The atmosphere is so heated, and the statements are getting more and more extreme. Let’s just assume Harris wins the election. After a campaign like this, how could you ever have a normal relationship with your pro-Trump neighbor/father-in-law/Uncle/Barber or what ever again?
After a campaign like this, how could you ever have a normal relationship with your pro-Trump neighbor/father-in-law/Uncle/Barber or what ever again?
You’re assuming those relationships survived the 2020 election. For many, myself included, they didn’t.
I was willing to overlook 2016, but after 4 years of horror culminating in a (failed) coup, and those people still supporting him, I just cut them out of my life.
That’s understandable. It’s also, in microcosm, the reason your country is so divided. If you want to continue living in a democracy, you’re all going to have to talk - and listen - to each other.
Yes, it’s our fault that fear-addicted racists have refused to listen to reason for decades and particularly during the last eight years when an obviously unfit clown was committing scandal after scandal. We should be inviting cultists who refuse to listen to us back into our lives and calmly discuss why it is good for the country to be a Christofascist dictatorship.
I don’t disagree at all. However, that is a whole lot easier said than done when one side is so far gone in an alternate reality of lies and hate.
We’re going to need a mass cult de-programming or something. I just don’t know how we come back from where we are.
The usual way to fix these things is civil war. Don’t worry, you won’t have to start it, the racists and fascists will do it for you. And then they’ll get annihilated, like always.
This is because they may be loud, aggressive, greedy, hateful and boastful which all help them start and ramp up wars. But they are also stupid, cowardly, irrational, week minded and a minority, which make them loose these wars.
What you think about them, they think about you. They’re not evil, they’re not idiots. If they lived nextdoor you would probably find each other very pleasant.
I just don’t know how we come back from where we are.
It looks pretty simple from where I’m standing. You talk to them. You listen to them. You find things you agree on, beginning with the smaller things. They’re not automatons, they’re people.
Update. This avalanche of supposedly tolerant progressives who are openly against the idea of talking to their fellow citizens proves to me that America deserves everything it gets. Good luck.
Naw, maybe you’re not queer and not being called a pedo, or followed or having your job threatened by a former president. It’s not my job to raise an adult right and free of hate, I have one child. I don’t need to burn myself out giving Republicans 3rd and 4th chances to be decent people.
Yankee here, and fully agree with what you said. Unfortunately, empathy seems to be an increasingly lost art in this country and it only seems to get worse as each side continues to dehumanized the other.
They’re not evil, they’re not idiots.
Hard disagree.
What you think about them, they think about you.
True, but irrelevant.
They’re not evil, they’re not idiots.
Hard disagree - they have to be at least one of those things to be MAGA, usually both.
If they lived nextdoor you would probably find each other very pleasant.
Hah! They DO live next door and I most certainly don’t find them pleasant.
They’re not evil, they’re not idiots.
No, they’re both. They know they’re spreading hate, and they find it funny.
Let’s assume that they are not bad people. In order to bring them to sanity, it would take an ungodly amount of pressure, and they would have to have no connections back to the cult. If there is even a single connection all the effort would be for naught.
They are not where they are, due to logic or empathy, so you can’t use logic or empathy to argue them out of it. I lost my entire extended family over this.
Your first sentence, yes I agree. The next two, not so much. In my town in 2020 we had groups of these chuds roaming around downtown, armed, hunting for “antifa,” meaning anyone wearing black or looking slightly punk. Some of them really do want to shoot us with impunity.
But yeah, it’s also my parents, who probably wouldn’t turn me into the gestapo, but the cognitive dissonance where they simultaneously believe I’m their family but I’m also “the enemy within” doesn’t seem sustainable. At some point, it’s got to be one or the other. Getting them to agree on small things hasn’t changed their overall loyalty to the party, their disdain for Dems, or our relationship.
You are dead wrong. I was raised in a deeply conservative lifestyle with conservative friends, family, and neighbors. I retired from a career steeped in conservatives, working shoulder to shoulder with them daily. The vast majority of the people I’ve known through the years have been conservative. I’ve been talking and listening this whole fucking time, trying to move them toward reason, naively thinking they would someday grow emotionally, become empathetic or introspective. A conservative is simply not able to experience these things. Empathy and introspection are not conservative traits.
Conservatives will not budge an inch. The more one attempts to reason with them, the more angry they become. If you aren’t careful, you will end up on their enemies list just for being a suspected non-conservative.
I appreciate your friendly approach, as it seems to come from a place of kindness and empathy, but that capacity for empathy does not exist in a conservative.
Never in history has fascism been cured by just talking and listening. Historically, the cure for fascism is only delivered by force.
“What you think about them, they think about you”
No, this is precisely the issue. Any leftist worth their salt can’t fucking stand conservatives and YET we will still protect their basic human rights and accept them into a collective society.
Conservatives on the other hand are perpetrating violence every single day against leftists and minorities they LOUDLY do not accept into a collective society. They deny abortions for women who are on the verge of death, they advocate for draconian health care policy that massively raises the suicide rates of trans kids because they hate trans kids and they believe deep down in their racism with an unshakable fervor that makes their meager spiritual practice of christianity look sad and pathetic in comparison.
It is far past the point of having a debate with rightwing conservatives, what is left is to intimidate them into shutting up, drowning out their voices and laughing at their tiny hateful visions of the universe.
The social fabric of the US is being ripped apart by conservative white men because they can’t handle how scary using pronouns is and frankly the solution is to activate everybody else, not humor these people yet again with another discussion they are going to approach in a fundamentally disengenous way.
I know what you mean, when I put to nazis and bigots, through various civil discourses, the most agreeable and cordial justifications for their systematic capture and extermination or deportation, to my great surprise, they never acquiesce to any form of intellectual exchange, regarding the legitimate concerns I raise.
Its the most bizzare thing because, just previously, they’d been more than happy to declare thus and so the most polite and reasonable argumentations supporting the very same thing for other people. More so, they many were lamenting how unfair it was for them to be denied the opportunity to pontificate on such matters, just a short time previously.
I’m sure you can only imagine my surprise when they did this, after their claims of wanting nothing more than “civil discourse.”
I get where you’re coming from. Unfortunately, it’s not really that simple. Sometimes a relationship is so toxic that there’s no way to restore the basic trust that’s needed in order to function as a unit. This is no different. Pre-Trump, we might have been able to talk and salvage things; at this point, they’re just as broken as a relationship full of cheating and domestic abuse. My fear is that the only way forward is breakup (ie civil war) or some other equally deep trauma.
It’s hard to listen to the illiterate.
If you want democracy to survive you should be intolerant of intolerance.
I’m not listening to Nazis so fuck off.
In all seriousness, how does one listen to and communicate with people who have slid so far down a misinformation hole to a place where science is fake, every expert who disagrees is part of a global conspiracy, and the only people they listen to literally can’t stop lying?>
I still talk to and value my mother, and believe she is a good person, but she’s fallen prey to insidious propaganda and believes that Trump is just a flawed tool for God and the Republican platform is the only way to save the world from the forces of evil.
As an aside, my favorite conspiracy theory was how all the governments of the world were collaborating on the COVID lockdowns so they could control the people and take power. The governments capable of national lockdowns could take power. 🤦🏼♂️
you’re all going to have to talk - and listen - to each other
We do not tolerate intolerance.
I don’t need to talk to those who are openly racist. I’m not talking about some political double speak. I have trump voters in my community that openly use racist slurs in their discussion of immigrants, and minorities in town.
You are the company you keep, and those folks aren’t part of my life. Trump was just the vector to illuminate their position that was previously kept in hushed tones behind doors.
No. It’s called the Paradox of Tolerance. “Discussing” rationally with the intolerant only serves to justify their position in their own eyes and thereby embolden them.
In other words, putting up with them simply gives them more ink
Turning the other cheek only works if the person doing the slapping has a sense of shame. Trump and his ilk have long since proven they have none.
I don’t remember who said it first, but I’ve linked it before: there’s no paradox if tolerance is a social contact rather than an ethic. If someone breaks the terms of the contact, then the other party is not bound by it any more.
Yeah. Although what if half of the country is intolerant? What then? Divide the country into two?
I’m not sure it’s half, maybe half of the voting population but that’s usually only around 40-60% of the total population.
Then you remove the nazis from your country by any means necessary. I’m sick of people talking about tolerance in the face of genocidal bigotry.
Calm your pits Beka.
Nobody should be advocating for a Final Solution.
People were this divided over FDR. My next door neighbor only ever referred to FDR as that “gimpy legged sonofabitch”. This was in the 1970’s.
If the good guys win the election, we can start to heal this if we choose to. But only if we take the complaints of everyone seriously. Ignoring the needs and political power of white men is what got us into this cluster.
If the bad guys win, start looking for allies.
What complaint am I supposed to be taking seriously exactly?
The one where trans people are invading women’s spaces to rape them?
The one where immigrants are all violent criminals who eat dogs?
Or maybe the one where women are getting abortions instead of using birth control and should not be allowed to make decisions about their own bodies?
I am a white man. I don’t care about the complaints of white men that boil down to “I’ve been on top for so long that any attempt at equity feels like a threat to that position”.
Most of them are hurting in one way or another. This particular round it’s mostly the financial, mental and emotional aftershocks of the pandemic amplified by greedy people coming up with new and inventive ways to take money from the poor and give it to the rich.
But you need to first hear and understand their pain to have any hope of getting through to them.
They’ve been told over and over through misinformation that immigrants, people with disabilities, loose/secular/independent women, people of different religious beliefs, skin colour, whatever else are the reason for their suffering, and that they should be afraid of them. That initial pain is channeled from fear to anger to hate to dehumanization to… “final solutions”.
They want Trump in because they’ve been convinced that he’s powerful and “Trump will fix it.” ‘It’ being whatever the pain is.
The reality is of course a much different story of basically just greedy people distracting them while they steal their lunch money, and narcissists that will do anything to gain ever more power.
But if you want to unprogram someone from that you need to hear their pain. What was that thing that was used by the greedy and narcissistic to channel into hate.
It’s mostly hurt/hurting people who are voting for Trump. To turn them around you need to hear their pain.
If Trump said:
Then you remove the nazis from your country by any means necessary
We would know what he meant. You are saying the same genocidal thing.
Supporting Trump is no different than supporting Hitler. I find it very easy to cut nazis out of my life.
One side wants me dead, there are no worthy discussions to be had.
To the many people here saying (apparently with pride), “I just cut them all out”: You are making the problem worse.
Honestly, if this is really your attitude to your fellow citizens, you deserve what you get. They have a vote.
Fuck that, and fuck you. They made their bed. Lying in it is the natural consequence.
Naw, you are not owed sex or friendship.
This feels like if erectile dysfunction could talk.
Can you elaborate on this?
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That’s been a growing issue for the last 15 years. The answer is community groups but they haven’t been very successful.
I don’t want a normal relationship with my Trump loving neighbor. He and his racist wife can go fuck themselves. Their signs and banners told me who they are. I’m choosing to listen
Nothing to get back to when you don’t pay attention in the first place
There hasn’t been any normal for 8 years plus now. Somewhere between 30 and 45% of the population are openly trying for fascism.
Realistically it’s only a matter of when unless we make some pretty damned sweeping changes which they are going to fight tooth and nail.
We need to unrig the judicial system. We need to unrig the voting system. We need to put guardrails up on media disinformation. And we need to start holding some of these fucking politicians accountable for openly lying in campaign. We need to roll back the dictator privileges they managed to shove in at the last moment for the president. We need to hold some of these oligarchs accountable for crimes.
They should lock Musk up for a month. Go ahead and have him shit himself that he’s not above the law.
I don’t know who the next Republican president will be. But you can bet money there’s going to be plenty of bloodshed once they decide to do whatever they want with complete and total immunity.
What you see in the news and on social media doesn’t paint a true picture of what daily life is like here for people. Most of Trump’s supporters aren’t the hateful bigots that the Internet makes them out to be, they’re just convinced that he’s the lesser of the 2 evils. This is why you see that his rallies are empty and he’s still polling at ~47%.
Most of the deepest Trump cult fanatics live in communities where that is more prevalent, like rural Alabama, so if you don’t live where they live, you just don’t really encounter them. And if you do live in those areas, you’re already used to the rampant racism because it’s always been there.
So me and my immigrant wife will still go visit my pro-trump uncle for his annual pig roast, because he’s not a bad person, he’s just a moron. I’ll still call my conservative mother every week because she’s not threatening to kill me for voting blue, she’s just consumed too much anti-Kamala propaganda. My religious sister is still welcome to visit because even though she’s an idiot, my nieces are freakin adorable and I love them.
I assume you’re not in the crosshair of Trump policy once he gets elected? Because for some people threats to their life and voting Trump are about the same thing.
You continue to tolerate your family tolerating and even choosing hate and bigotry, even if they themselves don’t exhibit them to your face. Your uncle IS a bad person.
So say they cut their family off and now have no support network. Now what?
You continue living without having to entertain hateful bigots? It’s worked out pretty great for me.
There’s a middle ground. Not talking won’t convince anyone, either.
But realizing that certain people are bad people because they express their values through certain votes is important.
E. g. you can not attend the roast and cite their political views as the reason, especially with the recent (and constant) hate on immigrants. That doesn’t mean they’re cut off.
Don’t worry, there’s the insurrection and riots next.
Depends on who wins. They’re only insurrections and riots when brown people and leftists do them.
The next J6/Charleston will be covered more favorably than the '64 March on Washington was, now that Bezos et al have shown their colors.
My wife is predicting a civil war. I can’t help but wonder what our role will be in it.
Any countries who are not sliding into fascism that would be interested in hiring two well-educated adults? I really love Germany, and despite some German heritage, it’s too far removed to be of value in gaining citizenship or a passport. We visited Germany in the spring of 2016 (and heard, several times, “WHAT is going on in your country?”) and she loved it, too.
How far away are they really? German rules about that are fairly lenient and courts have expanded them a bit recently.
Maybe any other EU country you could qualify for? Ireland is often a route some US citizens take - once you have their passport you are free to move wherever you want.
Pretty sure my great great grandparents were German. I’d have to double check that. My grandmother’s maiden name is pretty German Jewish, but I can’t recall at the moment whether she was a first generation immigrant or not. I did some research on this a few years back, and I would have to look at my notes to confirm.
It’s a little confusing because there’s a actually some German heritage on both sides - the grandmother above was my father’s mother, but there’s some on my mother’s side, too.
Americans are obsessed with genealogy, and I spent some time on it during the pandemic, so I can tell you I’m some odd fraction German, which you usually can’t get to, like 5/8ths, because it comes from both families.
My wife is predicting a civil war.
I don’t think the police or the military are particularly divided on who to support. A coup maybe.
But liberals won’t be putting up a fight once the media starts labeling them Hamas/Hezbollah and you can’t post your pink pussy hat on Instagram without getting put on a list.
Any countries who are not sliding into fascism that would be interested in hiring two well-educated adults?
There’s always Ireland. Mexico is looking pretty good right now, given the flood of cheap imports and the resurgent manufacturing sector.
Here in germany we’re sliding into facism as well, again x.x
Our second most voted party here is super disgustingly far-right and gets more and more votes each election - even tho multiple states declared them unconstitutional and there are talks to ban the whole party because it’s a danger to democracy and our constitution.
The most voted party is conservative-right and at least by name based in Christianity. They see themselves more in the center, but tend to be a bit to the right from it, at least in my opinion. And some of the top politicians there are saying some really disgusting right shit as well. The party isn’t really fascist, but populistic and a bit right-leaning, known for corruption, power-hungry)
Therefore I think germany might not be the best choice if you want to flee facism
(Disclaimer: Constitution = Grundgesetz. Please don’t nitpick that our constitution is technically not a constitution. Thanks)
Yeah I saw that about Germany. Unfortunately, if even Germany is sliding that way, it’s hard to imagine anywhere else not doing the same…
Oh, that’s easy; we don’t! Every four years, the fabric of our society frays and tears a little more, while our politicians either exploit our divisions or attempt to repair them without making any changes to the material conditions or systemic problems that create these fractures, because fixing these underlying issues would upset the handful of billionaires that actually control our government! But there’s a new Fast & Furious movie every two or three years, so it balances out.
because fixing these underlying issues would upset the handful of billionaires that actually control our government
And how exactly are they supposed to do that without a super majority that is impossible with the population continuing to elect MAGA Republicans?
There is no bipartisan possibilities. No one from the right will step across the aisle to make constitutional amendments or impeach corrupt SCOTUS justices or fascist party members. And they’d need 1/3rd of them to do so for the authority to fix anything.
There is no moving on. Nothing can be fixed. Voters should have woken up after Jan 6th, but Republicans still gained seats in the mid term elections.
There is no legal path to fixing this, we can only do our best to bail water and keep them from sinking the ship.
History didn’t start in 2016. The Democrats were happy to cozy up to the Silicone Valley tech giants, even as they developed into monopolies whose products gave users the very brain-poisoning that delivered Trump. They were happy to prioritize Wall Street bailouts over homeowners’ bailouts after the subprime mortgage crises, even if meant their constituents lost their homes. They’ve been happy to sideline or undermine anyone who dares run to their left, from Bernie Sanders to Rashida Tlaib.
The Democrats are not well-meaning, helpless progressives that just can’t get anything done because of America’s byzantine political structure. They have actively stopped any significant changes to the status quo in order to keep their donors happy. They’ve spent decades deluding themselves into thinking they could somehow improve conditions for the working class without demanding concessions from the billionaire class, even as the largest wealth transfer in history, from the lowest income Americans to the highest income Americans, was taking place. They may not be as vile or hateful as the Republicans, but they are just as responsible for America’s decay.
Yup, but they’re all we got at the moment.
Yup. We gotta vote for them this election, but replace them in the next. Otherwise, we’re just hitting snooze on fascism for another 4 years.
There’s miles of difference between the damage that corporate stooges do versus a literal fascist movement. If this were the 2000s, yeah, I’d be with you all the way, both sides pillaging our futures and all that.
But you’re focused on that asshole stealing your catalytic converter down the street, when you’re actively getting mugged and curb stomped, here and now.
There is a very real possibility of this country descending into fascist dictatorship, and/or huge loss of life from an ensuing Civil War.
Right now, the Dems are at least united like they haven’t been in recent memory because they finally understand what’s at stake. It is absolutely infuriating that you guys are still nitpicking over comparatively trivial stuff compared to cataclysm.
This isn’t hyperbole, this is literally what they have been repeatedly caught expressly trying to accomplish. Yes, it seems like it’s crazy to consider that they might actually achieve their goals. But with everything we know, Trump is still very likely to win this election thanks to people like you who can’t seem to prioritize the violent muggers trying to kill you, over the guy stealing your catalytic converter.
What about my original comment led you to believe I thought they were equivalent? As I said, Republicans are vile, hateful, and exploiting our political divisions for power. But the Democrats are just as responsible for the material conditions that have allowed facism to flourish, and demanding accountability and change for that isn’t nitpicking. If the Democrats don’t stop being corporate stooges, this doesn’t end if Trump is defeated; it ends when another fascist finally wins.
Not only that, but if they fix the problems that they used to get your votes, they can’t use them again next election, and we can’t have that so at most you get a pittance of “fixes” while they just blame the other side for blocking it and then the other side does it with a few of their issues. And we’ll keep voting for them too because A) who else? B) the other guy is worse, and C) this time they really will fix everything they continually run on. Any day now…
This has been the norm since 2016. Until the GOP unilaterally rejects Trumpism, this will be how it is every four years.
I still can’t look you people (Americans) in the face from the last dozen horrible things you’ve collectively done.
How can you ever let your guard down around this maniac society, let alone go back to normal?
Living in the interior of the stolen lands, what normal do you even think there is to offer? Endless towns build on nothing but walmarts and jails, having displaced any culture of value generations ago.
And which country are you from?
Right? How does anyone make that statement about people today “living in stolen lands”?
Speaking as an American, I hate how our government runs, there are tons of issues with it, and I do what I can’t to help fix it. Like the majority of us are not happy, but we have not collectively done these things, most of the terrible things that have happened in America are the machinations of a wealthy elite who have been able to shape voting districts and policy thanks to continually laxing regulations and unfettered capitalism.
I was just born here, I didn’t make this place. This place isn’t what I want it to be. Just line any other country, we are all just people trying to live and get something out of life. With the way the education system is here most people don’t even realize how ass backwards things are because “that’s how it’s always been” for them. It’s upsetting. But it doesn’t make them bad people, just naive usually. This is why things like intersectionality and critical race theory are so important and this is why the far right in this country is pushing against them. The issues in America boil down to race and class based inequality, intentional defunding of public programs, and then miseducation of the populous on these issues and how they actually affect everyone. I promise you those of us who understand all this are doing everything we can do reverse course. Personally everything happening here weighs on me heavily and I often forget to enjoy what’s right in front of me because the big picture is so scary. It’s stressful as fuck.
We… don’t? Have you not been watching American news for the last… 9 years? I don’t speak with my family because me being trans is not fully accepted by them. I don’t really want to associate with anyone who is okay with increasing trans suicides via politics. I moved from North Carolina to Oregon to be in a queer friendly state, and I don’t regret it one bit. And I have an appointment to get my passport tomorrow… just in case. I don’t know if this country can be fixed. People talk about getting along with our neighbors or meeting in the middle, but I don’t know how to get along with people who wish I didn’t exist.
And I have an appointment to get my passport tomorrow… just in case.
I wish I could say come to Germany, but things are looking grim over here too :(
I do not know of any not-grim countries right now
“Getting along with your neighbors” has moved the right more right… and the left… more right. That center isn’t what it used to be.
That and the “we don’t talk about politics” bs… In my head I always think “Why? Because you’re embarrassed of your political beliefs?”
an appointment to get my passport
You can’t immigrate to another country with just passport and a smile. So unless you’ve spent the last year applying for immigration visas, you’re staying for a while.
You actually can visit Canada as a US citizen with just a passport. So in an emergency, I could cross over in a rush. But mostly I am worried that Trump will say you can’t change your gender marker on passports. So I’m preempting that with this passport application.
you don’t. you believe them when they tell you who they are and remove them from your life.
Very easy to hate. But it’s part of the cycle.
It’s not hate to cut horrible people out of your life. You get to pick who you let into your universe. Be picky.
It isn’t hate. It’s leaving the evil, cruel, and/or misinformed alone.
Nah, I cut my parents out of my life entirely due to the racism they have allowed to grow and fester around them in the last few years. I’m completely done with it. Not giving them any reason to think it okay or forgivable.
my dad was spouting trump shit. I don’t know if he was legit or just trying to get a rise out of me, but fuck that. il told him “I don’t associate with trump supporters, so fix that or move on. you raised me better than that, stop drinking Kool aid.”
Or, do what a disturbing number of people have done and make them the centrepiece of your entire life.
Posters all over your house, stickers and flags all over your mobility scooter, hats, T-shirts, the lot.
One of our neighbors had a MAGA collar for their dog…THEIR DOG. Why do they need to drag their DOG into this? He was a good boy. (Was, because the dog passed away from cancer a year or two ago.)
I think it’s fantastic because know it is very clear who I need to exclude from my life.
Honestly I’m as agoraphobic as they come so, since I hardly ever leave my residence, I find it quite easy to forget that it’s an election year, aside from many of the news outlets and media posts dictating it. My life outside of the internet has hardly any political interference.
Yes I still vote, but I keep my political beliefs to myself, but As Marcus Aurelius said, “You always own the option of having no opinion. There is never any need to get worked up or to trouble your soul about things you can’t control”
I take a lot of solace in that. I know certain things and have certain opinions but I am absolutely not a politician and it’s not something I’ll wreck my soul over. Life is short enough as it is.
