Since Trump’s election, gun groups catering to progressives and people of color report a surge in interest as they look to defend themselves in a country that, to them, feels increasingly unstable.
Since Trump’s election, gun groups catering to progressives and people of color report a surge in interest as they look to defend themselves in a country that, to them, feels increasingly unstable.
I mean, after a certain point, yes. Solzhenitsyn talked about it, also I think some of the founding fathers had things to say about it. In our current situation, absolutely the fuck not. For one thing, it’ll get you killed obviously, for another thing, it’ll give them the pretext they’re looking for to start with all kinds of shit to all kinds of people that they can’t get away with right now. They are praying for something like this to happen. That’s why they play up anything which looks vaguely like it into something it isn’t.
Every day that goes by where ICE is the illegal mother fuckers and the people of the country are the innocents, is another day they lose a little more backing of the courts, the military, the city police, all kinds of stuff like that which is their pathway to power. I know it sounds like I’m just backing down from fighting back… all I am trying to say is that starting gunfights with the secret police is about like starting a fistfight with your abusive spouse: You’re not wrong. But also, you’re not going to win through that method.
Here is some extensive information about what does work after quite a lot of research: https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/126900/8008_FDTD.pdf
Two frogs sit in a pot of water, one turns to the other and says “were on a fire, we should leave before the water boils”
The second frog turns to the first and says “you’re being alarmist, things aren’t that bad.”
This sounds like the second frog.‡
It might be the more practical choice to keep backing away and keeping yourself and the people you care about out of the spotlight as long as possible, it’s certainly the safer choice and one that probably leads to a longer life…
You are certainly more optimistic about the future of the country than I am. I train because honestly I find it a little fun, competing with my own best times on various drills and courses. I also in recent years have come to train even harder and begun introducing LGBT friends to firearms, because I believe the country is headed toward civil war.
I’m not inviting my LGBT work friends to my range because I want them to attack ICE. I invite them and encourage them to buy their own firearm and train for self defense because I have literally heard other coworkers say, out loud to be met with nods and agreements, “any day now they’ll let us loose and I can go killin all them fs and tr***s (slurs for LGBT people)” and no end of bullshit about how “mentally ill” and “unstable” they supposedly are.
Besides, if my choices are “concentration camp v0.95” and “best case scenario being on the run after a shootout with the gestappo” then I know which choice I’m making.
You definitely have way more faith in our (metaphorical) neighbors and the system than I do. That probably a good thing, I’m a depressed pessimist with tons of anxiety about the state of the world. If more people were like me we would be like 10 years into a Civil War already or worse.
‡(frogs don’t actually sit in blowly heating water as certain movies like to say, they still will leave at some point when it gets uncomfortable)
You gotta read what I wrote again then lol
Absolutely not. Actually one of the really alarming things to me is that I don’t think this country has the structures and traditions in its society anymore that would enable it to build and maintain a working technological society (let alone a working democracy). I hope I am wrong, but I actually don’t even think that the current fascism crisis is the worst thing that we’re facing. I think it is a symptom of a much deeper disease which is a lot harder to get rid of than any one leader or political faction no matter how fascistic.
if ice is raiding my house, I am already dead. the only thing I get to decide in that scenario is how long it takes and who I take with me.
as for giving them the pretext, they will create whatever pretext they feel they need. they are already trying. remember the loser who shot migrants at the (Dallas?) ice office a few back? the only thing the government (and most media) would say about it was that he was shooting at ice officers when it was clear he was targeting immigrants.
fascism does not care about legality, and it doesn’t care about pretext. if they do not fit the pretext they want in the timeline they want, they will do it themselves.
Very very true. However, most of the country does. If they were already “doing it themselves” and this stuff didn’t matter, they would have arrested Pritzger, kicked Jimmy Kimmel off the air, that CBP commander in Chicago wouldn’t be showing up to court every morning, things like that. There is a reason they’re starting by focusing on vulnerable communities without much support from the rest of society, and obeying this elaborate pretense that they’re “enforcing immigration law” and pretending to stay inside those boundaries so elaborately.
I can pretty much guarantee you that if the citizens of Chicago had been obeying your advice here so far, Pritzger would have been arrested by some sort of federal agents already.
All I can really say is read the book. I know you have your way of looking at it and I’m honestly not trying to disrespect it, because I get it, but also, how many successful revolutions have you written the guidebook for? I think for Sharp that number is close to double digits now.
does most of the country care about legality and pretext? if they did we wouldn’t have the president or supreme court we do.
I’m familiar with sharps writings. he makes really good points but I think you are vastly underestimating the complexity of a revolution in a country such as united states. yes, his texts have been instrumental in may revolutions but as far as I am aware they have never been tested on such a world stage, and certainly not with the myriad of technological factors at play in the US, which changes things drastically as far as what is feasible.
I subscribe to a far more franz fanon approach, which is that nonviolence relies on your oppressors sense of humanity. if they are opressing you, their sense of humanity is so drastically different than ours that it is frivolous to try to appeal to it.
It would help if you included resources that prove that that book was the pretext for double digit successful revolutions.
That said, “There is a reason they’re starting by focusing on vulnerable communities without much support from the rest of society, and obeying this elaborate pretense that they’re “enforcing immigration law” and pretending to stay inside those boundaries so elaborately.”
Where do you think this is leading to, and the point theyre trying to take it always leads to armed resistance. Buy a gun and be safe. It’s really not even almost a chore to have a gun tucked away.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Dictatorship_to_Democracy
It’s known to have been directly involved in Burma, the Arab Spring, Serbia, and Angola. It’s been translated by local activists into Amharic, Arabic, Azeri, Bahasa, Belarusian, Burmese, Chin, Chinese (simplified and traditional Mandarin), Dhivehi, Farsi, French, Georgian, German, Jing Paw, Karen, Khmer, Kurdish, Kyrgyz, Nepali, Pashto, Russian, Serbian, Spanish, Tibetan, Tigrinya, Ukrainian, Uzbek, and Vietnamese. I have no idea how many of those led to it later being involved in a revolutionary attempt (let alone a successful one) in a “proof” sense. I was just telling you what I think about it.
Here’s a story: https://edition.cnn.com/2012/06/23/world/gene-sharp-revolutionary/index.html
The author is the real deal. He’s spent time in federal detention in the US, he’s spent a lot of time with people in resistance movements in these places.
I want to call your attention to this part specifically:
I don’t know if you can really call modern Myanmar a “success story” but to me they seem like they’re making more progress now than in 30 years of bloody armed confrontation with the military, which of course is more capable at military things.
Dang. Buying the book next time I can afford it. Thanks for sharing
Yeah, it is excellent. He put it in the public domain, it’s on the internet:
https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/126900/8008_FDTD.pdf
He wrote a bunch more that are a little more in depth (there are references in the appendix for some specific details about particular tactics), but that one is the pamphlet condensed version which is still pretty comprehensive.
Excited to get into this, thanks for elaborating
I hope your gun is securely “tucked away”. I have a kid and adding a gun to my household would make it statistically less safe.
I think it’s important to know how to safely handle guns, but in my life it’s completely unnecessary to own and maintain one. I know where I could steal a few if society collapsed, which I don’t think is likely anytime soon.
Kids aren’t in my home
Fascist don’t care what is or isn’t illegal. You sound just like the average German citizen in the 1930’s. Tell more about all the power they are losing while continuing to do the bad things.
Read the book. It’s based on a lot of research and it’s been actively used in practice in defeating a whole lot of governments a hell of a lot more repressive than Trump’s.
Emphasis is mine, that’s the answer to your question. He actually says later on that there are circumstances where violence is needed, I couldn’t quickly find that quote, but he basically just lays out the history of where and how different types of resistance action have worked.
I realize it’s not convincing when I just quote it out like that. Read the book. There are strong reasons and historical examples for everything he’s saying in those quick summaries.
One thing about this is that it seems to labor under the assumption of a symmetrical (or near symmetrical) fight, and that is exactly the last thing that a resistance group should be doing.
The most effective strategy for a resistance group is to be as expensive a problem to deal with and as difficult to get rid of as possible. Defend the community for sure, but the real fight is against the logistics of an armed force. The more time and money they have to waste, the better. Certain kinds of paint are impossible to get off of glass, like the glass used in bulletproof windshields that would need to be completely replaced, or the kinds of clear plastic used in things like riot shields and visors. At the extreme end, there’s options like paying these fascists thugs a “visit” in the dead of night. All these human traffickers have homes to go back to at night, and if enough face repercussions, it will quickly become difficult to find people willing to stick their neck out and possibly become yet another new fountain.
All this to say, I don’t think anybody who actually knows what they’re doing or intends to do something thinks that they’re going to help form a standing army and fight the US government. Sporadic and random acts of self defense or defense of the community? Sure. Suicide by cop? I would be surprised if people weren’t thinking about that eventuality. But Rambo is not gonna happen and any violence will definitely happen alongside the peaceful protests that we’ve been seeing for months now, and not instead of them (at least, not until things get very very bad).
He talks about guerilla war in parts of it.
The same is true of judges, Democratic congresspeople, state governors… all kinds of people. So you’re right back to the symmetrical conflict.
Gene Sharp has a lot of great points. I also recommend his book The Politics of Nonviolent Action which has a lot more detail.
However, in the end I asked myself what would Picard (of Star Trek) do and I realized he would be armed and capable and use violent resistance as a last resort.
So I bought a Mossberg 500 and am training with it once a week. I even feild strip it and put it back together. I also started training in Brazilian jiu jitsu which is a pretty fun way to get into shape. I am getting good at grappling and choking big guys out. I’m also leaning a bunch about radio.
Another book I recommend is Full Spectrum Resistance which has examples of why it helps to have both nonviolent and violent resistance.
So if you don’t feel right with a gun, I think that’s ok. As long as we are doing something productive while we can. And it doesn’t hurt to level up some skills that you can use to help your community if the unthinkable does happen.
Honestly everyone should take some kind of self-defense classes. I know something about it but I am horribly out of shape right now, which probably isn’t a good idea.
This is very sincerely a really good point. I might do some first aid classes and things, it does indeed seem like shit will get quite a lot wilder before it ever gets unwild again.