Obviously, a bit of clickbait. Sorry.
I just got to work and plugged my surface pro into my external monitor. It didn’t switch inputs immediately, and I thought “Linux would have done that”. But would it?
I find myself far more patient using Linux and De-googled Android than I do with windows or anything else. After all, Linux is mine. I care for it. Grow it like a garden.
And that’s a good thing; I get less frustrated with my tech, and I have something that is important to me outside its technical utility. Unlike windows, which I’m perpetually pissed at. (Very often with good reason)
But that aside, do we give Linux too much benefit of the doubt relative to the “things that just work”. Often they do “just work”, and well, with a broad feature set by default.
Most of us are willing to forgo that for the privacy and shear customizability of Linux, but do we assume too much of the tech we use and the tech we don’t?
Thoughts?
Each time I go back on windows I realize it’s worse than I remembered, even though I never liked it. One thing I quickly realized after getting constantly asked for help about issues on windows : people tend to be greatly biased about how reliable it is, mostly because it’s all they’ve known for a long time.
People often talk about compatibility regarding Linux, but are somehow oblivious to all the devices and hardware made for windows that somehow fails miserably to work when it has no good reason to…while Linux, despite most hardware and software not being made with it in mind, can sometimes somehow work wonders.
Windows only «just works» because it’s made by a monopolistic monster of a company, with a ton of software and tools and stuff made for it because of how widespread it is, and despite that their OS is just plain garbage…
Just today, I was using windows on my laptop, playing a game made for windows, Black Ops. And it crashes every time I boot up the Call of the Dead. On linux, while it does stutter on that map depending on where i am, I can still play it surprisingly. Its very strange.
Just out of curiosity, aside from the good example posted below by @trslim@pawb.social, could you provide some examples of “devices and hardware made for windows that somehow fails miserably to work when it has no good reason to”? :)
This one is more a case of «it didn’t work on windows for a reason but worked on Linux for no reason» : More than a decade ago, I got my first Graphic Tablet (yeah another one), it was from a dead brand, their drivers were still online but not supported anymore. But the tablet still worked out of the box on windows 8, only… windows wasn’t able to detect pressure so it looked like I was drawing with a mouse, Linux didn’t have such issue. At that same period my laptop (wich was the first that I owned) turned half dead after an update, wasn’t as tech savy as now but at the time all that I knew was that the disk had some issue that I could not fix…windows would not work on it anymore and that’s how I tried daily driving Linux for the second time, I lasted with this half dead pc under kubuntu until windows 10 came out (mostly because by then I got my first desktop and proton wasn’t a thing for games).
The Xbox 360 controller wireless adpater was a pretty big piece of shit 70% of the time.
That is a good example. Thanks.
Sure :
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My worst/best personal one : had a Huion Graphic Tablet that would just refuse to work on my windows 10 pc, either with the drivers given to me on a small disk, or with the ones on the site, had to contact the company for help (eventually they did)…thought it would be a nightmare on linux…couldn’t be more wrong, it worked straight freaking up, even had the luxury to install Huion drivers that actually worked…or just a bunch of non Huion stuff to calibrate the thing if I needed to…although none of it was necessary…like how ??
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More recently I got a Switch Pro Controller knockoff, thought I had to install some packages to make it work on Linux but no, worked out of the box wirelessly and plugged in, when I wanted to play with a friend who uses windows, had no choice but to plug it in with an awfully small cable (the only one my friend had at their house, didn’t bring mine), bluetooth refused to work whatever we tried…
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Some years back I helped a friend to buy a decent microphone (don’t remember the brand)…only to have them call me the next day because windows didn’t detect it…the mic was your usual usb plug and play thing…spent an hour on the phone playing customer support. When I went at their house later, I plugged it to Linux for the fun of it and it just worked…
On the more usual stuff there is the great classic of printers not working, that must be the thing people asked me for help the most, didn’t try Linux on most of them, but some (friends, family) I had to and never had an issue…and the comical thing is, for our printer at home I had to install some drivers through the AUR to make it work and even with that it’s just awful (making it work on windows is even worse but it works a little bit better). I also got called for webcam issues, keyboard issues, usb, drives… That’s the device part.
Regarding hardware, it will be hard to be specific because I helped a lot of people with pc stuff over the years, it something I do on my spare time. What I can say is, each time I am called for something big like a pc (mostly old laptops) not working/dead, or some drives dying, or refurbishing some antiquities or part of them, I always bring my Linux laptop and a bootable usb stick with a bunch of distros on it, because I know it’ll be more usefull than using windows. I remember the nightmare of trying to reinstall windows on some laptops (that had windows, that are still within what should be compatible)…to no avail. Trying to get files on a dying disk to no avail, etc, etc. The only time I ever truly needed windows for this kind of stuff was to unlock an Iphone using Itunes.
Tbh it’s just dead easy to give examples because with windows, manufacturers or whoever have to make their product work on the OS, and the drivers are not always up to date, so old they aren’t supported anymore, or can just be a pain to get or configure…while on Linux it can be a community effort, and a lot of stuff is already within the distro you installed so you often don’t have to do much. I am sure people can have the opposite experience though and I know some stuff just doesn’t work on Linux, but really my point is : a lot doesn’t necessarily work on windows either.
Not what you asked but on an OS level, I could also mention people encrypting their pc by accident with bitlocker, windows breaking stuff, update issues, partition issues, and so on… when you spend time on other people issues you really start to notice how much of a mess it can be, far more than people seem to think.
Wow, thanks for all the information! Very fascinating, I think. I enjoyed reading it! :)
Yeah I did not expect to dump so much text 乁(•ิ◡•ั)ㄏ
I did my best to shorten it and tried not being too vague but it’s hard with all the stuff I’ve tinkered with. Keyboard issues have been the weirdest and funniest experience I’ve had of them all I think, while printers are one of the worst.
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No, not really. I believe it is because a lot of us linux users have more understanding of our systems, so we know why a certain outcome happened vs “it just works tm”.
Also I would like to point out something that I have been telling people for years whenever a post like this comes up. Windows and Mac users do the same thing. They constantly overlook bugs, bad design, artificial limitations, and just the overall lack of care when it comes to various details that more community oriented projects cater to. The reason is because of familiarity. Just like many of us will often not see issues with new comers struggles because we have already worked around all of the issues. These users do the same.
At least on Linux you can have some kind of control while on Windows or Mac there is an illusion like “can’t do that, fuck you”, while Linux is like “can do that… will you manage”?
Which inherently makes it so that specific demographics of people will never be able to use it.
Is Linux As Good As We Think It Is?
No, it’s better.
Seriously, when something that I paid for it doesn’t work is annoying when something that I choose to use doesn’t work is somewhat my fault, I think that’s the difference.
I’d clarify that the shear customizability of Linux is optional.
Take a SteamDeck with SteamOS versus a RPi with e.g Debian.
If you “just” play with the SteamDeck and you don’t tinker, well, it “just works”. In most, even though not all, normal situations, e.g plugging a screen, pairing a BT headphone, mouse, keyboard, etc it is solid. It has no problem even while using a compatibility layer like Proton for games themselves made for Windows. It even enable some tinkering thanks to its immutable OS and let the player switch to desktop mode. Not everything works but my personal experience since it’s been out has been pretty much flawless.
Now, take a RPi, with just as stable hardware, with Debian, even stable, and put on it some IoT device, make some weird modifications for it, try a bunch of stuff, remove package, tinker more, chances are it will still work. Tinker more, make stranger modifications to the point it becomes unstable. Is it Linux itself? I’d argue it’s not. I’d argue that instead because we CAN tinker we sometimes do then forget that it’s not the same context as something expected to run without hiccup because it’s been limited to basically the same verified usage.
So… IMHO Linux is even better than it is, we just shouldn’t confuse weird (and important) tinkering with how it can be actually used day to day.
This. I distrohopped for about 4 years. I am now on Bazzite since 4 months ago and I love that it just works.
It’s an operating system. It’s not supposed to be noticed as good or bad. It should stay out of your way. If you ever notice it, it’s doing something wrong.
Thing is, a well configured Linux system will just work, and continue to work for the foreseeable future. You have zero guarantee of this with Windows.
After being in tech for like 30 years, i’d say that every OS sucks, but the way they suck and the intensity of said sucking is very much not the same across them. Linux VERY MUCH has issues, yes, but most of the time they’re in your power to diagnose and fix, in Windows the main troubleshooting advice has remained mostly the same across decades, the 3 R’s, Reboot, Reinstall, Reformat, because many times you just don’t know and CANNOT know what went wrong.
You forgot Read. As in read answers.microsoft.com. And then just give up
Yep, because there’s always the same conclusion there: reinstall Windows.
This is a great point. It is also an issue that I have with certain (not all) users who try linux. Where when things go wrong in Windows and Mac they have no power to do anything and they just give. If something goes wrong in linux they start yelling, complaining, and sometimes harassing maintainers.
I’m in IT too. Recently discussed with the help desk team that we should probably spend less time troubleshooting issues with only the affected device and just re-imaging it.
I am not a massive fan of this since sometimes the fixes are kind of interesting but they take far too long to get to while working around MS’s hidden walls. Mean while our Linux servers and clients are usually pretty damn easy to troubleshoot, documentation is readily available, not to mention it makes sense…
I’m inclined to give Linux more benefit of the doubt than, say, Windows. That’s because of the motives behind it.
Microsoft have a very long history of making design choices in their software that users don’t like, and quite often that’s because it suits their interests more than their customers. They are a commercial business that exists to benefit itself, after all. Same with Apple. Money spoils everything pure, after all. You mention privacy, but that’s just one more example of someone wanting to benefit financially from you - it’s just in a less transparent and more open-ended way than paying them some cash.
Linux, because that monetary incentive is far less, is usually designed simply “to be better”. The developers are often primary users of the software. Sure - sometimes developers make choices that confuses users, but that over-arching driving business interest just isn’t there.
Just this morning I tried to make Outlook on my work laptop to open on startup. I have to find and add a shortcut of Outlook, buried somewhere in the machine, to the startup folder, buried somewhere else in the machine. The startup apps settings menu was just an eclectic list of programs and is of no use at all.
With Mint on my home machine I just go to startup programs settings menu and I can add whatever I want just by pointing it to the right program. It just works.
WIN+R , “shell:startup” in future by the way.
The other list you saw is programs that have added thier own AutoRuns registry keys.
I’m actually kinda surprised that functionality isn’t in the new task manager yet. You can toggle on and off basically all startup items from there, but not add stuff.
XP-7 had this right with a folder in the start menu for startup items, just drag a file or shortcut there and it runs on startup.
XP-7 had this right with a folder in the start menu for startup items, just drag a file or shortcut there and it runs on startup.
It’s the same in 10. This is actually one thing I find obnoxious in Linux, even as a user for 25+ years… menu “shortcuts” aka .desktop files are harder to make and poorly documented.
Does windows 10 have it? I didn’t see it in the start menu of my VM.
It’s hidden by default but it should be there in
C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs\StartUpfor “all users” and%APPDATA%\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs\Startupseparately for each user.
Generally, when things work on windows, it is the effort of whomever made the device or software. Microsoft generally does not develop drivers. However, when things work on GNU/Linux it is the effort of GNU, Linux, or the community. The manufacturer probably did nothing. This simply explains why we are generally relaxed or “give Linux too much benefit of the doubt relative to the “things that just work””.
So fairly comparing a Linux distro to raw windows, Linux is better. When you install a distro, things just work, when you install windows, most stuff do not work and you need to complete setup. Unless you use tools provided by the manufacturer, but then again, it is same story.
Windows works nearly every time any more - I don’t have to do anything during setup. Drivers are automatic during setup.
Not sure where you get this idea from.
My Logitech mouse doesn’t work at all on Linux unless I search for why and go find third-party software for it. Windows sees it as a generic HID and treats it as such. I can go get the Logitech software if I want, but have no need of it. Linux? Nope. Probably the most prolific mouse on the planet and Linux can’t even use it, at all, natively.
On windows it just works.
Now let’s go deploy 300, or 3000 machines.
My logitech mx master 3 works instantly on fedora with all it’s features. I also have various wired and worless keyboards and mouses that work instantly on Fedora.
For same mouse on windows, I need to wait for it to download and install outs drivers.
Maybe you got things confused or are using LinuxFromScratch or something.
Then you must not be very bright. All my Logitech and Razer hardware just works on every Linux distro I jump on while distro hopping.
First of all you’re missing the point.
Drivers are automatic during setup.
That still means third-party drivers, so it’s still not a Windows win but rather a “windows is so ubiquitous that Logitech (or whoever) was forced to release a driver for it”, which is what the comment you’re replying was talking about.
Secondly, bullshit. In my 20 years using Linux I have never, ever, plugged in a mouse that didn’t get immediately recognized and worked as expected. What mouse do you have? You said Logitech, which model? The only thing that I ever needed specialized software on a Logitech mouse was to configure extra buttons or to pair it to a different dongle (both stuffs that also need specialized software only provided by Logitech on Windows)
Weird. My Logitech G502 Lightspeed just plug and plays on my Linux distro. Only thing is that I cannot configure it but I can read the battery w/o additional software unlike the other platform.
Linux is far, far better at handling generic USB devices than Windows. Your inability to plug in a peripheral seems like PEBCAK.
You forgot to mention you use Arch, btw.
No, because I’m not a pretentious twit.
You get your panties in a twist because you have to install Solaar?
It’s a very simple, very functional piece of software Built For Logitech Devices.
All my keyboards & mice are (mostly second hand) Logitech. No problems here.
Not even sure I’ve had to install Solaar with Mint or Ubuntu in the last 10 years.
I have the opposite. Old Logitech bluetooth mouse on W10, Windows will pair with it but next boot it totally will not reconnect, no matter what, unless I delete paired device and re-add it. It was fine on W7. Linux has no issue reconnecting to it.
When I’ve thought about this is in the past I’ve concluded that my expectations of Linux are actually higher than Windows or Mac. It’s given me the expectation that if something doesn’t work the way I want it then it will be possible to make it do that, whereas with other operating systems I have been more inclined to just accept a limitation and move on.
E x a c t l y! On Windows/Mac, you’re less inclined to be charitable, because most of the time you’re facing down artificially-imposed limitations on how you can interact with your own machine. They seem to say “You’re too dumb to be allowed to mess with that,” which is a tolerable slight if it Just Works every time… But when it doesn’t, ohhh boy…
Recent Linux convert here. Had some small background with it due to use at work (through WSL, unfortunately 😅). When Windows became too overbearing and intrusive for my own taste, decided to take a plunge and created a dual-boot setup with Bazzite (of course on my private machine). It was honestly refreshing to see stuff run with the same (or sometimes even better) performance.
This short anecdote now leads me to the conclusion; is it as good as we think it is?
Imo: hell fuckin’ yeah. It gets the job done and respects me as an end-user (with the trade-off of “some manual work might be required”).
Also, as a side-note: I live in the EU; I grew tired with an overbearing, salesman/rapist-like mentality of MS (and Windows, by extension) while reaping benefits of some modicum of privacy regulations. I cannot even begin to fathom how fucked the situation is where ppl don’t have these protections to rely on.
Send diff to their lists.
It depends on who you ask. If you ask this to a M$ refugee, they will praise it. If you ask a *BSD user, they will bitch about it.
Linux to me is just an optional substitute of an OS, but it has yet to make it my primary day-to-day use. Linux isn’t going to make the problems I get aggravated with like the verification-hell we deal with, go away. It’s going to happen on both Windows or Linux regardless.
I have more patience when I give any laptop I get Linux, than I ever will should I decide to make Linux a primary OS of choice on my primary desktop machine. Because Linux does give me the whole ‘works out of the box’ feel with laptops than Windows would when it comes to driver hunting and I’m talking with old laptops, not newer ones where all of that is currently provided.
I think most of us have a good idea of the benefits and drawbacks of Linux/Windows/Apple.
I have a Windows machine for media production, because Linux doesn’t support all the software I need for media production. I use Linux for absolutely everything else, because it’s better for literally everything else. In truth, a MacBook Pro would be better for media production but they’re too expensive.
To be pedantic (but I think it matters): it’s the software companies that don’t support Linux, not the other way around.
More than pedantic. It’s truth reversed to conceal motives.
