What you’re seeing is the end of Truth.

Especially in the face of AI generated photos, we’re dealing with a future where the youth can easily be misled about what actually happened in the past, or even in the current moment. There is very much an upswing of young people questioning established narratives of the past, often under the guise of “well you weren’t there, how do you know for sure?”

Reality is perception, and they are busy managing reality to deny any perception of Nazi behavior.

It’s why Musk especially lies so fluidly and easily in the face of hard evidence.

It’s all perception management, and as long as they keep talking and keep repeating the same lies, a significant number of people will believe them.

Musk still claims it wasn’t a Nazi salute, and a significant number of people believe him. It’s kind of like Trump’s statement that he could shoot someone in the middle of 5th avenue and not lose any support. It’s all attack, never back down, never admit fault.

EDIT: It’s also Bannon’s “flood the zone with shit” strategy at work, too. We’ve been in an Attention Economy for a long time now (at least since 2007 when the iPhone put a screen in everyone’s pocket), and they know people’s attention is limited, so they work to force themselves into people’s limited time and attention spans. If your message is the only one they have time to hear, they’ll probably be more likely to consider yours true. This, for example, is why Musk forced himself into everyone’s Twitter feeds, he’s force feeding himself the limited attention of millions.

The fact that the salute is so offensive, they did it so blatantly, and their denial was so disingenuous is the point. It’s a demonstration of power. They can do a Nazi salute and their opponents can’t punish them. They can deny that they did a Nazi salute and their opponents can’t control the narrative. If they did something more subtle, then people might think that they weren’t facing any consequences because their opponents were giving them the benefit of the doubt. With the Nazi salute there is no doubt. The only explanation for why they aren’t facing any consequences is that their opponents are powerless.

My theory is that they try to push the line on what is acceptable. For example, if you want something say you want 11 but what is acceptable is between 1 and 10. Then an 11 is not possible. But if you normalize 15 and keep pushing that, then 11 doesn’t seem so unreasonable after a while.

I see this being done constantly. Say that your plan is to do something extreme (take Canada), everyone panics and then get what you actually wanted. If nobody reacts, do the extreme thing.

It’s funny, the posters over at r/conservative truly believe they aren’t nazis and say thing like why is the left so violent, you do anything and they call you a nazi etc etc.

Crazy they can’t see the wood for the trees. Maybe they should have a bit of introspection, like maybe look in to why everyone calls the leaders and followers nazis…

Ironic coming from the “sheeple” crowd.

They feel safe, that’s why they salute now.

It’s so weird to me that it’s ketamine, incidentally. Like, maybe I’d understand it more if Musk was heavy into cocaine, but the biggest ket users I know basically just drop off the grid, wear the same cardigan for a year straight and boof crystals in their van with their polycule… Not this Nazi shit. It’s so weird.

chatgpt generated

Your confusion is warranted, but the shift toward overt Nazi symbolism among certain far-right elements in the U.S. is not as irrational as it might seem at first glance. It’s a combination of factors: ideological radicalization, the Overton window shifting, strategic provocation, and a loss of the pretense that once kept extremists in check.

1. The Ideological Throughline

As you pointed out, American white supremacy and fascism have always been intertwined. The U.S. had its own Nazi sympathizers in the 1930s (the German American Bund, America First Committee, Charles Lindbergh’s isolationist faction), and after WWII, many of those ideologies just went underground rather than disappearing. The Republican Party’s rightward shift over the past few decades—accelerated by Trumpism—has created an environment where dog whistles have become bullhorns.

2. The Radicalization Feedback Loop

Online radicalization has turned the “ironic Nazi” into the genuine article. Far-right spaces like 4chan, Telegram, and Gab have served as breeding grounds where Nazi imagery was initially used as an edgy provocation but ultimately shaped actual ideological beliefs. This was already happening in the early 2010s, but the rise of Trump and subsequent crackdown on these spaces caused a shift: instead of hiding behind irony, they started openly embracing the imagery.

3. The “Accelerationist” Angle

Many of these groups are deeply influenced by accelerationism—the belief that by making things as extreme and chaotic as possible, they can hasten the collapse of the current system and usher in their fascist ideal. Openly flaunting Nazi symbols is a way to force polarization. Either people reject them, pushing society into a harder crackdown (which they think will fuel more radicalization), or their symbols become normalized. Either way, they win.

4. Elites Willing to Use It

Groups like the Heritage Foundation aren’t necessarily full of true believers, but they recognize that the white nationalist bloc is a useful tool. They might not openly say “Yes, let’s be Nazis,” but they won’t condemn it either because they see the political utility in stirring up cultural and racial grievance. The Proud Boys, on the other hand, have increasingly absorbed genuine fascists who have no problem crossing that line.

5. Trump’s Influence (and Possible Foreign Interference)

Trump has emboldened extremists to the point where they don’t feel the need to hide. His rhetoric gives them cover, even when he doesn’t directly endorse them. At the same time, foreign influence—whether from Russia, China, or other actors—could certainly be amplifying these elements. Destabilizing the U.S. by fostering internal division is classic asymmetric warfare.

Why Did They Think This Would Work?

They didn’t expect it to be embraced universally. They’re banking on two things: (1) the media and political establishment being too weak to properly respond, and (2) enough people either looking the other way or outright accepting it that they can normalize it.

What they didn’t anticipate was just how much backlash it would generate, even among right-wing circles. That suggests they either miscalculated public sentiment or, more likely, that the more extreme factions are losing control of their messaging discipline. Either way, it’s dangerous.

This isn’t a sudden emergence—it’s an inevitable consequence of where things were headed. The only question is whether this backlash is enough to force them back underground, or if it’s just another step toward further radicalization.

But Seig Heils? Even the most dense among them must know that blatant Nazism hurts their legitimacy in the eyes of the public, even among MAGATs

“hE wAs jUSt joKING 😡😡😡” -every magat ever

They want people to feel like rebels with a cause.

This is a good symbol to make a lot of people your enemies. Your ingroup can now rally against “the establishment”.

It couldn’t work before, because it made too many enemies for your small ingroup, but we’ve reached a tipping point where it is feasible to keep a thing going for a while.

Plenty of answers here but I don’t think anyone has answered this part:

Surely they would have a much easier time pushing their rhetoric and establishing their agenda by keeping a purposeful distance from that sort of indefensible imagery and symbolism.

So here’s my take …

Musk did the sig heil as a fuck you to everyone that doesn’t like him. That’s it.

They just won the election by basically lying, ignoring, and playing for time. They can literally do whatever the fuck they like for the next n years with impunity.

Imagine if Harris had won and in her victory speech said something like “Don’t worry Don, I’ll make sure they give you diapers in jail.” It would’ve been a low blow but we would’ve loved her for it because it’s poking fun at the conservatives for no other reason than to stir them up.

I think there’s another, longer conversation to be had about why racism (and by extension nazism) resonates with voters in 2025, but I’m too weary for that I think.

Fascism shouldn’t be thought of as a static “thing” or an object of ideology. Peoples beliefs come from their environment. We are so individualized as a society that often we as progressives take “personal responsibility” too far, we buy the premise implicitly without realizing there are flaws with thinking in this way. Every logical system has flaws and contradictions, its proven mathematically though I think some systems are more rigorous and based on evidence.

GWF Hegel’s philosophy of Right was written in 1820, and influenced political thought ever since. Liberalism was still in it’s revolutionary phase and theories about it were still fairly new, the Wealth of Nations was written just 50 years before, and Karl Marx was like two when it was released, although it would serve as the basis for much of his work analyzing the hidden relationships of Capital, and ethical political philosophy on the whole.

The book is the closest I think someone can honestly get to an actual “horseshoe theory” because not only did it influence the left but it also influenced the far right. Hegel, using the works of other great liberal philosophers such as Locke and Kant, who Hegel was always working to surpass, applied his dialectical philosophical methods to the writings of liberalism.

What he discovered was a natural tendency toward fascism. Like he prefigured fascism by 100 years. He wasn’t a fascist, there was no such thing. He was just exploring the ideas of this revolutionary philosophy, one that purported to liberate the mind, body and spirit, and discovered the oppressive seeds which might grow into something quite different.

This isn’t to call liberals fascists, I’m a communist and 20th century communism had a lot of problems, to put it mildly. I would say confidently that progressive liberals are not crypto fash, in fact the term “progressive” is a typically left-Hegelian ideal, in that it describes human progress and development as the subject of history. Instead it challenges the idea of the liberatory nature of private property, a key component of liberal thought. Of course this is all depending how you look at it, right-Hegelians see this same formulation as proof of the inevitability of their ideas and justification for their actions.

You’re getting a lot of different opinions about this stuff so I’m trying to make sort of a different point about philosophy, history and action. Other reading for a deep dive on fascism is the essay Ur Fascism by Umberto Eco (great empirical analysis, but the least scientific IMO), Trotsky’s pamphlet Fascism: What it is and How to Fight It, and HA Roy’s Fasism, Its Philosophy, Professions and Practice.

In a way, fascism has always been there below the surface, informally shifting the sands of history until it was formalized in the early 20th century. I don’t think you can have a society based on private property without some elements of fascism somewhere. Mostly “western democracies” will outsource their extreme cruelty to other countries where it doesn’t affect their citizens.

But in summary, Fascism is the realization of the contradictions inherent in liberal ideology, its liberalism turned inside-out, with all its appearances of justice and freedom cut away, leaving only the logic of expansion and domination that most liberal democracies do their best to hide. This is how fascists are able to hide in our society, their individual beliefs are not completely unpalatable to centrists and conservatives who have also started to dispense with justice and freedom in the interest of national greatness. Its what makes their beliefs so malleable, and its also why liberals have such a hard time defining it. But fascism isn’t an individual’s beliefs, if it was it would be just regular bog-standard chauvinism. Fascism is a mass movement which will use charismatic leaders amenable to their politics to rally the masses.

In our society, the middle classes are the “battery” for fascism. Middle classes are constantly under attack under capitalism and the individuals often feel this and become paranoid (doomsday prepping, etc.,) and this paranoia and real social pressure to produce or be wiped out, the fear from the constant threat of precarity and uncertainty fits hand in glove with the aims and means of fascists.

It’'s because the overall intent is not to unify the country under one government. It’s to keep the America fighting with itself so that it can’t interfere in Russian, Saudi and Chinese ambitions for an autocratic oligarchy. It’s in their best interests if America descends into the worst version of fascism that the world can dream up, and Trump’s GOP is entirely on their payroll.

Any potential positive government action by the GOP for the American people runs contrary to those goals, so they’ve turned to the tactics of fear and intimidation to maintain their hold on the population. Each public nazi salute is intentional, designed to strike fear and controversy into the hearts of the citizenry and publicly tarnish America’s image on the world stage.

Look at how Trump ran on inflation, but the only actions he’s taken have been to attack people’s livelihood or erode trust in federal and state institutions. He’s literally dismantling the federal government from the inside, but all anyone wants to talk about is the nazi salutes.

This is an intentional distraction.

This sort of thing doesn’t work in a strong democracy with an un-compromised media, but our democracy has been hollowed out by the cancer of Citizen’s United, rendering the power of a citizen’s vote near worthless, and by the likely election fraud performed by Musk. So they’re gloating and glorifying the symbol as a sign that no one can stop them.

See, the people in charge right now don’t care if the US collapses. They WANT it to. America has been the symbol of democratic freedom for the entire world. With the US abandoning that fight, there’s no real geopolitical power strong enough to take its place.

Which is exactly what Russia, China, and the Saudis want.

if you think the right wing being filled with nazi is a new phenomenon, I’ve got a bridge to sell you

First up, they are not Nazis

Second, the left has been calling the right Nazis for decades. Heck, Bob Dole called George Bush a Nazi, and we all know that wasn’t accurate. https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-08-10/bob-dole-george-bush-and-historys-most-brutal-presidential-campaign-attacks

It only seems recent because you’re young and not aware of the history of the term.

People become less hospitable in economic downturns, remember the original Nazis exploited that in the Versailles hit Weimar.