supporters “regret it now” kinda proves my point too, actually. If the people rioting really were these evil monsters like you want to claim they are, they’d have zero regret or remorse about their actions and would be proud of what they did. And yeah, i know there’s always going to be that one handful of people that ARE proud of their stupidity, there always is and always will be these types of people for as long as people (and animals, because yeah, some animals display oddities that differ from known behaviors and patterns of their kin) are a thing. And it’ll keep going long after we’re gone and something else takes our place. But just because some of us act a certain way doesn’t mean the entire species is deserving to be damned or automatically makes us a lost cause. That’s actually a pretty narrow minded opinion to have, actually. And again, that’s deliberately ignoring the Trump supports you yourself brought up (the ‘truly kind or intelligent person [that] would have said, “Screw that. There’s a line I’m not willing to cross, ethically or morally.”’ that you mentioned in your response), the ones who saw all that chaos and did just that: saying “this is both wrong and disgusting, and I’m not taking part in this”. Because those people do exist. I know they do, because my brother in-law is one, so is one of my former coworkers, Hardcore Republican (almost cultish IMO, but that’s neither here nor there), but was thoroughly disgusted at what she saw that day–and they can hardly be the only ones. Since you mentioned them, you yourself know they exist too. But well, nuance is nuance, i suppose. It’s much easier to try and fit everything into a small little category and leave it at that vs actually acknowledging “life is simple, humans are complicated. Sometimes stupidly so”.
Well I have to concede that I was very narrow and harsh in my statement that all people are monsters, bar none. I agree with the idea that good and evil are not objective and are mostly subjective. We use our labels to say, “I’m with the GOOD group, the salvageable and honorable ones” and to segregate ourselves from others we deem unworthy. We’re very tribal that way.
Sadly many of the trump supporters DO have zero regret and inability or unwillingness to see why what they did was so monumentally horrific. Animals do sometimes kill for “fun,” if you can see it as that - I’ve seen footage of chimps torturing and killing their own kind just to pass the time. Somehow it still makes me recoil and see such acts as horrific.
And like you I have Republican acquaintances who find what happened on Jan 6th utterly repugnant, so yes I do agree such people exist. I have mostly distanced myself from these people, because I find I’m afraid to even be around republican-affiliated people anymore.
I’m just putting my ideas out there - not trying to argue for against humanity’s capacity for goodness. At the end of Camelot King Arthur says, “some of the drops do sparkle.” Not many, but some. We can only hope the ones that sparkle are powerful enough to outshine the waves of those who would drown us all in violence, crime, and stupidity.
I appreciate your thoughts and feedback.
Indeed. “Wait, and hope” as the Count of Monte Cristo says (at least I think. Haven’t dusted off that book in a while), but also, if possible, become one of the few that sparkle among the masses.
Appreciate that we ended this discussion amiciably in the end!
I usually am just posting my thoughts and am surprised when people get angry over them. I’m fine with someone disagreeing if they can be reasonable and thoughtful as you definitely were. I appreciate the amicability also!!!