During a recent episode of The Verge’s Decoder podcast, Logitech CEO Hanneke Faber shed some possible insight into the company’s view on one of its most important products. Saying that “the mouse built this house,” Faber shares the planning behind a Forever Mouse, a premium product that the company hopes will be the last you ever have to buy. There’s also a discussion about a subscription-based service and a deeper focus on AI.
For now, details on a Forever Mouse are thin, but you better believe there will be a catch. The Instant Pot was a product so good that customers rarely needed to buy another one. The company went bankrupt.
I think this idea is even stupider than it seems, and that’s already pretty fucking bad. I don’t think this idiot understands that people who still buy mice are people who didn’t “upgrade” to iPads or just use their phone as their only computer. We are power users, and are more likely to smell the bullshit than anyone else.
Why my favorite mouse company gotta start with this bullshit. GOT-DAMN!
Instant Pot was a product so good that customers rarely needed to buy another one. The company went bankrupt.
Bull-fucking-shit. That’s just not how any of this works.
There are plenty of companies that make appliances that last a long fucking time, and don’t have to rely on fucking DLC micro transaction AI bullshit. The reason Instant Pot went bankrupt is the same reason a ton of popular companies have recently had issues: They got bought by private equity (who also owned Pyrex and fucked them over), saddled with a shitton of bad debt, squeezed of every bit of brand value they had, and then left to fall apart as the PE firm made off with millions.
The fact that the writer correlated “quality, durable good” with “unsuccessful business and bankruptcy” is absolutely one of the worst takes, and really shows just how pervasive this disgusting idea of “must be disposable to be profitable” really is.
Thank you for typing this up because I was not capable of doing it because vitriol messes up my WPM.
Partially true, but also they wouldn’t invest in something that lasts forever (without it costing an absurd amount of money or the subscription requirement). I like this video that shows the issue pretty well. (TLDW: Communist Germany made glass so durable it didn’t break as a product to sell to the west. No company would purchase it though because they made most of their profit from selling replacements. The glass is now what we call Gorilla Glass, which is really only available on phones, which are designed to be replaced every few years anyway.)
100 years ago there was a meeting amongst lightbulb manufacturers that all collectively agreed to only design light bulbs to last about 1,000 hours. They were known as The Phoebus Cartel and Included Phillips and GE. Up until this agreement lighbulbs were typically lasting up to 2,500 hours. The manufacturers essentially created the concept of planned obsolescence because people weren’t buying as many lighbulbs as they wanted and it was decided to stop making longer lasting bulbs with higher costs. The whole thing started falling apart (competition of non members that were making bulbs, but they were all small operations, as well as patent expirations that GE had) and the start of world War two pretty much broke it up, as the Cartel couldn’t keep everything regulated and tested due to all the travel restrictions and such. But it still remains as the first global wide creation of planned obsolescence.
Extra fun fact: the common light socket screw design/size has remained the same since 1880.
That is mostly a myth. They did agree of the lifetime, but it wasn’t planned obsolescence like people act. The lifetime of a bulb is directly related to how bright it is. If you make a really dim bulb it lasts a long time, which is how that one in the firehouse is still alive. It’s so dim it’s effectively useless. The group met to decide on a luminosity target, which also is a lifespan target effectively.
Not if you read/believe most of the info on the wiki. US government fined GE over it in 1949.
No, even the wiki (under “purpose”) says the myth is probably not true. It was a cartel though, and therefore illegal in many/most places. It just wasn’t because the planned obsolescence. Lowering lifespan also led to selling more bulbs though, so it was useful for that.
Yes, A dim bulb is extremely inefficient, it will use a lot of electricity for a very small amount of light.
On the other hand you can make very efficient lightbulb that will be very bright for a small amount of electricity but last only for a few minutes.
The 1000 hours limits is a nice middle ground.
And what of the noble gas filled bulbs that were both brighter and longer lasting?
i mean, all incandecant bulbs are filled with a noble gas, Argon. If they didnt any bulb would have a lifespan measured in seconds.
Back in the 1920’s and earlier they were commonly just in a vacuum.
MaaS?
I think it’s time to stop with subscription bullshit.
I understand that they prefer that, but it quickly becomes the only purpose fulfilled by these devices which is not fulfilled by more normal ones, while the main purposes suffer, looking closer to an excuse.
Also the argument of businesses going bankrupt when something is done too well - that’s by design. Progress works via removing bottlenecks one after another. Businesses which were located at those bottlenecks die. It’s fine, the society doesn’t need them anymore. Management and employees have mostly transferable skills and experience. If they earn less, then maybe their work is worth less, since the business failed. Investors lose money, and that’s fine, it’s the purpose of investment - judge wisely and win, judge poorly and lose.
It still irritates me how sometimes socialist-minded people say that it’s bad that in capitalism businesses (and whole industries) fail, and this should be fixed, but then blame capitalism for the results of preventing businesses (or whole industries) from failing.
I have internalized all the leftist arguments heard here, some are fundamentally and practically very true, but sometimes fixing the thing you have would yield results just as good or better as looking for that better thing you don’t know where.
OK, I’ve diverted from the point.
Somehow businesses making nails and screwdrivers don’t complain about making too good a screwdriver. Because, well, the good screwdriver still dies after sometime, and the amount of people who need tools grows, yadda-yadda.
This should work the same way in computing, but hype-scamming customers is such a norm there, that doing business the normal way seems the way to bankruptcy to them. They should all fail. We are doing - for the real-life useful output, not for FLOPS and IOPS, - just a bit more than in 90s, but for orders of magnitude bigger cost.
socialist-minded people say that it’s bad
No they don’t, assuming your talking about democratic socialists not old eastern bloc socialism.
I’m talking about people without ideology, who just want for the government to make it “safer” to do business so that businesses wouldn’t fail. They are also usually in favor of safety nets, regulation, wealth redistribution, which is why I said “socialist-minded”.
it was these keycaps: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001681753913.html
Came with the wrong size space, so had to order a smaller in (not shown in the pic), which isn’t listed on Ali anymore.
Oh God if they put AI in the MX Master Mice then I’m boned.
Pass
Logitech already offers a forever mouse for many years: G502. There is noting more to add to a perfect and lasting mouse.
And now they want to reinvent the wheel? Sounds like this is already going wrong.
I don’t see any mention of changes to the wheel
I love the new magnetic wheel. Got right after my g502 died
Logitech CEO can fuck right off.
Since we’re pretty much all in agreement that Logitech has enshittified with the Great Ones like Ubisoft, Hewlett Packard, and more, let’s talk about our last great products they made that we will no longer recommend! 😃
These are all my products that I love, and have been extremely high quality. All of them work just fine to this day!
- Logitech G502 Proteus Spectrum mice (I own two, bought in 2018 I believe and still using)
- Logitech C920 1080p 30 FPS webcam
- Logitech G613 Lightspeed Wireless keyboard (great keyboard I use for work, hate that the keys are painted and will eventually wear away)
- Logitech G603 Wireless Mouse (for work, works fantastic!)
- Logitech Litra Beam LED lights (I own two)
Oh Logitech. Why can’t you just make products we can own instead of following the greedy “As a Service”? Ah well! Bound to happen one day (Steam, please please don’t ever become public).
I bought half a dozen G502’s when I found out they were changing them many years ago, and I’ve only opened 1 of them. Pretty sure I’m good for life at this point.
I like the M705 for my work PC. Wireless and the batteries literally last for years. They do eventually die to the ‘double click of death’ so no points for longevity of hardware.
Also have a G13 that I like. Never found a better gaming half-keyboard but they stopped making them a long time ago.
did you ever watch the youtube ‘deepdive’ into the double click?
Turns out they are using an older switch which, while great at the time, wants a higher voltage than modern, electricity diet, mice.
I have not but I’ll check it out later. Thanks!
Dude, the G502 is such a great mouse. Mine has lived through so many years of gaming and is still chugging!
If you get ~7 years of life out of the M705, I would consider that to be quality since it would last through thousands of hours of usage. Any less and I would consider it a dud product, but that is certainly my opinion only there.
Never heard of the G13 before, so I looked it up and I think that’s pretty cool! This would have been a product I would have to try to see if it would fit my use case for gaming. A mini keyboard with a joystick seems cool, and admittedly I’m hovering my left hand in the air and trying to mimick what that would be like. Hard to conceptualize without actually trying it! I hope you got good use out of it, it does seem really cool.
If Logitech didn’t enshittify, they should’ve made their own version of the Power Glove. 😀 The Power Glove was way before my time on Earth, but man that would’ve been cool to see for PC.
I have never found anything as nice for my hand as the G502, and it has the perfect amount of buttons. That’s why I had to stock up!
The G13 got really popular AFTER Logitech discontinued it, because there really hasn’t been anything like it on the market. I went looking to stock up on those too, but I was too late - they will go for a couple hundred bucks or more, used, when you can find one!
Such a shame too because I always recommended the G502. I love the feel, the ergonomics, and the button placement. I love the customizeable weights you can swap in. I used to play with all the weights, but then over the years I took them all out and now use none. My aim got better in FPS games - I went from steaming hot garbage to just regular garbage LOL.
I’m going to watch a couple review videos of the G13 to see if it’s up my alley. And if yes, I’ll add that bad boy to my watch lists and pick up a used one if I can score it for a decent price.
They do eventually die to the ‘double click of death’ so no points for longevity of hardware.
Interesting… I’ve had one for 10 years, use it nearly daily, and haven’t had any issues.
I’m on my 3rd or 4th one now. They still always last a good 5 years.
The aggressive enshittification of everything is why I’ve started downloading games from gog instead of steam.
Its why i have a jellyfin server.
Now its why ill have to find a new favorite mouse to use and have multiple backups of (once my g502 wireless and the backup finally die)
Hello fellow GOG fan! I own 620 games on GOG, and I license 214 games on Steam. Granted some of those Steam games do not have DRM, so consider that an estimate.
Man you sound almost exactly like me lol. A lot of angry persons who have been burned by companies are becoming like us. What sent me over the edge was when Ubisoft threatened to shutdown their legacy activation servers, which would have led to me losing the DLC I purchased for my physical Wii U copy of Splinter Cell Blacklist. They backpedaled after significant fan backlash, but now I’ve been radicalized. I avoid “as a service” to the best of my ability and am deliberately hostile to these corporations.
I have a Logitech G710+. After years (like 8) of use, the keycaps were starting to crack with age. I reached out to Logitech and they sent me all new keycaps, free of charge, despite being several times past the warranty period.
Truly amazing customer service.
That’s quality right there. You probably would have bought those key caps, but they just sent them to you for free. That’s going above and beyond, and that’s how you keep a customer. Noctua is all about that, and I’ll continue to buy their products and recommend them.
Such a shame, Logitech. You were great but now you’re turning into crap.
yea, would have happily paid for keycaps, since i was so far past any kind of warrenty.
Ended up buying some nicer, PBT kecaps 4 years after that anyways. Still use this keyboard, even if part of the backlighting has failed in the… 12 years.
That’s a good looking keyboard right there mate.
Nice keycaps! Can you please provide link to them? Thinking of getting some fancy ones myself.
Same with me! I bought that keyboard because at the time it was the cheapest mechanical keyboard I could find that wasn’t an Aliexpress special, and it’s still working well for me.
The keycaps for that keyboard have a known design issue - the plastic part that connects it to the key is too thin and breaks easily - which is why I think they’re willing to send out free replacements.
My previous logi mouse lasted for a decade before giving up.
My current MX mouse lasted almost 3 years before the rubber started separating from the case at the palm area.
I don’t know if I will buy another logi mouse.
I hear you dude. That 10+ year reputation is what drove me to buy their stuff, along with all the glowing user recommendations.
I heard that you can make the rubber last longer on mice by periodically cleaning them to slow their chance of breaking down, but I never experienced the rubber actually separating. That happened to my spouse’s Razer mouse (heh, that rhymes).
But I suppose that, apart from this whole post’s focus on “as a service”, that possibly Logi products have begun to go downhill quite recently. I wouldn’t know, all of mine have been great. Sucks for your MX mouse, but I feel you on the uncertainty of buying future Logi mice.
I use their webcams and I’m not very impressed with the results. They haven’t updated the technology in a decade or more.
That’s a fair point. It’s interesting because this month I was considering upgrading my webcam to a 1080p 60fps one and certainly was going to consider them. I probably would have lightly researched a new Logi webcam and then bought it considering their track record and how wonderful my products have been.
I want to give companies my money in exchange for good products, but it’s weird! My morals won’t let me for some reason. It’s like I don’t agree with Logitech or something! Oh well! I’ll keep my money in my pocket and save it for a better product that doesn’t treat their customers like cattle.
It’s such a pain to find things. Would be nice to just have a list of products that work decently without subscriptions or printer ink economy bullshit.
When enough people are burned, that list will arise spontaneously. I’m sure there are some that are out there, but they probably are not well-known yet.
For example in the privacy community, Privacy Guides is one of the golden sources. I expect we’ll see something soon for products that avoid enshittification.
If you don’t mind spending money on a good product, the Insta360 Link is a fantastic webcam. It has a 3-axis gimbal which lets you pan, tilt, and rotate. It has an AI feature that’s actually useful - it can follow you as you move around.
Their control software only works on Windows and MacOS but I’m working on something similar for Linux.
And now I no longer wish to buy Logitech products…
I stopped when they added AI to their software
I no longer wished to use Logitech products after using G-Hub. Most horrible software.
I set my settings using ghub then stored it on the mouse and uninstalled ghub. Works really well for me
I’m curious what monumentally terrible ideas they have for adding machine learning or LLM features to HIDs.
I’ll go out of my way to avoid ever owning any of them, but I’m curious.
There’s also a discussion about a subscription-based service and a deeper focus on AI.
This line made me think that maybe the subscription was a different thing? So I googled and found this interview: https://www.theverge.com/24206847/logitech-ceo-hanneke-faber-mouse-keyboard-gaming-decoder-podcast-interview:
I’m going to ask this very directly. Can you envision a subscription mouse?
Possibly.
And that would be the forever mouse?
Yeah.
So you pay a subscription for software updates to your mouse.
Yeah, and you never have to worry about it again, which is not unlike our video conferencing services today.
But it’s a mouse.
But it’s a mouse, yeah.
I think consumers might perceive those to be very different.
[Laughs] Yes, but it’s gorgeous. Think about it like a diamond-encrusted mouse.
Okay…
Also from that interview:
Some only have a mouse or only a keyboard, but many of them have both. But the thing that shocked me was that the average spend on that globally is $26, which is really so low. This is stuff you use every day, that sits on your desk every day, that you look at every day. That’s like the price of four coffees at Starbucks or less than a Nike running shirt. There is so much room to create more value in that space as we make people more productive — to extend human potential.
Guys, you are not giving Logitech enough money! You can do better!
4 coffee??? Damn
Think about it like a diamond-encrusted mouse.
Oh good grief. Do they really think they can adopt the subscription-for-heated-seats model, and get people to use their high-end computer peripherals as some kind of flex? I just don’t see people holding their “Logitechtm Gamer PC Lease” over anyone else’s head.
My optimism has me thinking that this CEO is deliberately tilting at windmills in order to appease shareholders, because Logitech has been around long enough to be steady-state (not growing much) at this point.
It felt like a joke based on the tone.
Oh wow I never wanted to stop buying Logitech before. I guess there’s a first time for everything. Fuck this noise.
Really? They went to shit over a decade ago. Cheap $30 Chinese Amazon mice surpassed Logitech in quality around 2013. I was getting so sick and tired of spending $80 on a mouse with a middle click that was going to break in a couple of years.
Yeah I bought a Logitech mouse and a little after a year the right click went bad. It would randomly click twice, never stop clicking, or not click at all. I ended up ordering some replacement japanese switches on digikey for like $5, unsoldered the old ones and resoldered the new ones. It’s been close to 10 years now and with the new switches, it’s the best mouse I’ve ever owned. I’m not happy with Logitech but I am happy with my custom mouse
I really like their master MX master mice. I find them much more comfortable than alternatives.
2013 might be an exaggeration, but yea most Chinese brand mouses (Lamzu for example) are solid picks unless you care about software
yeah, I’ve always gone for Logitech and they have had great customer support. i guess I’ll have to look for something else next time i replace a peripheral.
