I can accept that as we move backwards from effect to cause we can aggregate some level of responsibility, but where does that end? Israel wouldn’t exist without the British, so are they responsible? To what extent is Hitler responsible? Or the Moorish invasion of Spain? Ultimately I guess we end up back in Egypt and it’s the Pharaoh’s fault?
Ultimately Hamas (and the Palestinian people, separately) are making choices and actions that are either appropriate or inappropriate to their situation. I don’t find the use of child soldiers (and historically, child suicide bombers) to be a reasonable response, and so I don’t hold Israel responsible.
And just to show that I am in fact operating in good faith here, I think the great match of return was an appropriate response, and hold Israel responsible for the resulting deaths.
Israel wouldn’t exist without the British, so are they responsible?
Yes, but not just because the British mandate was how the land was stolen in the first place, but Britain today supports Israel’s genocide.
To what extent is Hitler responsible?
He’s dead so that’s kind of irrelevant, but did you know Zionists were Nazi collaborators? The worked with the Nazis to migrate German Jews to Palestine.
Or the Moorish invasion of Spain?
I think you missed my point.
This isn’t about historical guilt, it’s about the active and ongoing role Israel plays in the conditions that helps Hamas recruit children. Every time Israel kills an entire child’s family, which happens constantly by the way, they’ve just created another lifelong supporter of Hamas that is ripe for recruitment.
That’s how blowback works! It’s not some historical karma that’s coming back onto Israel, it’s their active oppression that does the seeds of resistance.
And this current phase of the genocide will only make Hamas stronger. Israel can not win.
Regarding Israel not being responsible for “unreasonable” actions by Hamas, do you have a position? Was recruiting child soldiers a reasonable course of action pre-invasion?
Context is required to understand Hamas. Half of Gaza’s population is under 18, and for comparison Israel’s under 18 population is close to 1/3rd and the US’s under 18 population is close to 1/4th. Why the disparity? Because Israel has a policy of “mowing the grass” and killing off the surplus adult male population. So actually, yes, I think Hamas’s use of child soldiers is an understandable response to Israel killing off adult men. “Reasonable” may push it too far, but that’s irrelevant.
I didn’t say Israel does not share responsibility for unreasonable actions by Hamas. I said Israel shares all responsibility for everything Hamas does, not that Israel gets a free pass just because Hamas does something unreasonable. Israel is responsible for the blowback it creates, because this shit would not happen if Israel was not exploiting and oppressing and killing Palestinians.
Remember that those are fathers and uncles and brothers that Israel is killing. Again, that’s how blowback works. Israel creates the next generation of child soldiers that dedicate their lives to fighting back. They’re pushed to these extremes by Israel. Blowback. Does that make it reasonable? I don’t think that’s even my place to say, only Palestinians can decide that.
Do you have any evidence that Gaza’s population is young because Israel is killing off the adult population? Just thinking about it, the numbers don’t seem anywhere close to adding up. There’s 2.3 million people, half of which are minors. To make that 1/3, Israel would have had to kill 1.1 million adults over the past generation.
My understanding of “Mowing the grass” is knocking out military and trade infrastructure, not genocide.
On the contrary, it looks like Gaza is so young because their population has doubled in the past 20 years. Gazans are just having shitloads of children. If my math and data are right, does this change your view on the reasonableness of using child soldiers?
The fertility rate is high, but you’re not considering the negative net migration rate out of Gaza due to the unbearable conditions the people within Gaza have to live under. Under 18 the majority are male, over 18 the majority are female. The young male population shrinks from migration, imprisonment, and death.
Also, I literally said I’m not making claims to reasonableness and also that reasonableness is irrelevant anyway. Why are you harping on this?
I’m harping on it because I think reasonableness is the clear line around which we can assign blame. A group is generally not responsible for reasonable actions taken given their conditions. If you want to blame Hamas’s tactics on Israel, I think you need to show that they are reasonable tactics.
Unless you can show me where 1 million Palestinians were killed/imprisoned/migrated over the past 20 years, I think it’s pretty clear cut that half the population are children because the population just doubled.
Regarding male/female, the ratio you have is totally normal. Male babies are favored, but men lead wildly riskier lives and die younger than women.
I’m not seeing any evidence that Israel has meaningfully affected the population statistics of Gaza over the past generation.
I’m uninterested in assigning blame in a moralistic black and white way. I think Israel shares responsibility. The UN certainly thought so in the case of Colombia, which I previously quoted. The use of child soldiers by non-state actors still is the responsibility of the state.
As for the male/female longevity argument, let’s look at Israel:
0-14 years: male 1,200,721/female 1,146,556
15-64 years: male 2,839,124/female 2,737,054
That same radical drop off in the male population does not exist in Israel, males outnumber females in both age cohorts. That male/female longevity divergence kicks in after 65, which is why the CIA fact book separates those age cohorts.
I can accept that as we move backwards from effect to cause we can aggregate some level of responsibility, but where does that end? Israel wouldn’t exist without the British, so are they responsible? To what extent is Hitler responsible? Or the Moorish invasion of Spain? Ultimately I guess we end up back in Egypt and it’s the Pharaoh’s fault?
Ultimately Hamas (and the Palestinian people, separately) are making choices and actions that are either appropriate or inappropriate to their situation. I don’t find the use of child soldiers (and historically, child suicide bombers) to be a reasonable response, and so I don’t hold Israel responsible.
And just to show that I am in fact operating in good faith here, I think the great match of return was an appropriate response, and hold Israel responsible for the resulting deaths.
Yes, but not just because the British mandate was how the land was stolen in the first place, but Britain today supports Israel’s genocide.
He’s dead so that’s kind of irrelevant, but did you know Zionists were Nazi collaborators? The worked with the Nazis to migrate German Jews to Palestine.
I think you missed my point.
This isn’t about historical guilt, it’s about the active and ongoing role Israel plays in the conditions that helps Hamas recruit children. Every time Israel kills an entire child’s family, which happens constantly by the way, they’ve just created another lifelong supporter of Hamas that is ripe for recruitment.
That’s how blowback works! It’s not some historical karma that’s coming back onto Israel, it’s their active oppression that does the seeds of resistance.
And this current phase of the genocide will only make Hamas stronger. Israel can not win.
Regarding Israel not being responsible for “unreasonable” actions by Hamas, do you have a position? Was recruiting child soldiers a reasonable course of action pre-invasion?
Context is required to understand Hamas. Half of Gaza’s population is under 18, and for comparison Israel’s under 18 population is close to 1/3rd and the US’s under 18 population is close to 1/4th. Why the disparity? Because Israel has a policy of “mowing the grass” and killing off the surplus adult male population. So actually, yes, I think Hamas’s use of child soldiers is an understandable response to Israel killing off adult men. “Reasonable” may push it too far, but that’s irrelevant.
I didn’t say Israel does not share responsibility for unreasonable actions by Hamas. I said Israel shares all responsibility for everything Hamas does, not that Israel gets a free pass just because Hamas does something unreasonable. Israel is responsible for the blowback it creates, because this shit would not happen if Israel was not exploiting and oppressing and killing Palestinians.
Remember that those are fathers and uncles and brothers that Israel is killing. Again, that’s how blowback works. Israel creates the next generation of child soldiers that dedicate their lives to fighting back. They’re pushed to these extremes by Israel. Blowback. Does that make it reasonable? I don’t think that’s even my place to say, only Palestinians can decide that.
Do you have any evidence that Gaza’s population is young because Israel is killing off the adult population? Just thinking about it, the numbers don’t seem anywhere close to adding up. There’s 2.3 million people, half of which are minors. To make that 1/3, Israel would have had to kill 1.1 million adults over the past generation.
My understanding of “Mowing the grass” is knocking out military and trade infrastructure, not genocide.
On the contrary, it looks like Gaza is so young because their population has doubled in the past 20 years. Gazans are just having shitloads of children. If my math and data are right, does this change your view on the reasonableness of using child soldiers?
The fertility rate is high, but you’re not considering the negative net migration rate out of Gaza due to the unbearable conditions the people within Gaza have to live under. Under 18 the majority are male, over 18 the majority are female. The young male population shrinks from migration, imprisonment, and death.
Also, I literally said I’m not making claims to reasonableness and also that reasonableness is irrelevant anyway. Why are you harping on this?
I’m harping on it because I think reasonableness is the clear line around which we can assign blame. A group is generally not responsible for reasonable actions taken given their conditions. If you want to blame Hamas’s tactics on Israel, I think you need to show that they are reasonable tactics.
Unless you can show me where 1 million Palestinians were killed/imprisoned/migrated over the past 20 years, I think it’s pretty clear cut that half the population are children because the population just doubled.
Regarding male/female, the ratio you have is totally normal. Male babies are favored, but men lead wildly riskier lives and die younger than women.
I’m not seeing any evidence that Israel has meaningfully affected the population statistics of Gaza over the past generation.
I’m uninterested in assigning blame in a moralistic black and white way. I think Israel shares responsibility. The UN certainly thought so in the case of Colombia, which I previously quoted. The use of child soldiers by non-state actors still is the responsibility of the state.
As for the male/female longevity argument, let’s look at Israel:
0-14 years: male 1,200,721/female 1,146,556
15-64 years: male 2,839,124/female 2,737,054
That same radical drop off in the male population does not exist in Israel, males outnumber females in both age cohorts. That male/female longevity divergence kicks in after 65, which is why the CIA fact book separates those age cohorts.
Something else is going on.