As of right now, you can follow either Lemmy accounts directly or follow Lemmy communities from Mastodon relatively easily if you know what you are searching for. This is really cool because you can read (and participate to !) discussions without having tu use a Lemmy-specific app or account. The wonders of the fediverse !
But the interaction through mastodon has a few issues, notably:
- Communities repost comments too, making the community feed unreadable
- Media in Lemmy posts are links, which make them quite cumbersome to watch (which is also the case in Lemmy itself ? I’m curious as to why) (minor problem)
- To my knowledge, you can’t post to a Lemmy community from Mastodon, but that’s to be expected I guess. (minor problem)
The discussions on Lemmy often are more interesting than over on mastodon but I prefer mastodon’s format so I am way more active over there. It would be way more pleasant to have everything in the same feed but because of 1. this isn’t possible at the moment.
So the question is: does anybody know if Lemmy can or will fix any of these issues, especially n°1 ? Or is this something to be fixed on Mastodon’s side ?
sry for English 🙃
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OP, I’m pretty much the opposite. I like the way Lemmy feels and operates vs. Mastadon (I’m on both though) and so generally spend more time here. I’d like the ability to see what’s going on over there, from over here.
I’ve always been a forums guy.
Am I weird for thinking comparing Lemmy and Mastodon is odd? To me it’s almost like saying “I prefer apples over gravity” - they’re two completely different things in my opinion.
Yeah, I think they have very different use cases. For Lemmy, I’ve mostly figured out what that is and it feels familiar to me. For Mastadon, I’m still trying to figure it out.
I was never on any of the microblog platforms.
Microblogging is pretty much just box into which you can shout whatever you want, and sometimes people interact with what you said.
Makes me think of doing a monologue or something. Lol
I’ve always been a forums guy.
Hear hear! I’d put “blogosphere” there too. And in a way, most of the world is too, right? In that Twitter was never bigger than the other big platforms, but had instead gotten in with politicians and journalists and so had some more cache around it.
Regarding 3: you can. On Mastodon, simply meantion the lemmy Community in your Post and it will be posted to that community
I already have seen some of those and sure it works…sometimes.
If it doesnt work it’s a federation issue
Also I would like to be able to follow a Mastodon user from Lemmy
The lead devs have acknowledged that it would be good (they did an AMA not long ago). But they feel it’d be a lot of work and so not a priority right now.
Personally, I think lemmy would have a lot to provide in reimagining a user’s personal blogging feed as something more like a personal community they manage for themselves.
…I really like the sound of that idea.
Me too! A lemmy user could even have multiple personal blogs if they wanted, each separately follow-able, with cross posting when wanted. Then you could follow either their posts to general communities, and/or any of their personal blogs.
Once multi communities come, lemmy then becomes an interesting blogging platform that should also interop with mastodon well.
This is out of scope for Lemmy, there are already dozens of Fediverse projects which provide this functionality so it makes no sense to reimplement it in Lemmy as well. And if you want both follow both communities and users in the same platform, thats exactly what Kbin and Mbin provide.
Out of scope, yes. But it sure would be nice from a more abstract perspective. Right now content flows in one direction. Lemmy->Mastadon, but not vice versa.
This could be a good thing, or a bad thing, depending on whether you are a content creator or content consumer. If you’re creating content, a post to Lemmy will have a wider reach (huzzah!). But if you’re a lazy lurker and want to check fewer streams, then you sign up to Mastadon and get both (huzzah!).
Anecdote from history, for comparison.
Back in the late 80s, early 90s, when OS/2 and Windows were competing for marketshare, this was a choice that IBM made – to make a Windows compatibility layer on OS/2. Technically, it was a masterpiece, and increased the number of programs available to OS/2 users. Why choose Windows when you can choose OS/2 and you can select from the best apps from both ecosystems! Except it backfired within a few years – developers stopped developing for OS/2 entirely, instead targeting the Windows API because they could reach both platforms with it.
I suspect that Mastadon being able to draw content from Lemmy, and not vice versa, is a similar thing here. But I’m unsure if it will help or harm Lemmy.
Join us on kbin. This is precisely the feature kbin provides.
But no apps on kbin :(
But U dont have rss feeds I guess
As far as I can tell, it’s not lemmy’s problem, it’s mastodon’s.
Lemmy can’t control how mastodon presents the information that lemmy shares.
And mastodon does a bad job of formatting lemmy content because mastodon is actually a fairly minimalist (I’d say brutalist) platform. No text formatting. No threads (well now they have minimal threading). Only one feed type (equivalent to “new” on lemmy). And communities and groups aren’t processed as groups, but just like users that boost/re-tweet everything in them, which is not what groups actually are at all.
This is the fundamental problem with the promise of the fediverse … platform inter operation is not guaranteed at all as there’s no clear path to reaching common ground on how to format every other platform’s content. The protocol has nothing (or very little) to say about that. Then, once you have a bunch of platforms, you’ve got a lot of work to do, as each platform needs to workout how to render every other platform’s formatting. For N platforms, that’s basically N2 formatting projects.
In reality, federation is mostly an inter-platform system. For the moment at least. It makes sense that at some point one’s “window” onto the fediverse is capable of understanding any format you want and will render everything as it was intended. Instead, at the moment, the fediverse is running like it’s still 2010 and the cloud is still new and cool and having users on servers is the only way to do things so that we’re all still stuck on servers/instances and bound to their admins and applications. IMO, it’s hardly living up to the promise of the internet, and hardly doing to social media what the internet did to computing.
With the internet, I opened my browser and visited any webpage I wanted to see it as it was intended by its author no matter who wrote it.
With the fediverse, I visit one webpage and see any post I want, so long as it doesn’t come from a defederated server (which can be a problem sometimes), but only in the one format that my one webpage/instance has decided on, no matter how it’s supposed to look and indeed does look if I were to view it on another webpage/instance. When the browser is over 30 years old and PCs around 50 … this feels unimaginative to me.
It seriously doesn’t do Markdown formatting?! That’s a no for me, Dawg
That’s like 2/1 the fun for me
I think it’s the only platform that doesn’t do any kind of formatting.
Mastodon renders most Markdown content just fine, and federation is usually done through HTML already. Their flavour of Markdown is limited, but what would you expect from a platform designed with character limits in mind?
Users and groups are interpretations of the standard, but there’s nothing specifying how you should treat either in the specs. All you have is the semantic meaning, which you may or may not care about.
The protocol is ensuring federation just fine, the problems occur at the user interface level. Mastodon users and Lemmy users can interact with the same threads (though Lemmy decided not to provide ActivityPub lists for individual users so you can’t follow people, and doesn’t have a “timeline” to post unrelated stuff to).
When I first opened the internet, I was told to download Firefox for the best experience. I also needed Java and Flash or my games and websites wouldn’t work. Some websites only worked in IE because of ActiveX. These days the internet has been standardised to some extent, but just four or five years ago a lot of developers put a lot of effort into supporting Internet Explorer and its quirks. This is a bit like Lemmy users only using the subset of Markdown that Mastodon supports, and manually quoting people with links to ensure tagged users get informed correctly.
And God, dear Lord, holy fuck, don’t get me started on email. You think email supports HTML, and officially it does, but no two email clients/webmail clients render teo HTML documents the same way.
Speaking of email, that’s actually a great example. Email is used for all manner of information exchange, but you’ll have a hard time reading the email output of industrial software on Gmail, they’re basically using attachments to send binary data. Don’t even think about manually composing such messages because some critical piece of software will explode in your face. Just because you’re using the same protocol, doesn’t mean you can use every app for every purpose.
Even on the Fediverse, I think Lemmy and Mastodon are two of the more limited services out there. Lemmy doesn’t implement a timeline, which most of the Fediverse seems to be built around, while Mastodon only supports the features it was designed for. When you look at alternative server solutions, compatibility starts broadening real quick. If you want to interact with both, choose neither; mbin and whatever MissKey fork is popular these days will probably suit you much better.
Some counterpoints …
- Regarding groups in Masto, the problem is more than the lack of an interface level “spec” in the protocol … mastodon doesn’t support groups … you can’t create or post to them natively within mastodon … they’ve just created the most basic interface to external groups. So before we get to whether mastodon’s interpretation of how to interface with groups is good … we need mastodon to actually implement an interface. Which is on their roadmap.
- I’m not sure I see your point about “timelines”. Communities are just flexible use-empowered timelines, while the mastodon timelines, according to every poll I’ve seen on them, are mostly not used and not appreciated while of course being inflexible.
- I feel like you’re underselling how standardised the web is, especially relative to the amount of complexity a page can have compared to what we’ve got on mastodon, which is basically plain text. How long ago had the web standardised enough for the basic markdown rendering that most (ie non-mastodon) platforms provide?
- Comparing the fediverse to email feels like your supporting my arguments. That’s an old craggly system that we’ve had plenty of time to learn from.
Otherwise, yes mastodon does render markdown now. It’s relatively new and it’s to forget about it as you can’t write with the same markdown (which is a rather telling choice I think about mastodon’s minimalist ethos). But as you say, it’s rather limited (I’ve never tested its limtations myself) … and that’s just a markdown spec. Anything remotely fancy like MFM coming from a *key platform/fork just doesn’t work.
And yea, I’m with you on lemmy/masto being limited. Thing is, I’d bet that this isn’t a coincidence. I feel like you could argue that ActivityPub is on the vague and ambitious side of things and leaves a lot to the platform/software devs. And so to make something work with that the first generation of platforms had to be rather focused in order to make a working and usable platform. A bit of a “worse is better” scenario. kbin/mbin definitely show promise in broadening the horizons of what the fediverse, as a UI/UX can be. I’m not sure why you advocate joining a misskey fork as they don’t have any federated groups interface (they’re basically very fancy microblogging platforms).
Where I think this should head is more modularity, where the AcitivityPub server you use is far more generic, and basically handles for you anything the protocol can handle, while your interface into the “data stream” is much more flexible/modular, being provided by composable apps that allow you to view and write posts/content in any format if you want. For example, in this kind of system, lemmy wouldn’t be a monolithic platform. Instead it’d be an app for writing and viewing ActivityPub content in the “lemmy” format, that you can load into your generic browser interface/environment, and use whenever you’re viewing content others have written using the same app.
From the little I understand, Bonfire (now in beta) has similar-ish ideas.
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Communities repost comments because otherwise comments wouldn’t reach other servers. This is a huge problem with Mastodon, where only the user’s home server has all upvotes and responses. Join a smaller server and you don’t see any of them. This is very annoying for well-known social media people, because every now and then they make a mistake and hundreds of people will think they’re the first to correct them on it, because they don’t see the replies that the hundreds of other servers have sent. Some servers run tools like Fedifetcher to work around this problem, but that increases the already significant load of running Mastodon and rarely completely fixes the problem.
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This is because Mastodon does not implement the content type Lemmy uses to submit posts. Various Mastodon forks do support it, though. Mastodon defaults to “show subject and a link to the original post” for content types it doesn’t understand (“location”, “event”) and auto embedding takes care of showing the picture, so it looks like there’s partial support but this is really “hands up in the air, say ‘fuck it’, just do anything” behaviour. In practice, supporting Lemmy’s content type (which is a standard type, by the way) wouldn’t even take that much work, the Mastodon devs just don’t seem interested in showing anything but mictoblogging content which the UI was designed for.
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You can, if you tag the community. There are some protocol level differences between Lemmy and Mastodon, both based on well thought out considerations based on reading the ActivityPub+ActivityStreams protocols, but as long as you can get the community in the right ActivityPub reference fields, your post will show up.
In various Mastodon apps, you can hide retoots and boosts per account to cut down on the Lemmy spam. Other apps (Fedilab for instance) allow for threaded views, mirroring the Lemmy experience more closely.
Your first point is a protocol level problem that neither Mastodon nor Lemmy can “just” solve. It’s possible for Mastodon apps/frontends to hide this problem, though. Mastodon should also implement something similar in my opinion, because currently the lack of response propagation is causing real issues.
Your second point needs to be implemented by Mastodon. Lemmy does nothing wrong here.
Your third problem doesn’t seem to be a problem at all, at least as far as I know. It’s possible some apps don’t set the right fields causing interoperability problems, but as far as I know you can just submit posts from Mastodon.
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You could use kbin which can serve and display both varieties just fine.
I wanted to point out kbin.social has been having some stability issues, so I’ve been using the mbin fork at kbin.run and it’s been working amazingly.
They’ve been mostly resolved in my experience. Kbin.social has been working great.
Yup, kbin for the win.
Just wish it had a mobile app…
@interstellar is being developed for Android, and Lunar is working on Kbin support for iOS. Still a good ways to go tmk, but we’re getting there!
RIP Artemis
Makes me so sad
This is exactly why I op’d for Kbin over just Lemmy.
Lemmy + Mastodon support.
This is the way.
Mastodons side. They are aware and just don’t care.
Images in Lemmy posts should be rendered correctly by Mastodon with this pr which federates the link content-type.
I’m a little new to it all, but this bothered me as well. As far as I can tell, the underlying issue is that ActivityPub isn’t strict enough about how these things should be implemented, so everyone implements them in similar but slightly incompatible ways.
I think either Lemmy or Mastodon “could” fix it on their ends if they wanted to, but it’s not super easy and so far they’re deciding not to. I’m actually right in the middle of messing around with kbin right now, which aims to support the best of both worlds (can talk to Lemmy and interoperate well with Lemmy communities but can also follow / message / hear from Mastodon users within a UI that makes sense for Mastodon). It doesn’t seem like it’s as mature yet as either Mastodon or Lemmy though, but I’m pretty likely to switch to it for exactly this reason, that I’d like to have one account that can talk to both.
I’m also likely to switch to kbin at some point. Personally I take a fairly long-term view of this project, so I’m waiting to see which projects keep going, which fail, and which new ones haven’t even popped up yet. I’m aware that devs can pivot and change their minds about things.
I picked lemmy initially more or less at random, and I do like it here, but I’m ultimately going to move to the most functional product. That broader idea of the Fediverse is why I’m here.
Agree I really was intrigued after being comfortable with reddit, but bailing because all my Reddit interactions was from phone, so cut story short tried Mastodon.social>Kbin.social>Misskey.io
Also funkwhale and hubzilla out of curiosity.
So I really interested in tech but there is a lot of wait between some of them agree on some points.My aim for now to make Kbin community for a game that can directly refer to works of artists directly and for users of Microblogs to see topics and join in on discussions.
From personal experience Mastodon seems fine with threadiverse while Misskey can see posts if forced (and only kbin threads, link ones won’t work at least) but commenting gives error. Also Misskey quotes shows as comments for a post/message etc, but not federate to kbin so as loop around don’t work as well.
So having followed many artists on Misskey and having some people following me there kinda wish I could interact with magazine(community) directly, but too early for that I guess.
Also Misskey making webp conversion for images is good for storage(you get personal 2 gb and more with time or donations) but Kbin not federate them properly… So that also an headache…
Waiting when Kbin release api so I can remind about this problem again.
I think this lack of strictness is exactly what makes ActivityPub so good. Imagine if ActivityPub was designed around Mastodon, Lemmy and Mastodon would never be able to interact!
The limitations aren’t protocol issues per se; boosting every comment and upvote is a workaround Lemmy uses, but like Lemmy, Mastodon has no obligation to show all of that, and the official Mastodon frontend has methods built in to cut down on the spam. It’d probably be good if they’d enable these methods by default when Mastodon detects Lemmy posts, but when you start adding workarounds for specific platforms, the work never ends…
A lot of features that Mastodon lacks are implemented in a Mastodon fork (the glitch one), including showing Lemmy posts properly. People know Mastodon because it’s the “original” but there are a bunch of forks made by people who disagreed with the Mastodon team, and all of them are equally valid. Those alternatives just aren’t as big, unfortunately.
kbin/mbin seem to be the best option for “Lemmy user who wants to interact with microblogging platforms”. IceShrimp or the Mastodon Glitch fork seem to be best for “microbloggers who want to see Lemmy content”. Then there’s Friendica and a bunch of others that are aimed at entirely different communities still.
It’s kind of unfortunate that the platforms that grew big inside the Fediverse are the ones with such strict ideas about the direction their projects take, but then again, perhaps that’s why they succeeded where others failed.
A groups rework is currently on mastodon’s roadmap as inprogress. We’ve not heard a lot of what this will look like but it’s very likely it will solve issue 1.
2 is related to how Mastodon handles the ¿page? object in the activitypub spec. I believe Mastodon prefers notes but could implement dedicated handling of it and probably will at some point.
3 is actually just incorrect. All you need to do is mention the community and it will post.
The groups implementation for Mastodon has been stuck as a draft for 1.5 years now, I wouldnt expect it to get merged anytime soon. Even worse, for reasons I dont understand they made the group federation intentionally incompatible with Lemmy.
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