- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
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Mam, I wish geopolitics was as simple as you “genocide joe” bros seem to think it is.
This is actually huge and we should be celebrating it as a win. We’ll that’s if you actually care about the people of Gaza and don’t just want to use them as an excuse to attack Biden.
the “genocide joe” people are pretty much the same as the people attacking dr. fauci for pushing vaccines, tbh
Geopolitics isn’t simple. Being against genocides is simple.
America is trying to fix the problem it helped create.
So you think if Biden was so inclined to he could just say “no more support for Israel” and everyone would just happily go along with it because he’s president and everyone has to do what he says?
Or would an administration with no majority in either the senate or the house maybe have trouble going against decades of policy and doctrine, to abandon its closest ally in an incredibly unstable and important region and put at risk American political and corporate interests in the area?
So you think if Biden was so inclined to he could just say “no more support for Israel” and everyone would just happily go along with it because he’s president and everyone has to do what he says?
YES
It should never be difficult to do the right thing.
You are right, but also very naive.
What would Jesus do? Or Martin Luther King? Or Ghandi? Or Nelson Mandela?
Name a better candidate that has a chance to defeat Biden in November.
I’ll wait here.
Everyone keep this in mind:
Very well said. Additionally, note how none of the people that care so deeply about the oppressed and war-torn victims and refugees of genocide seem to have a shit to give about what’s happening to the Ukrainian people.
Apparently a genocide is only define by how the American president is handling it.
Not just Ukrainians. Uyghurs, Syrians, Kurds, Georgians, Quirimli, Chechens… the list goes fucking on.
The most vile shit they introduced into discourse around Gaza is the notion that genocide is a competition. “More people dead in n days in Gaza than in n months in Ukraine” is a statement that achieves only two goals: devalue human suffering and reveal the messenger to be a morally bankrupt psychopath.
A win that Israel will continue to use US weapons against Palestine while we spend 2 months building a dock in order to deliver aid to people that are starving now?
It seems pretty disgusting of you to call this a ‘win’ and try to deflect criticism against those supporting genocide.
Well they are already airdropping food into Gaza which is the only other realistic option. So getting aid into gaza in 2 months IS a win since if they didn’t then NO aid would get into Gaza.
And you would understand this if you actually gave a shit about these people instead of just wanting to use them to justify you political beliefs.
You’re the one accosting anyone who points out that Biden could end a lot of the suffering if he’d just stop supplying all the weaponry that’s being used on these people. Concern trolling doesn’t really work when you’re the guy openly supporting genocide.
I’m “accosting” you because you’re not arguing in good faith, either because you’re a troll or you’re actually left wing but one of the smug ones that only cares about ideological purity tests that ignore reality.
Like I get in your incredibly simplistic view of how things work Biden is a mustache twirling villains that gets glee from knowing destinations are dying. And if he wanted to he could snap his fingers, stop weapons sales tomorrow and the genocide would be over in a week, right.
When the reality is that he is doing what he can to help the situation, but doesn’t have control of either the senate or the house and is arguing with republicans over aid to Ukraine which they tried to tie to aid to Israel. And plus he will have pressure from donors and other important people in the arms industry, during what may be the most important election in US history. So is almost certainly having to do the unthinkable calculus of if he did spend all his political capital on stopping arms sales to Israel, is that worth harming his chances at reelection, seeing as trump will u doubtsbly cause more harm both domestically and in Gaza. And then even if he did stop arms sales, Israel has both huge stockpiles of weapons and its own military production capacity, as well as the fact they’re currently already committed to ground offensives, which don’t rely much on US supplies, so the genocide wouldn’t stop.
So Biden can either do what he can to get aid into gaza or he can spend all his political capital to stop weapons shipments to isreal, burning US foreign policy in the region, passing of donors and key political figures in a time when he desperately needs then, for no real gain other than a PR victory for the sake of people who will immediately find some new way to demonise him instead.
This diatribe pretty much boils down to you claiming that polling numbers and donors are more important than the lives of those people being slaughtered over there, going as far as to say stopping weapons shipments is “no real gain” because pandering to donors is more important.
I’m sure the men, women, and children who will be vaporized into red mist by the next US weapons shipment would disagree that there’s “no real gain” to stopping them. You’re a disgusting individual.
Ah okay, so you are just a troll.
I’m sorry I wasted my time on you as if you were a reasonable person.
Yeah im sure Genocide Joe has perfectly good intentions when he says he plans build a port in a city he directly helped to ethnically cleanse, that just so happens to be within a few nautical miles of two massive oil wells recently discovered within Gaza’s territorial waters, which have already been sold off to oil companies.
This is the same country that managed to kill people whilst dropping out of date, non-halal, food onto civilians.
Why are you so desperate to avoid seeing him for what he is? Are you feeling guilty for the horrors you’ve seen whilst still convincing yourself America is the good guy?
I mean for one I’m not taking someone seriously that unironicslly says “genocide Joe”
Also you might wanna learn the definition of “directly” because you’re not using it right.
Also do you have any sources for any of the stuff you just claimed because I can’t find info on it at all.
Like it’s so obvious you don’t actually give a shit about this people and it’s just an excuse for you to say “but Biden bad” like the good little useful idiot you are.
It doesn’t matter if he’s building infrastructure to get needed aide onto gaza, or directly airdropping food into the city. You people will always try and find some mental gymnastics way to make it into Biden supporting genocide.
he directly helped to ethnically cleanse
citation needed. do you realise how silly you sound with this claptrap?
Citation needed? Motherfucker was on record being so willing to kill civilians that previous Israeli presidents thought he was too extreme
He directly helped by directly sending Israel billions in arms funding for years leading up to, and after, Israels most recent invasion and genocide of Gaza. He could’ve pressured Israel to back down at any moment but instead parroted Israeli propaganda such as “mass rapes”, “beheaded babies”, and the atrocious claims of UNRWA involvement with Hamas, which has in turn lead to them losing hundreds of millions in funding.
If you think any of that is “claptrap” (OK Boomer) consider going back to reddit where you won’t get people challenging your genocide apologism.
non-halal
Muslims are allowed to eat haram if they would otherwise starve, this kind of nitpicking is very elucidatory. Like, would you rather less food be delivered, or delivered with more delay, just to ensure it sticks to rules which are not even applicable to this scenario?
That’s true, as well as you can also eat out-of-date food if the alternative is starvation, but it seems fitting that the US is only able to scrounge 38,000 meals (enough for 1.7% of the total population of Gaza to have one meal) while it’s gleefully sending billions in military aid to Israel.
Except out of date food carries a risk, and non-halal does not.
Did they find oil in Gaza? /s
But for real though, if/when Israel bombs a US-built humanitarian shipping port, will the US finally stop supplying bombs?
They did actually.
This is so silly. This is just Biden trying to keep both sides of his own party happy…
It’s a bold move Cotton, let’s see if it pays off for him.
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Is Palestine the husband and Israel the daughter?
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Learning the history behind this conflict has made me reach the conclusion that the only way for it to be resolved is for Zionists to return the land they’ve stolen.
We’ll call it “reparations.” Israelis can live there too. As equals. Imagine.
As Jewish people did across the levant before the Nakba, with hope.
Just stop Israel and the problem is solved. No need to complicate yourselves with a damn port.
Just consider reality occasionally, ‘k?
Which is? To keep giving them bombs to kill children while also morally posturing and talking about how awful it is what Israel is doing?
almost as if, contrary to what perpetually online slacktivists say, there is no easy answer for this considering you stop one side and the other side who has been fighting with them for decades, then starts harming the israeli people.
Ah the old “it’s so complicated guys, we just HAVE to do this genocide”. The exact same shit fascist apologists do every time someone challenges the horrors they create without having to do any work explaining why 40,000 people have to die for the sensibilities of colonizers
and how are you going to stop israel without declaring war on them? netanyahu is his own person.
Stop funding them, that’s it. Stop giving them weapons and money. Condemn their actions. Stop vetoing UN Security Council ceasefire votes.
so you’d rather the israeli civilians die then?
And what did NATO do to the Serbs when they tried to do a little genociding?
nato != the un. unless you want nato to declare war on a nuclear power and throw out decades of treaties…
Yes, if they’re committing genocide, Yes.
“Just stop israel”
Wow I never knew geopolitics could be so simple!!
Yeah, giving them bombs to kill kids is definitely a very complex situation
Yep, they totally give Israel bobms for the express purpose of killing kids. Definitely not to defend themselves against a potential war with Iran or Egypt…
Biden sits in the oval office and twirls his mustache like a cartoon villain as laughs about dead kids. Because the world is just so simple and black and white :)
Funny you say that, cause even fucking Reagan had more of a spine to stop weapon transfers to Israel in the 80s when there actually was a realistic chance of war with Egypt, while Israel was actually at war with a neighbouring country, not with a militant group from one of the regions they occupy that has no means of actually procurring real bombs. But sure, do tell me how Israel needs those bombs to protect itself from… Egypt?
I mean yeah because they used to attack other sovereign nations. And unfortunately 1. Palestine isn’t a recognised nation, 2. Israel has the plausible deniability of this being “self defence”
Then you also need to take into account that Raegans administration was in a much stronger position so had more political capital to spend on those sorts of decisions.
And there was also less pressure to secure Western interests in the region back then. Biden will be under much more pressure from US companies to protect their business in the region weber that’s operations in Israel or oil and gas in the area. And not to mention the weapons companies that make billions off of Israel.
And yeah look at the current regime in Egypt and Iran, they are both religious extremists that are not keen on either western values or Jewish people. And Iran supplies hamas with weapons. Its very much plausible for a war another war to break it if either of those governments decides they want to start a war despite knowing they will lose.
If you drop the self-righteous indignation and try and be a realist, you will see Biden actually doing quite a lot given the circumstances. And so its better to direct your ire at someone more deserving, like the Israelis actually carrying out the genocide, or the weapons manufacturers that are profiteering off it and lobbying the government to keep up weapons trade and aid.
Bro replying to every comment “its not that simple!!!” when it really is, that fucking simple.
damn you should be president then you’ve figured out a 50 year old problem in a week
It’s not hard when millions of people have also figured out the solution over 75* years ago.
Just because you don’t understand why it’s complex, doesn’t make it simple.
K, America has broken all treaties with Israel to declare a surprise war with a nuclear power.
“We are not waiting on the Israelis”
Also
The scheme will take several weeks to put into action, however, carrying the risk of supplying too little relief, too late.
Someone tell Biden that if he actually wants to do something he has a few aircraft carriers and frigates nearby perfectly capable of delivering food
Or maybe Biden doesn’t want to do anything. He just wants to make it look like he does something. Wonder which it could be.
You people are actually braidead.
Please tell me how a frigate, nevermind a fuckjng aircraft carrier can deliver supplies without a fuckjng port to dock in?
The big ship stays in the water, and is used to supply smaller water craft that can ferry them directly to the coast; either by using smaller existing docks, or by simplying beaching on the cost. Unless we are saying that the US military lacks the ability to do a water based ground attack unless the enemy kindly leaves a port for them to use.
There aren’t any functional docs on the strip, the closes is a small marina for small bosts that has no equipment for receiving bulk supplies.
So you would have to load supplies onto lifeboats or ribs, ferry them across and unload them by hand, you wouldn’t even get half a tonne per trip realistically and you spend hours loading and unloading it all.
Or if they happen to have amphibious assault ships in the area, they could move small truck of supplies on to the beach. But this would be a costly and still quite innifecient process. Which is why in any actual amphibious landing as soon as the immediate area is secured the Naval Cargo Handling Batallion builds at least a temporary dock at the landing site as soon as possible.
Aircraft carriers actually have a lot of storage space since they have to be able to cruise around for a long time without resupplying. They have many “smaller” boats surrounding them which can easily transport food if they used their life boats.
If there’'s a will there’s a way. People are actively dying of starvation.
Waiting multiple weeks to build a pier for “clean delivery” is what I would use the adjective in your comment for.
How many tons of food can a lifeboat carry do you think? How does that food get loaded onto and unloaded off the boat? By hand?
If there’'s a will there’s a way. People are actively dying of starvation.
And the US has been airdropping food in. But there just isn’t enough capacity, and Biden has been criticised for not doing enough in that case too. The real solution if for Israel to allow trucks across the land border and not machine gun residents when they try to collect the aide.
The real solution if for Israel to allow trucks across the land border and not machine gun residents when they try to collect the aide.
Yes but Biden is actively trying to pretend that isn’t possible and make up excuses why he needs TWO MONTHS to build a pier to drop off food. In the hopes his voting base is stupid enough to believe he isn’t actively trying to ignore the issue.
How is he pretending that isn’t possible?
How is he ignoring the issue? He’s building infrastructure in order to facilitate aid delivery, because his previous action of airdropping aid into gaza doesn’t have the capacity to provide enough food to alleviate the famine, and he only has to find this solution because Israel has ignored his calls to not start a ground offensive in rafah and also ignored his calls for a ceasefire.
So I really don’t get how you can try and spin “he’s ignoring the issue” from all that.
What? The issue is the truck blockade imposed by israel. That’s what’s being ignored.
So what do you think Biden is actuslly capable of doing about that, that he’s currently not doing?
The US and UK (either or) could’ve stopped the genocide immediately – establishing a no-fly zone over Gaza and forcing israel to respect the Rafah border crossing instead of bombing it every time the trucks moved through a little too freely.
They have no intention of stopping this unless Hamas suddenly becomes much more profitable to western interests than Israel.
Israel already blocks all ship based access to Gaza. Building a port won’t change this
I double dog dare Israel to try and stop a US Navy relief mission.
It does make one wonder why they didn’t just land at Gaza’s actual seaport.
Entirely possible you just can’t anymore.
They shoot their own hostages in what seems like remenants or revival of the hanibal directive. It’d be foolish to assume they wont bite the hand that feeds, especially when they get away with everything they do. Why would Israel expect consequences?
Never get involved in a land war in Asia, never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line, and never fuck with AMERICA’S BOATS!
They won’t fuck with any US flagged boat for sure. But any other flags? They will get refused, and if they dock anyway they will get captured or sunk
That is a crazy event in history.
But having the US navy run it might. Essentially, it becomes a question of who blinks first. Humanitarian organizations run away scared when the regional power starts dropping bombs and shhoting at them; and Israel knows it.
Picking a fight wirh the US military is a much bigger deal. This is why the US response to conflicts is often just “send in an aircraft carrier to float around near the issue”
This is a moment for American leadership
Oooooooh shiiiit we know how this plays out
Still, at least the Palestinians have a shot at winning this one then 😂
Where is Meggido, again?
Oh snap, we invading.
I mean, it probably won’t be worse then the status quo
We say that every time and every time it gets worse
WW2 Nazi Germany. America and the Allies stopped the Holocaust.
You can say we’ve fucked a lot of our military interventions up, but we have stopped genocide before.
Yeah, our ancestors stopped genocide during World War 2. And then other ancestors tried to engage in genocide against Vietnam. And now we’re only just starting to attempt to convince Israel to not do genocide. So the record currently stands 1-1, with the current one being the tiebreaker.
This is a hilariously misleading summary of American history.
America has only been in 2 conflicts and is responsible for genocide carried out by a sovereign state
Fucking lmao
This is a hilariously misleading summary of American history.
America has only been in 2 conflicts and is responsible for genocide carried out by a sovereign state
Fucking lmao
-Direct quote from nac82
Oh, hello strawman argument! How are you doing?
Crying strawman isn’t going to make your shit attempt at an American history lesson more accurate.
Except the gays, they were put back in the camps.
And America is a part of the Allies, they don’t get an special nod. Russia did a lot of the work and look at then now, scumbags.
Incoherent nonsense. Saying America and the Allies was not a claim of separation, it was an including statement on who stopped Germany while discussing America. Of course that’s the petty bullshit you want to bicker with.
America wasn’t neighbors with the fascist regime. They stepped up so pretending they dont deserve a special nod is bad faith input too. Russia also teamed up with Germany initially and only changed teams to protect their sovereignty.
Everything you say is some basic removal of context to bitch about nonsense.
Stepped up after years, after an attack on their own soil and to profit greatly.
America has a right to be proud of their place in WW2 but given Americas pride related to absolutely everything they do they need reminding of all the horrible shit they did. Like not freeing everyone from camps immediately.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
US forces will build a temporary port on the Gaza shoreline in the next few weeks to allow delivery of humanitarian aid on a large scale, Joe Biden will announce in the State of the Union speech.
This is a moment for American leadership,” a senior US official said on Thursday, reflecting growing frustration of what is seen in Washington as Israeli obstruction of road deliveries on a substantial scale.
“Tonight, the president will announce in his State of the Union address that he has directed the US military to undertake an emergency mission to establish a port in Gaza, working in partnership with like minded countries and humanitarian partners,” the official said.
In his State of the Union speech, Biden will also announce the opening of a new land crossing into the occupied and devastated coastal strip.
Biden has been fiercely criticised within his own party for the failure to open up Gaza to humanitarian aid, with a famine looming and 30,000 Palestinians dead already since the start of war on 7 October.
“We will coordinate with the Israelis on the security requirements on land and work with the UN and humanitarian NGOs on the distribution of assistance within Gaza,” a senior official said.
The original article contains 435 words, the summary contains 205 words. Saved 53%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
The war machine must play both sides.
So, do we want the Biden administration to continue to work towards supporting Palestine, or do we want them to revert back to a hard defense of Israel and ramp up arms production?
Lemmy users are fucking braindead when it comes to building support for unified movements in America, and it shows time and time again.
This might be news for yall, but a nation of people does not change course overnight.
Yall do realize you are supposed to reward positive actions to encourage more of them right? If you punish people for doing the right thing the same way you punish them for doing wrong, you are just fucking up your own message.
Personally I want America to fuck right off and stop propping up regimes that suit their needs to the detriment of humankind the world over.
I want to preface this with I don’t actively subscribe to this way of thinking, I just want to tell you how the US leadership think:
The main reason the US supports Israel is so they have a western friendly power in the region to counter countries like Iran or Egypt which were historically soviet aligned and now have some awful dictatorial and religiously extreme governments. If they stopped supporting Israel and, say, Iran invaded, somehow wins and puts the whole of that area under there extremist rule, would that be preferable to you?
It’s not preferrable because it is hypothetical, when in reality through their support over the years they could have stopped a lot of the horrible horrible shit (known as war crimes for other regimes) but they did not.
There is a lot of space from war profiteering and genocide support to Iran land grabbing.
They couod have more actively sought a two party state and not allowed everything else Israel did.
Do you know they didn’t? Like do you think it’s possible the US has been negotiating in the background to prevent something worse from happening?
Because personally I fully believe Israel would have leveled gaza decades ago to turn into new settlements if they didn’t have to worry about losing the support of the US. So I think pretty much the only reason they havnt is because of behind the scenes negotiating of the US.
Yes I do think they didnt because they have been selling them arms for decades, sharing information to the point where israel is now probably more capable and can now do what they want.
The current president of America is, or at least was, defending their actions as defensive and calling for unconditional support as he is a “zionist”. Im not buying for a second they had anyone else’s interest at heart.
Okay, so a bit tangential to out main point.
But what do you think would actually happen, if Biden just kinda snapped, and went fully against Israel, said they were commiting genocide, said the US should stop supporting them etc. Etc. What do you think would actually realistically come from that?
That’s not very Cash-Money of you…
Ypu mean ypu want to continue bitching about nonsense instead of pursue solutions.
Yes nonsense is typically the word used for supporting a genocide.
Anything else you want to trivilise? Because I cant really think of worse.
I want the Biden administration to stop selling them weapons and going to bat for them at the UN.
please tell me what voting for a non-binding ceasefire at the un is going to do unless you’re going to start physically using force against israel?
It tells the world quiet clearly that you don’t side with a genocidal regime for one.
The current approach has all but destroyed any moral high ground the US, UK and other western countries had around human rights.
i don’t like the israeli strategy but calling everything “genocide” does nothing to help the situation.
we have treaties for a reason and that still doesn’t say anything about what voting for a non-binding ceasefire will do for the region.
i don’t like the israeli strategy but calling everything “genocide” does nothing to help the situation.
I’m not calling everything genocide. I’m calling the genocide that Netanyahu is perpetrating right now in Gaza a genocide.
Pretending it’s anything less tells me what you are.
Please tell me what continuing to block it will accomplish, other than signaling support for Netanyahu’s genocide?
Nuanced voices are rarely the loudest
I want anyone engaged in war crimes to face consequences for their actions tbh.
Cool, I want a billion dollars and a cure for cancer. Lmk when the magical sky daddy starts granting wishes.
What real path to this outcome do you see? What’s step 1?
How do you plan on charging Putin?
Step one tear it all down. Let me know when you get that far.
So you don’t really want these things. You want a do nothing point to bitch about.
What? No I definitely want humanity to fail lol.
What is up with lemmy and playing ‘would you rather’?
How about not shipping arms to Israel with one hand and sending aid to Palestine with the other. Whoever has money in both sides is making bank off of this. If the US wants to be world police then maybe don’t let things go this far before changing stance on the matter. It took a hell of a lot of killing before the US government started to condemn Israel.
and then what happens when hamas continues to get arms and continues to attack the israeli people?
Sorry but are you implying Biden is going to make America money by selling weapons to Israel, and also make money by sending aid to Gaza?
I have a 100 dollar auto donation to Trump’s campaign set up. My family was mad at me for that, so I also set up a 10 dollar donation to Biden. That didn’t seem to get them off my back, so in a few weeks I’m going to up my donation to Biden to 30 dollars. For some reason my family is still mad and wants me to stop donating to Trump. Can’t they just celebrate how awesome my donation to Biden is? AITA?
I didn’t realize the United States government was a dictatorship run by an individual.
Shitty analogy that misses the entire point of what I said to make a point that doesn’t apply to the situation.
Well when the individual is sidestepping congress to give more bombs to drop on children and then turning around and wishing to be celebrated for building a port for aid to those children he just helped bomb it sorta feels like maybe he shouldn’t be applauded.
Also im sure this port will only be used for aid and never be used as a navy base of any kind and will never house american military and be used as an excuse to cause more bombings in the region or anything of the sort
Literally the same shitty analogy. Even when explained why this style of analogy is bad, yall still try to reduce the government with 2 centuries of history down to the actions of a single man.
It’s like your trying to make this more complicated to somehow shift Bidens culpability away. We have three branches of government , the judiciary isn’t sending bombs for Isreal to drop on kids, the legislature is too incapable of doing anything at all, so that leaves us with the executive branch that gets to decide whether to send bombs to Isreal and what conditions to put on them. Currently, the executive branch is headed by Joseph R. Biden, and he makes those calls. Just like it was his decision to set up a temporary port for aid. What does 200 years of history have to do with anything? Is George Washington approving arms sales? Did Biden want to condition weapons transfers on Isreal adhering to humanitarian law, but the ghost of Richard Nixon wouldn’t let him?
The analogy, in my opinion, works to illustrate the point that just because you did one good thing, that doesn’t absolve you of responsibility for the much larger bad thing you are still doing. Biden getting aid in is good, I’m glad and support it and yada yada. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to forget that at the same time he is sending bombs (over 50% dropped on Gaza were unguided!) without any conditions on how Isreal uses them.
It’s like your trying to make this more complicated to somehow shift Bidens culpability away.
Yes. I’m the individual who made government a series of bodies and functions more complex than the operations of an individual.
That was me.
When the choices are: 1) profit, or 2) profit
Why not do both? /s
I’ve been asking for this. It feels kind of good, in a “it could be worse” sort of way, I guess. I hope the Israelis accidentally shell a jeep and cuss us out for parking there so that we can all agree to remove Netanyahu by force.
It’s happened before:
To which Hamas and/or the Israelis will probably start attacking it.
To which
Hamas and/orthe Israelis will probably start attacking it.FTFY
