Hey all. Getting right to it:
Last November, a majority of my wife’s family voted trump. I immediately made known my disgust and that I had no interest in maintaining relationships with any of them. My wife is equally appalled, but family is important to her and she chooses to compartmentalise it for the sake of their relationships. That’s her call. Typically, her mother comes to stay at our house for an extended period as we live far away, and this year I tolerated her being here for the sake of my wife.
But now, thinking about the next visit and how bad things have gotten, I can’t even stand the thought of having her in my house, let alone being in the same room as her. I really don’t want her here at all, but I will again tolerate her for my wife’s sake. However I think it’s likely that I will make myself pretty scarce during that time.
So the ethics question is - given that I expressed my distaste after the election but still remained cordial, is it ok, ethically speaking, to become more resentful as the consequences of their actions become more apparent? Or, given that what has happened since is pretty much out of everyone’s hands, am I locked in to the level of hostility I showed immediately after?
I guess the distilled version is - a person does X, I express disapproval. Is it ethical to express MORE disapproval as additional unforeseen consequences of X become apparent?
Thanks for your thoughts!
Edit to Clarify - My mother in law is not MAGA and I don’t think she’s enjoying any of it. She thinks we can “just not talk about it” and everything will be fine. However she has become more racist and judgemental (anti-trans etc) in recent years. Hates Joe Biden and Kamal Harris but can’t or won’t say why. Thanks for the responses so far and I’ll try to respond, but I’m about to start work shortly.
You must log in or register to comment.
For your spouses sake, just stfu and dont engage with her regarding politics. Ask your spouse how she wants you to be, since the mother-in-law visiting is performative for you anyways, and you love your spouse more than you are obligated to tolerate your MIL.
Agree. I scrolled down in comments thinking I’m going to get downvoted for saying what I think. OP needs to chill. OP, is Trump going to be allowed to make you want to drive a wedge between your wife and her mother? Compartmentalise. Your wife’s family is not solely responsible for what Trump has done.
I love podcasts and I will always recommend from there. This is a fantastic episode from a fantastic series… please have a listen:
You Are Not So Smart: 306 - I Never Thought of it That Way - Mónica Guzmán (rebroadcast) - How to have more productive conversations in a highly partisan, polarized, and politicized world
You could probably make the case that I need to chill, but you seem to be making a few incorrect assumptions. I have no intention of interacting with my mother in law any more than absolutely necessary, and the sole reason she may be coming to visit ever again is because I don’t want to drive a wedge between my wife and her mother. I also don’t hold my wife’s family responsible, but by voting for him last November they all became part of the trump crowd who I collectively blame. No more, no less.
I’m definitely going to listen to that podcast. Thanks!
I’ve been gently easing the missus into the idea that I’m not going to be hanging out with her mother if she visits again. I can tell she’s conflicted, because on the one hand she’s always been exceptionally close with her, but on the other she’s just as disgusted as I am. I think we’d both be relieved if she just doesn’t visit anymore, which seems like a possibility.
I have a similar situation and I’ve landed on “my first duty is to my wife.” What that means to you may be different than what it means to me, but that’s where you should start IMO.
To the TL;DR question, absolutely it’s ethical to be more upset as more bad things happen.
You succinctly stated exactly my thoughts on this.
I’m like you, my first obligation is always to my wife, that’s the promise I made. But it’s never tested my principles before. I’ve already decided I’m just going to be scarce during those times. There’s been a lot of good advice here, but I was actually more interested in what ethics scholars would say regarding me feeling angrier as time goes on. The targets of my anger haven’t done anything more to deserve additional anger, it’s the consequences of what they did that continue to make me angry…
Just make sure she’s aware of the consequences of her actions. The amount of detail or tangentiality is up to you. If she’s smart she’ll STFU about it and it can be civil, if not cordial. But feel free to pull out the “I’m glad you like it when they zip tie kids” as needed.
I think I’d prefer to leave that to my wife, who isn’t shy about doing that. I got involved one time earlier this year (alcohol was involved) and I ended up being the asshole in the wife’s eyes. It was grossly unfair in my opinion, but that one time was enough for me to stay out of it permanently. Next visit I think I’m just going to not be around. I have a home office to hide in.
Resentfulness is a reaction, not a position to take.
You can either say “she’s not welcome” or “we agree to disagree and will not discuss it” and then stick to it. Your choice. But letting (welcoming?) her into your home and then resenting her presence is childish.
Take a stand, one way or another. If you let her come, then deal with it like an adult.
I immediately like and respect you. But there is some nuance. It’s not so much “letting her into my home” as it is “not preventing my wife from seeing her mother.” I’ve been preparing my wife for me to not be hanging out with them like I used to, I’ll be somewhere else or hiding out in my office.
I guess I should have been a bit clearer, but I was genuinely academically curious to know whether my increasing anger is legitimate. The general consensus seems to be it depends on their level of remorse (if any) over their choice. And that makes sense. From what I saw during this year’s visit, the MIL would just like to ignore all of it, but I don’t think that’s ok either. Fucking trump!
I am of the opinion that not discussing these things is an analog to the Paradox of Tolerance, if not being exactly what the Paradox is about. If we don’t discuss the hatefulness, then the hateful think they are doing fine.
Attacking only causes people to “dig in”. Passive aggressive actions will make you look weak.
Being cordial while also calling out instances of hate as they occur would likely be fine. Be strong and confident, but keep corrections short and to the point (Imagine correctly a 5 year old. Understanding and care, not anger, and keep things in reality.) “That didn’t happen.”, “Why would a criminal say that?”, “Toddlers visiting basketball plays, will reduce the average height, but no one gets shorter or taller.”
That’s how I intend to approach it, during the times when I’m unable to just not be around her.
However she has become more racist and judgemental (anti-trans etc) in recent years. Hates Joe Biden and Kamal Harris but can’t or won’t say why.
I’m gonna guess that it’s because she watches Fox “News”, and that she can’t say why she hates Biden and Harris. She’s simply heard so much anti-Democrat rhetoric that she’s parroting it.
Ethically, the choice seems easy. While specific events may be unpredictable, the themes of hatred and authoritarianism were obvious to anyone who was genuinely paying attention during the campaign. They knowingly voted for a complete piece of shit. They voted for someone who had tried to overthrow the government when things didn’t go his way. He had already been convicted of bribery and sexual assault before the election even took place. The man is simply unfit for office.
Your level of resentment is by no means “locked in”. You have every right to be angry.
The best thing you can do is communicate. Talk with your wife. Show her your post. Don’t keep your resentment bottled up - that’s not healthy. Hopefully, the two of you can come to a solution that doesn’t harm your marriage. If her family doesn’t like it, too bad. Through their (deliberate?) ignorance, they helped create this problem in the first place.
Excellent reponse, and sounds a lot like one side of my internal debate. On the one hand, since we moved away the only family she’s got left are welded-on republicans. But on the other, she’s been around for the last decade, and not knowing what she was voting for has to include some portion of wilfull ignorance. My wife knows how I feel, because she feels the same. She’s just very conflicted because she’s always been incredibly close with her mother, and severing family ties isn’t something she would ever consider possible. I intend to spend a lot of time in my home office during the next visit, and my wife knows that now.
Disapproval continues to be appropriate until they repent. Resentfulness harms only yourself, and should be avoided if possible. Overall I think you’re walking the line pretty well so far.
fill your house with tons of progressive decorations. Lots of lgbt+ and such and a painting of biden above the mantel. really do it up. then have her visit as much as she likes.
Progressive talk radio on in the background at all times?
Progressive talk radio does exist and came be pretty good.
I LOVE this idea. I’m doing it! I think a trans pride flag would look great on my back porch!
Do they try to talk politics while around? If so I’d fucking unload on their sorry asses (depending on how the wife would react). One of the most common themes I’ve seen among supporters is they have a very small single issue they claim as the sole reason. So forcing them to address the full ramifications I feel is prudent.
If they don’t try to talk politics, I’m not sure what I would do. But I’d definitely be making sure my wife wasn’t enduring some extra trauma for the sake of family. You could try helping her realize she had the power to cut them out of her life and she can be just fine.
Yeah she’s one of those “for the economy” types. But I don’t believe it from anyone who voted trump. We all saw the entirety of his first term, and J6. On top of that, in my opinion anyone who says they voted for him for the economy is tacitly admitting they knew he was going to hurt people, but chose to ignore that because they thought it would benefit them personally.
I can’t really offer specific advice on this situation. I don’t know. But I will say, in general separating from the person who’s victimized by propaganda just helps the propaganda spread. A lot of this stuff actually has deliberate features and habits that it tries to instill into people, to make it drive away people who might talk sense into them and make it harder for them to hear sense if someone does say it to them.
I think you should view your MIL as a victim of propaganda, similar to a drug addict or a person with significant trauma in their life. A lot of them are victims. Of course, if she’s telling you “I’m glad they’re snatching all those US citizens and deporting them to hellish nightmare prisons in other countries just because they’re Hispanic,” then maybe you want to shun her. But usually what’s happened is that they’ve gotten so twisted up in their perceptions that they think that what they’re saying and supporting is something really good, and everyone should support it. The stuff that she is victimized by is incredibly powerful, it’s not surprising to me that a lot of people get taken in by it.
Like I say it’s hard to give general advice about what you should do. But this may help you to be more gentle with her even if you are aware of the hatefulness at work in the stuff she was victimized by and have some understandably big feelings about it.
This is the ultimate high road I think, something to aspire to, if I can get my internal rage under control! It’s somewhat futile though, I’ve lost count of how many times she’s said “We never made more money than we did under Reagan” and then I’ve tried to explain to her that all that money she made was US debt that still hasn’t been repaid. But I think this reponse is ethical, pragmatic, and sympathetic.
Yeah. It sounds cliche, but “listen with your heart” is really accurate. She’s saying she misses the old days when America worked. That’s not wrong (I mean for white people it’s not, I would recommend not to go down that rabbit hole lol). A lot of it isn’t about what you say to her, it’s how you say it. If everything you say sounds cold and factual and correcting her, of course she’s not going to want to listen and it’s just going to be a hostile interaction.
It is tough. My experience with stuff like this is that they just live in a whole different reality, so it is hard to get a foothold. I had to work really hard at having conversations with people for whom the tone of voice and emotional intent is a huge part of how they process the information (which I think is most people). That’s not how I operate, so it was hard to keep it in mind without coming off as fake or condescending, but if you’re genuine about what you mean and focus on sort of the core of why you came to your beliefs (not the facts but the reasons why you care about the facts so much), a lot of times it comes across better. And then on top of that, you’re dealing with someone where their factual understanding of the world is off in la-la land, so it’s hard to not just lecture them or tell them what’s what.
Like that kind of thing about Reagan, my first reaction to the answer is “Yeah, and have you wondered why that hasn’t ever happened since then? Why everyone was doing okay until the late 80s and then it all went to hell and hasn’t come back? Honestly that’s what I want, is to get back to when working people had a fair shake and people could make a living. Don’t you want that? It sure as hell is not happening now under Trump…”
But again, it’s not the words, it’s the intent behind them. If you’re reasonable and you care, then it’s hard for her to take your statements hostile even if she doesn’t agree with them (honestly I can guarantee you that one conversation or even several about it will not change her mind.) But you can sort of plant seeds and then she’ll come around on her own, or if she does not then oh well.
If she is being overtly hateful on her own then it’s different. IDK what you can even do then. But mostly in my experience it is people who are so twisted up that they think the Democrats are so hateful that of course things X, Y, and Z make perfect sense and are the only humane thing to do. Mostly.
Excellent advice, truly. I’ll start practicing! Thank you.
To your edit… it rather sounds like she is in fact MAGA and doesn’t want to admit to the “why”. there’s really not very many people who were both willing to vote for trump a second time and aren’t MAGA, even if they don’t want to admit it.
from an ethics stand point, I’ll remind you of an old german saying. “If 10 men are sitting at a table with a nazi, you have 11 nazis.” You cannot look at trump and honestly conclude he’s an acceptable (never mind good,) president without also agreeing with his fascist and tyrannical bullshit. if she’s genuinely unhappy with the status quo, she can show it by protesting or something. Until then, she’s still a trump supporter and still part of the problem, and there is zero excuse for not knowing what he was about. he said he was going to do everything that he’s doing. (well. maybe not the ballroom or shitting himself, but details.)
but none of us are the ones you need to be having this conversation with. we can’t decide what’s right here… that’s a personal decision you need to make with your wife.
Pretty much hit the nail on the head there boss. No matter how hard I try I can’t accept the ignorance excuse after what all of us have seen. Earlier this year I said to my mother in law “surely you knew at the time that you were doing the wrong thing?” She denied it. The best approach for me is to be around the MIL as little as possible. My wife knows that. It makes her sad, but she understands.
Do they show any kind of remorse, like “I didn’t think it would be that bad”, denial “I don’t believe [bad thing] actually happened”, or are they straight-up going “serves them right, fuck them kids”? If it’s the third option, I wouldn’t even let them into my house anymore.
Kind of in the middle, ignore it and it doesn’t exist. If she was full maga then definitely not allowed in the house. My wife’s 2 sisters are and I’ve made it clear they shouldn’t bother coming to our city expecting to be invited into our home.
These people are guilty of crimes against humanity many times over. Crimes against the American people, war crimes, treasonous acts against the constitution…you name it.
You shouldn’t feel obliged to entertain people who support that. Zero consequences for these people means zero reconciliation for their atrocious behavior.
In the wise words of Christopher Walken:
This is where I’m at. I have a hard time scrounging up any kindness or forgiveness. I also have a hard time accepting the ignorance excuse when we’ve all seen the last 10 years of trump.
Put a rainbow flag in the room where she sleeps. 😋
Maybe a picture of Reagan with quotes of how Russia is the enemy, and tariffs are bad for everybody.a picture of Reagan with quotes of how Russia is the enemy, and tariffs are bad for everybody.
That’s particularly good.
She does love Reagan… 😆
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want to avoid your MIL. I also think it’s reasonable for your wife to maintain the relationship.
Can you use her visit as excuse to take a vacation—alone or with friends—or visit your family? Given the circumstances, I think avoidance is a perfectly valid option. Get some you time if your wife is cool with it.
This is by far the most reasonable compromise I’ve seen. OP, if the MIL absolutely must visit, this is a completely fair thing to demand in exchange. You are making a sacrifice for the sake of your wife. If you’re willing to be flexible, she should be, too.
I’m definitely planning to not be around the MIL much. I have a home office to hide in. I’ve briefly considered taking a weekend camping here or there, but that would hurt my wife as camping has always been an us thing. But when I say she stays for an extended period, I’m talking multiple months in a normal year. Guess I’ll just install some computer games! 😉
