Research says involuntary celibate men make “fundamental errors” about what women want in a partner.
We all need more mental health help because *gestures broadly at everything.*
Also, mental health care is not going to solve problems caused by economic issues.
Came here thinking of a way to say exactly that so . . . uh . . same?
I don’t know about you but I do find my health a little mental
Malignant misogyny isn’t mental illness.
We can address problems with male alienation, isolation, and loneliness without having to coddle terrorist reactionaries.
No but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t need addressing
I think you’ll find that when you have what you need and dissolving that which you need not, there’s way less room for crap like racism and the -phobias
that depends on what you mean by addressing - there’s a ton of apologism for incels, as if they’re being persecuted.
So yeah, there’s a spectrum here and women accepting abusive and misogynist partners is definitely in the right wing playbook.
Why would I mean apologism? They need their worldview reprogramming because their current worldview is misogynistic and false. Reprogramming would include comprehensive challenging of negative attitudes and modelling of correct, non-misogynistic beliefs. It should be done by people with psychological training because they have the skills and knowhow needed to reprogramme someone’s thinking but it doesn’t particularly need mental health professionals or collusive, misplaced sympathy.
I provided a link to the line of thought. If that’s not you, great. But that doesn’t mean it’s not real.
yeah I got that. that’s why I responded:
that depends on what you mean by addressing
because there’s a wide array of responses and I’m genuinely curious to learn what you mean. Not because I was attacking your premise, but because there’s past history of this tact - that the world should accommodate a percentage of the population who have shown misogynistic tendencies. To which I say: nah. nope. naw.
Providing mental help does not equal women accepting abusive partners, how tf did you make that mental leap?
how tf did you make that mental leap?
did you read the link or just jump into the comments with a rageon? because the link explains how the right wing thinks of this shit. I didn’t make it up, they did.
My bad, I assumed we were actually staying on topic - getting incels mental help. I’ll correct myself and assume from now on that any comments that fail to make sense are bad-faith attempts to co-opt a post.
I’m not entirely sure they’re fully unrelated either though.
They needed a report to figure that out?
Everyone already knew that, yes, but in order to get these who control the purse strings to yield cash to address it, it needs formalising.
Universal health care would solve the problem. As would a (gasp) UBI.
It’s simplier to do report about thing mostly everybody already know than finding real solution
I can see that. These guys don’t know how to date/flirt etc they didn’t have the same milestones others kids did. They should have learned when everyone in their cohort was learning. Imagine if you didn’t learn the fundamentals of any subject but had to keep going to harder and harder levels. End up with the dating mind of a 13 year old trying to deal with 23 year olds. Of course you need experience to get experience like a fucking zen riddle so they fall even further behind. Partners don’t want to deal with the awkward insanity of a boy in a man’s body.
To be honest, dating 20+ is a shit show. The things i learned about dating in my teens didn’t help me dating in my 30’s. Sure they have issues dating but we all do. It’s the willingness to learn, adapt, and care for someone else that i don’t see in incels and that isn’t learned from dating in your teens. They seem to blame outside forces for their issues and not seek to improve themselves
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You can only blame yourself so much before it causes so much emotional anguish that you turn your frustration outwards.
Well for me it made a big difference. I don’t think me and my wife would have stayed together had it not been for other woman I had dated prior. Learned how to have an argument, how to show random acts of kindness, gotten the nerve up to tell them when they are hurting you unintentionally, etc. This stuff didn’t come naturally to me.
100%! I am not saying learning these things doesn’t help. But blaming lack of dating in their teens for an incel becoming who they are is not a valid justification in my opinion.
This right there is the source of most of my anxiety
I am not sure exactly what to advise, I imagine the longer you don’t do something about this the worst is going to get. So maybe be proactive?
Try interacting with women without the expectation of an intimate relationship. And I don’t mean “be friends for a while with the end goal of getting with them”. I think a big issue is seeing women as an achievement instead of as people.
The thing is women don’t want male friends as well. They are taught by society that men are all perverts and dangerous. So when men try to make friends, they’re automatically suspicious or just straight up reject them.
What? Most women I know, including myself, have male friends. What are you on about? Are you doing a bit, per your username?
This is exactly my situation and it seems to get more dire every year that I stay single. I wish I could upvotes you a thousand times.
Partners don’t want to deal with the awkward insanity of a boy in a man’s body.
nor should they be required to; the enormous amount of work we put on women to make relationships work is already crushing. This reminds me of the screeds about how “liberal women will need to compromise for the good of the demographics of the country, they’ll need to date conservatives of course!” - THEY REALLY THINK THIS SHIT. They feel they’re being DISCRIMINATED against for their views hahahaha, that’s how fucked up they are. https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2021/07/12/political-discrimination-as-civil-rights-struggle/
it’s obscene.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/3675477-young-women-are-trending-liberal-young-men-are-not/
Yeah, try telling them that and see how far it gets you…
“HEY BILL GIT THE TORTURE DEVICES READY”
I wonder if this outlook is more a sign that these people need some help getting started and in a productive tradjectory. Pretty sure this would be me if I hadn’t gotten laid+decent-pay, and had to live with family/random people, never having anything of my own…
I don’t know about that. I was pretty fine before my first. Place of your own and decent pay. Yeah. everyone needs that. Adults should be able to at a minimum have an efficency of their own while being able to pay at least minimal bills and if they split a multibedroom with roommates or rent out a room from a house they should be able to have a bit more spendy of a life. That should be the minimum and be easy to get. Not something you have to work hard to achieve.
I feel like you were mildly pushing back then ended up convincing yourself to the point you basicaly agree. Not that I want people to not be able to be satisfied even if they have to share a place, I’m just way to eclectic and crave freedom the moment the lock goes click lol
To a degree they do. It isn’t just mental health though.
I mean there’s so many underlying issues with incels and trying to overcome learned helplessness is no small task. But an idea that helped me was that there is either a problem with me and what I’m doing, or there’s a problem with all women. One of those issues I can take steps to try and improve, the other is completely out of my control and nothing I do will ever change that.
If you are incapable or unwilling to go through an honest introspection of yourself then things will never change for you imo.
Someone should told me about being an incel before I got my 3 kids… dammit. I’m spending a lot in child care.
I definitely feel like this in an entire simplication of an issue.
It’s just the old “someone does something wrong they are entirely to blame” fallacy. Or the old standby of “men are to blame for this”
I definitely feel they have some accurate readings on the world. Girls do fuck around with a small group of men who have an abnormal amount of partners, then settle years later when shes not as desirable. Girls do get to go for athletic guys, if you’re an arsehole it will get you places in life including with girls, girls only like boys that are tall and will tell that to everyone. (I genuinely think this is one of the worst everyday norms in society. Tell short men he would be attractive if he was tall is okay eventhough they can’t change it. But saying a fat girl would be hotter if she lost weight is awful, eventhough she can control that).
I’m lucky that I must have been at least somewhat in the top half of men 6ft+, good at sports, good in school, somehow I can be charismatic and funny eventhough I have wondered if I got autism. But I can definitely see the system. I can definitely agree with some of the points people have made online and see the horrible ways guys have been treated and see that people have it worse than I do.
So I don’t think they are fully to blame for all this. Some of it is society degrading, some of it is increasing competition, some of it unrealistic expecting from women, some of it is that “men are to blame” and “women are innocent” in all matters, and some of it is actually they need to sort their shit out. But putting it all on the last point and acting like they are mental isn’t right, they have a point and need to deal with it better but society also needs to treat men and boys better. Young white men in the UK are worse of than anyone when it comes to careers but you will constantly see everyone being given a leg up instead of young white males, even white males can’t apply for some jobs.
My personal opinion is we need to bring back men and boys only spaces. The best and most supportive times, where I got the most growth where in boys only clubs like scouts and the rugby club. But when you get older unless you got a guy only friendship group this doesn’t exist. I think it is a requirement for most guys mental health.
Taking from that article
" incel mental health was “through the floor”, with 20% having daily thoughts of suicide and high levels of loneliness.
In addition, he said a quarter would be offered immediate antidepressants or therapy if they completed an NHS depression screening form"
Men are lonely. I know let’s drug them. This is the point, why not advocate for some men only socialising. Plus my problems with girls was helped a lot from other guys. Guys still have to be the ones to initiate with women and my social anxiety was so high. But having you friends saying “go on. She’s looking at you. Go talk to her. Stop being a fucking pussy and just do it” Then if you get pushed back you get the “aw don’t worry about it mate, it happens to us all. Have a beer, you’ll feel better. I thought you was in, but fuck it you’ll get someone else” that support from men is I think the only thing that allowed me to talk to women as more than just friends.
You have very aptly demonstrated the core problem with the incel worldview: that women are somehow fundamentally different from men to the point that they are women first, and barely human.
The Venn diagram of traits of women and men is almost a completely overlapping circle. They aren’t some alien species with different fundamental needs, drives, and capabilities.
The problem with men-only spaces isn’t that they are only men. It is that they have been used historically to bar women from participating in things that would give them power.
You don’t need to exclude women to give men access to male friendships. It’s just that men are unused to having to work for emotional things when women are present. It’s time for them to take initiative and learn to treat women like human beings instead of objectives.
I think your core problem is that just because women are different you think that must mean they are somehow less valuable.
It is a completely reasonable position to think most men are different to most women at least in some ways.
To think the way men bond and the way women bond to be the same is completely misguided. Sure you could do it the same and you could have relationship that are built the same. But I haven’t roughhoused with my female friend or called them half the things I called my male friends.
Historical issues are no reflection of present issues. So if men need something, doesnt have to be this in particular but assuming they do need something, if women have indirectly suffered from it now men are not allowed that ever again? Why do women get women only places but men can’t, if we are so equal as you make out?
I don’t know why you are making out women are treated like objects. That is not the case at all you just pulled that out your arse to try win an argument. I’ve been friends with boys and girls my entire life. Just had female friends, had mixed groups and had men only friendship groups. The men only friendship groups have been a lot different and a lot more supportive so I think men need them. But apparently men needing anything in life is a crime. See how the incels are right with some things?
Women can roughhouse to bond. They do it all the time. But that isn’t what I’m talking about, and you know it. Apparently having female friends hasn’t taught you much about broader dynamics of women’s issues.
Women get women only places to be SAFE from men, not because they can’t handle men having access to power. The premise is very different. For example, I’d have no problem with men having male-only gyms if they were so afraid of being sexually attacked by women they couldn’t work out in peace.
The problem isn’t men needing anything, so you can take that poor pity cap off and get out of the corner. The problem is men expecting everyone else to supply them with what they need because any other option doesn’t even cross their mind.
If you seriously think women aren’t largely treated as objectives, your head is so far in the sand, there’s no hope of me digging it out. Good luck to you.
