What do you think?
One of My strongest memories is watching a documentary where they claimed dogs don’t dream, and my dogs directly in front of the TV making little sleep barks and moving legs deep into some dream.
Let’s be honest we are animals and the rest aren’t all that far behind us.
Yeah I understand but I’m talking about an inner monologue, not about dreaming…
Are we even sure everyone has one of those? Not everyone has a mind’s eye.
Not everyone has an inner monologue
What’s driving me wild about these claims is I DON’T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK PEOPLE EVEN MEAN with “inner monologue”. And none of those stupid articles seems to bother to first and foremost try to define what the fuck they are writing about. A definition of the word…
Apparently some people actually hear a voice and see things in their mind.
Your comment seems to imply that you don’t believe this is the default?
I don’t remember the numbers I’ve read in studies, but i recall thinking it was around 50/50.
Something that I think trips people up when trying to understand what it’s like to have an inner monologue or to visualize things in your mind is that we don’t really have better words for the experience.
I have an inner monologue, and saying that I “hear” a voice in my head when I’m thinking about something isn’t exactly the way I would choose to describe it, there’s just no simpler way to really put it.
It’s sort of like there are words “happening” in my head. As I think through something my brain is putting the thoughts and concepts together with words describing those thoughts. If I’m, for example, deciding what color to paint something, while I’m thinking through the possibilities, my brain is just sort of conjuring up sentences that match my thoughts like “if I paint it red, it will look funny, so I’ll paint it blue instead, yeah, that’s what I’ll do, alright gotta go to the store for blue paint.” There’s not a literal voice making noises in my head that I hear the same way I hear someone standing in front of me talking, but I intuitively know what the voice speaking those imaginary words would sound like, and the thoughts and ideas I have that way kind of get processed in my brain in a similar way to how it would absorb ideas from someone explaining something to me verbally.
Similarly when I say I can “see” something in my head, if I picture, let’s say a car, there’s not a literal car floating in my visual field somewhere like some kind of voluntary hallucination. It’s sort of like having a complete intuitive understanding of exactly what that car looks like, you know what it looks like from all angles, with the doors open and closed, what it looks like in motion and parked, etc. without actually having to go look at it, open the doors, see it being driven around, etc. and all of that information is getting processed though the same or similar parts of my brain that would process actually looking at the car.
I like to use the analogy of your brain as a computer. When you’re actually hearing or seeing something it’s like you have a microphone or webcam pointed at something feeding into the computer, and having it output right to the monitor.
If, instead, you used your computer to run a super detailed 3d simulation of a car, the end result would look much the same with a car driving on your monitor and the accompanying sounds coming out of your speakers. Except your brain isn’t actually putting those images and sounds on-screen, it’s keeping that window minimized and sounds muted on that app. It’s still doing all of the processing, rendering, encoding, etc. it would have to do to output those images and sounds, it knows what the car is doing in that simulation as long as it’s running and what it would look and sound like, it’s just not outputting that information onto the screen. And since your brain is the computer that’s running the simulation, it’s not terribly important that it’s not being displayed anywhere because you still just know what that simulation looks and sounds like.
Everyone’s brain is wired a little differently and of course I can only try to explain my own personal experience with how my brain works, but overall I find that this sort of explanation tends to ring pretty true for people who do have an internal monologue and don’t have aphantasia.
And of course there’s probably a pretty wide spectrum of how people actually experience this, how detailed the images, sounds, and words in their head can be and what they’re able to do with them.
And like I touched on a little at the beginning, there’s the language aspect. I personally wouldn’t really choose to describe these things as “seeing” and “hearing,” I just don’t have a better word for them. Others may find that other terms to describe the same thing just feel better and make more sense to them.
Kind of like how we’ve collectively agreed that chili peppers are “hot” and “burn” your mouth. Eating some spicy food doesn’t really feel the same as if you burned your mouth drinking coffee that is too hot or something, but it does activate some similar kinds of nerves and parts of your brain and such and the experiences are somewhat similar, so we’ve just kind of decided that terms like “hot” and “burning” are close enough.
But if you got someone who had no prior knowledge of hot peppers and had them eat one, it’s possible that they might come up with different words to describe what they experience. Maybe instead of saying that it “burns” they might say that it “itches,” “tingles,” “hurts,” etc. and they wouldn’t be wrong, those words just felt the most right to them to describe their experience.
In the case of peppers, that’s something we can easily reach a common understanding of. We can just tell them “we call that sensation burning” and anyone who doesn’t know what it feels like can just take a bite of a jalapeno and then we’re all on the same page.
Unfortunately when we’re talking about how we think and process information, we can never really be sure if we’re experiencing the same thing. We can’t just have them take a bite out of our inner monologue like they can with a jalapeno so we can ask them “is this what thinking is like for you?” We just have to use our words to describe it, and hope that they also landed on “burning” to describe it instead of “itching”
I’m not saying that all people have what I would describe as an inner monologue, or the ability to picture things in their head and just don’t realize it, I’m quite certain that some people don’t experience the world that way. I think there’s probably some cases where people do and don’t realize it because of how others explain it, but mostly I think there’s just a gap in our language that makes it hard to explain what we’re experiencing to people whose brains don’t work that way. I’m kind of curious if there’s another language that does make a better distinction between actually hearing/seeing things and having an internal monologue or “hearing”/“seeing” things in your mind and how that affects these sorts of conversations among those people.
instead, you used your computer to run a super detailed 3d simulation of a car, the end result would look much the same with a car driving on your monitor and the accompanying sounds coming out of your speakers. Except your brain isn’t actually putting those images and sounds on-screen, it’s keeping that window minimized and sounds muted on that app
I’m curious, what is your experience with sound generally? Because I do not identify with my brain muting apps but it’s mainly music so I don’t really mind. If a song is in your head are you aware of the song or is it closer to hearing artists’ voice/instruments?
Wow. I was just thinking how best to describe my “inner monologue,” and the fact that it’s not really seeing and hearing. But now I don’t have to because you nailed it. I want to subscribe to your blog. Also, instead of “burning” I say we change the word for jalapeño taste to “spicification.” “OMG this pepper! My mouth is spicified!”
It’s like talking to yourself, but not vocalizing it. At least that’s how I understand it
I still don’t know whether that means my absolutely everyday way to think the words I am typing right now, or if some people can actually hear their “inner voice” like in a movie voiceover when the protagonists thoughts are narrated in the protagonist’s voice. Or do people have a “dialogue” in their heads? I mean that never occurred to me because at least that part of "mono"logue is clear…
Yes, we hear a voice talking in our head. When I’m typing this response, I hear all the words in my head before I type them.
I think there are probably people who go through each as you described. I think we’re learning there’s many different ways brains can work.
Don’t over think it too much.
Pretty much the inner voice thing. Like you are talking yourself through what you are doing, commenting internally on what you see and stuff.
Dreaming definetly involves quite deep thoughts imo.
I just found it absolutely mad these science guys on TV where claiming dogs don’t dream, I mean it’s obviously nonsense to anyone who has ever had a dog how the hell do they get to their nonsense conclusions
I can tell that even my pet gerbils have dreams. Man I’d love to know what they’re dreaming of. They’ve effectively spent their entire lives inside that glass terrarium so I can’t imagine there being a huge variety of novel experiences to dream of.
IIUC during REM sleep your body loses muscle tone. And that’s the phase of sleep where dream happens. Which means, at least in humans, when you twitch in sleep, you aren’t dreaming. Same thing when someone is sleepwalking.
I would say all living things have some form of thought and consciousness. Even those that lack brains like plants.
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Thoughts, yes. Please keep in mind that thoughts are not necessarily in the form of a voice, even in humans.
I think so. I have parrots who are at a 4 year old human’s intelligence level. They do things they know they shouldn’t and wait for me to turn my back, it’s like they know they shouldn’t but have an intrusive thought and act on it. Of course, once I say “excuse me…” With the dad tone, they fly to their cages and pretend they did nothing. To me that takes thought and reasoning, desire, planning, action, etc. On their part.
Why would anyone think that thought is unique to humans? Seems absurd to a frightening degree.
The voice in my head requires complex language and symbolism. I don’t doubt that they’re capable of thought, just like Helen Keller was capable of thought before having language, but I doubt that it’s like the “little voice” in my head.
Probably not expressed as a voice, but definitely thinking.
One of our cats would regularly get “that look” on her face and we’d tell her “Lorelei! Stop thinking evil thoughts!” then she’d go on a tear. Clearly plotting what she was going to do.
My cat has thoughts. They’re usually “today I feel like biting my owner because it’s a load of fun”
This video perfectly describes my cat… except the actual fur color. Because he’s a snowshoe, not… whatever kind of cat species is in this video.
I’m not sure about all animals, but I’m pretty sure my sphinx cat does. I have to give her medicine every day and not only does she knows when it’s time to get it, but there are times where she will hide under the bed. Just laying down and looking at her and asking her to come out is enough to get her to wander over slowly and get it. It’s funny, you can almost see the thoughts going through her head as she realizes she has to just give in and go get her pill.
No, they operate on instinct. Our thoughts are in our own language, their only language is instinct and body language (barks included).
Based on watching my Borzoi decide whether or not to sneak into the kitchen, I’d say yes.
No, but that is because they don’t have language.
That said, plenty of humans do not have a voiced internal experience. The lack of language does not imply a lack of cognition. I would expect that the brain of a closely related organism, say a chimp, would have many similar experiences generated by the same stimuli. Would they experience green like I experience green? I can’t even say that about a person sitting next to me, but they probably have an equivalent experience.
That said, if we had a way of communicating could we reach agreed terms? I can do that with my cat, so I would think he has an understanding of me and my behaviours along with what tends to happen when I do certain things like clap then shake my hands at the end of a treat session. He knows there are no more treats, he associates that with my hands clapping and shaking, so we communicate. Does he have a voice in his head describing it? Probably not. Does he have Meows? Again, probably not, but he would have a sense and memories of previous times.
they don’t have language
Have you never seen a dog wag their tail or play bow?
Have you never seen a squirrel twitching their tail at another squirrel who’s encroached on their territory?
Have you never encountered any media about whale songs?
All kinds of animals have all kinds of language.
I meant to say language in the linguistics sense, a series of abstract items which can be arranged to convey arbitrary meaning. For example, a dog barking can be a threat display, a warning, playful, sad, afraid, and so on. But can you use barking to create grammar? With grammar you could have labels for items in the world and use various barks to refer to them, make requests, ask questions, and so on. Some types of animals have warning calls that are specific to types of predators, for example an eagle call or a leopard call. Leopards require different responses than eagles so the distinction is very useful and helps others to respond. This is not quite language but is definitely a step in the right direction.
So yes, you are correct, lots of animals can communicate things to each other, but it is not the same as language like what humans have. Could we find an animal that does have language? Or something very close? Sure, but we haven’t shown that yet. Maybe we should focus on giving other animals a chance to develop before we wipe them all out.
but it is not the same as language like what humans have
And it doesn’t have to be. In fact this sort of thinking can limit how we learn about other animals.
Dogs don’t pass the mirror test for self awareness like some corvids and a few other animals do. But dogs don’t experience each other primarily through vision, scent is much more their main sense. So is that even a valid test for canid self awareness?
Some animals do have language and animals that are around people a lot likely have an inner voice that is their owner’s voice.
They likely don’t plan using this voice, the way people do. But it certainly influences their behavior.
A dog that’s been yelled at for getting in the garbage might hear a no in their head even if their owners at work.
This is something I’ve always been highly skeptical of. As a somewhat experienced meditator, I’m hyper-aware of the constant flood of self-talk happening in my head, but I don’t remember paying particular attention to it before I started practicing. It has always been there, but until then, I hadn’t paid any special attention to it. Whenever this subject comes up with people who don’t meditate, they often seem to live under the illusion that, except for intentional thoughts, their mind is more or less silent the rest of the time. I’d argue that 99.9% of people couldn’t sit for 20 seconds without letting their mind wander, even if their life depended on it. Even I couldn’t, despite my experience in meditation.
That’s why I think that when people are asked whether they have this inner voice or not, some say no because they’re not aware of it. Not having it would effectively be synonymous with being enlightened.
I have internal voice sometimes but not others. In some things my cognition is far more verbal, working through something like a monologue or conversation. Other times I may have more of a mental image of something, sometimes more in real space and sometimes completely disconnected from real space. Sometimes it is much more abstract with sensations and emotions with very little in terms of concrete metaphores.
Also I can have racing thoughts without it being language. I also have impacts on those racing thoughts from taking Ritalin (ADHD medication) and it is not just the word thoughts but also the flow of other types of cognition.
Also an experienced meditator.
Not everyone thinks in words. Some people think in pictures. Or in other sense consciousnesses. As an experienced cook, I can think in taste and smell without any auditory component of ‘what should I put in this dish’. For example.
As for word thinking, passive thoughts are more auditory and active thoughts more somatic (throat and jaw muscles will move). These can be decoupled from the sense of I making, especially passive thoughts.
At which point you get thoughts think themselves, to quote Jack Kornfield. A sort of bubbling up of passive thoughts in voices that aren’t mine.
It’s likely animals that live close to people experience this. The owners voice yelling no when they do something the owner wouldn’t like, even if the owner isn’t around.
Anyway, trying to not think can be like holding your breath. I can do that for awhile. But it’s not right effort. Letting thoughts settle, like sand in a glass of water. And letting go of the sense of I making. The mind will rest quite naturally. That’s calm abiding.
In other words, it’s attachment to the inner voice that’s making it difficult for you to imagine that a lot of people think in pictures or other ways. And noticing this sense of attachment in your practice with the intention of letting it go, might deepen your insight into yourself and what others may or may not experience.
Edit: this listening meditation is helpful for me in letting go of attachment to the inner voice. As is annapanasati, especially the third tetrad.
Does he have Meows?
That’s such a cute and funny thing to imagine lol. An inner meowologue
I don’t think they have an internal monologue. I think they just react to their senses.
But they can make plans, they have goal-oriented behavior that drives them to seek out a goal that exists beyond their senses. If I leave the house through the front door without giving my dog his customary distraction, he goes out the back door and around the side because he knows that, if I haven’t properly secured the fence, he can get out through the fence to reach me. Nothing about that involves his senses, it’s just something he’s figured out.
Now, I doubt any part of that involves an internal monologue because they don’t use language (even though they can, in fact, understand limited language). If they don’t use it themselves, they probably don’t figure things out in their heads that way, it simply wouldn’t be very efficient. But they certainly possess more complex internal cognition than just “I smell food” or whatever.
When I solve the kinds of problems that animals have been shown to be able to solve, there’s no inner vocalization. I solve those problems using visual simulations in my head. I use virtual hands more than I use a virtual voice to solve such things.
I’m autistic.
To be honest, that’s me too! (And I also might be autistic.) But I’m capable of thinking things out verbally, something I do particularly in regard to programming and architecture problems, or figuring out what to say to someone else. So it’s a tool that’s available to me. I don’t think it’s available to my dog, but I’ll bet he’s doing virtual paws.
No, at least not most animals. There was a study a while back that showed that animals think by reducing the world to a series of binary choice that they react to in the moment. I imagine it’s a lot like when you’re playing a sport or video game and things get very intense and fast paced; your inner monologue isn’t telling you what your next move will be every second, you’re just reacting on instinct. That’s probably how animals see the world all the time.
That being said, “animals,” is a broad category, and some of them may be capable of creating an abstract narrative for themselves. It was recently discovered that whale songs have a phonetic alphabet, which means their language may be as complex as ours. If that’s the case, they may be capable of using that language to build an internal monologue.
Humans are animals.
True though that may be, there’s no benefit to mentioning that in this situation.
I was making the point on the notion that we might be alone in that vs animals. If you don’t distinguish man from other animals, why would you assume that they couldn’t?
they
… So what sort of non-human are you? 🧐
He’s a cat.
Dogs dream, and dreams are just thoughts.
