• UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml
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    2 days ago

    A week ago I was in line to check out and there was a young woman in a hijab. When she turned to help me I saw her entire face and hands (all I could see really) had acid burns all over.

    The paradox of tolerance will never be something I struggle with once The Fall happens. Regardless for whichever religion seeks to lynch me.

  • irotsoma@lemmy.world
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    1 day ago

    Satire is a necessary way to call out impropriety in Democratic society. The humor softens the blow of the reality of horrible acts and makes less horrible but still bad acts easier to understand. As long as it’s not saying things that are just totally without merit or using it purely to spread hate, it should be staunchly defended regardless of who is offended by it.

    Example of bad satire is something like a cartoon of an LGBTQ+ person going to a psychiatrist and the psychiatrist saying it’s a mental illness and their head explodes. This is pushing the narrative that being gay is something to be cured and that gay people just can’t accept it. This can be considered satire, but like any type of speech it’s stating something designed to harm others. Satire is meant to over-exaggerate a problem, not make up a problem that doesn’t actually exist for the express purpose of hate.

      • MDCCCLV@lemmy.ca
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        18 hours ago

        Social ostracization or ridicule is an appropriate response to bad statements, not violence

      • irotsoma@lemmy.world
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        3 hours ago

        No. I don’t support the death penalty for any crimes except in circumstances where secure imprisonment is impossible and the criminal is a serious physical danger to others. I said defend satire, not punish hate speech disguised as satire which is another subject on how to do that.

    • triptrapper@lemmy.world
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      2 days ago

      I’m sure there are folks here who have listened to a lot more Sam Harris than I have, but I’ve listened to several audiobooks and probably 40-50 hours of his podcast. He has some smart things to say about neuroscience and mindfulness, but my god he has some toxic, middle-school-ass takes on Islam. I haven’t heard that quote before, but I’m not surprised he said it. He’s Ben Shapiro with a PhD who makes deliberately obtuse, reductive, bad faith statements about Islam and Muslims.

      For the record, I’m a white atheist. I think religion has been the source of immeasurable violence in the world. I don’t think anyone should be shot over something they say or draw, but to declare “end of moral analysis” is ignorant.

    • richieadler@lemmy.world
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      23 hours ago

      Well, he may have a point there, bit this is the same guy who promotes racial screening in airports in spite of repeated refutations of the usefulness of such measures by a security expert, so…

      • intensely_human@lemm.ee
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        22 hours ago

        I’ve listened to maybe 10-15 hours of Sam Harris and I’ve never heard him say that. Can you source that?

  • Tedesche@lemmy.world
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    1 day ago

    I think most people would agree with the following: even if you feel the cartoon was in poor taste or was “punching down,” the shooting was a terrorist act that just served to reinforce the worst stereotypes about Muslims and—ironically—the offending cartoon itself.

    Opinions can vary about the cartoon, but that’s the point of defending satire and free speech; what’s completely indefensible is violence that clearly isn’t in the service of self-defense. People who quibble about the definition of self-defense and even skirt the idea that the terrorists in this incident had a right to do what they did, in my opinion, are likely either sophomoric contrarians or bad faith actors intentionally trying to muddy the waters, akin to some far-right militia members on conservative subreddits.

  • satans_methpipe@lemmy.world
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    22 hours ago

    Murdering humans over a drawing is a sensitive topic for me. Please do not expect civility when discussing ancient barbaric pre-scientific belief systems.

    • Crikeste@lemm.ee
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      19 hours ago

      By that same thought process, don’t expect civility when you’re making fun of and disparaging people’s religions.

      🤷🏼‍♂️

      Just saying, you might want to think about what your advocating for and the hypocrisy behind it.

      • satans_methpipe@lemmy.world
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        18 hours ago

        Adults who are afraid of sky Grandpa are never civil. I think your statement is intended as a roundabout threat.

  • JaggedRobotPubes@lemmy.world
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    2 days ago

    I don’t have any issue or opinion or dog in the race with the prophet Muhammed, but those idiots made it important to say “muhammed the prophet is a giant cunt who should be laughed at and get a pie in the face” every now and then just to remind everybody how getting to talk works.

  • NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world
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    2 days ago

    My opinion is that satire must hurt. Otherwise it may have no impact, then it is nothing else than cheap comedy. But it is possible that it hurts too much, so that some people cannot endure it. Society has a duty to protect the weak as well as the artists. It is a narrow line.

  • BonesOfTheMoon@lemmy.world
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    2 days ago

    I’m religious, and I think that people should be absolutely free to satirize religion if they want to. What someone else believes isn’t my affair, I definitely think my faith has lots of room for improvement from an organizational perspective, and there are plenty of religious ideas I think are toxic and wrong. Why shouldn’t we have nuance and differing opinions? Why should anyone have the right to hurt others through their religious practices? We should be criticizing those things and calling them out and trying to make them stop, whether we practice religion or not. I think the treatment of women and queer people by a great deal of religious groups is wrong and should be criticized. I don’t think government and religion should be intertwined at all. Just because I practice in a faith doesn’t mean my faith is the authority on anything, but universally we should not be hurting others.

  • Shardikprime@lemmy.world
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    1 day ago

    According to collectivistic ideology, anything can be a provocation and you are always a victim.

    If so, anything anyone did is justifiable to make you angry or have any other negative emotional response, because as a victim, you are powerless.

    Not only that, you, as a person, are indistinguishable from an animal as, like them, you are utterly incapable of controlling your thoughts, feelings and impulses. In essence, you have no control over your life.

    Ergo it follows you are absolutely allowed to do anything in your power to stop the thing that makes you have a negative emotional response to stop existing.

    You are, erm, justified.

    But just you, not the others, those are assholes

  • Fedegenerate@lemmynsfw.com
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    2 days ago

    Satire should be free. Hate speech should not. People shouldn’t be killed for either. I don’t particularly cry when bigots die though.

    All that said, there’s reasons some jokes just aren’t worth telling. There’s times and spaces, and for some jokes there’s neither and that’s ok.

    • SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world
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      21 hours ago

      Yeah but what is hate speech when it comes to religion? For hardcore religious people blasphemy is hate speech. Like when that French teacher just showed drawings of Muhammed in historical context it was enough reason for a Muslim to kill him.

      • Fedegenerate@lemmynsfw.com
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        19 hours ago

        If you don’t know what hate speech is I don’t know what to tell you. Or are you doing the equivalent of the “what is a woman” nonsense?

        I made a few statements.

        1. Satire is fine. Agree/ disagree? I think we agree

        2. Hate speech is not. Agree/ disagree? I don’t know if we agree

        3. Neither should come with a death penalty? Agree disagree? I hope we agree

        4. I personally don’t cry over dead bigots. A personal statement. Undebatable unless you want to call me a liar.

        5. There’s a time and space for jokes. For some jokes there’s neither. Agree/ disagree? I don’t know if we agree.

        • Oderus@lemmy.world
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          18 hours ago

          I think his response was clear. Hate speech can be twisted into anything you want as it’s just an opinion.

          • Fedegenerate@lemmynsfw.com
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            18 hours ago

            I thought they were disagreeing with point two, I don’t want to jump to conclusions though. Social media is full of “so you think [extreme nonsense here]” I am trying to be better than that.

            I dunno. I was around for the “it’s PC culture gone mad” position from yonder year. Their comment was similar to arguments made back then about racism, transphobia, homophobia, any protected class really.

    • Sprocketfree@sh.itjust.works
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      1 day ago

      Is making fun of a religion hate speech? Like religion is a choice to embrace so its kind of weird that it’s a protected class, despite the pilgrims fleeing it.

      • richieadler@lemmy.world
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        23 hours ago

        Is making fun of a religion hate speech?

        Many believers seem to think so. Then again, they think it’s “hate speech” to show the contradictions of their “holy” book, so…

      • GrumpyDuckling@sh.itjust.works
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        24 hours ago

        It depends. If they have blatant hypocrisy and hatred towards others or they’re manipulating laws based on their weird beliefs, or using their religion as an excuse to abuse people then yeah, it’s open season on that. If you’re just making fun of someone because of their funny looking hat, then you’re just being an AH.

      • Fedegenerate@lemmynsfw.com
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        22 hours ago

        As in most things: it depends. Your question is too broad for an answer lacking nuance. But why did you ask?

    • MDCCCLV@lemmy.ca
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      17 hours ago

      You don’t think a sovereign country can have a state religion if everyone in the country is part of that religion and wants it that way?

      • darth_grunkus@lemmy.world
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        11 hours ago

        There are exactly zero countries that are so homogenous that you can say that literally everyone is of the same religion.

    • NOT_RICK@lemmy.world
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      2 days ago

      More dehumanizing rhetoric is definitely not the answer. The attackers were human, as reprehensible as their actions were.