They line up in front of a courthouse in southeastern France, from morning to evening, and have gathered in the thousands in cities across the country. They hold signs reading, “one rape every six minutes,” “not all men but always a man,” and “giving in is not consenting.”
They chant: “Rapist we see you, victim we believe you.”
Women across France are rallying in support of Gisèle Pelicot, a 72-year-old reluctant icon whose husband is on trial in the city of Avignon for systematically drugging her and inviting dozens of men, 50 of whom are now his co-defendants, into their home to rape her over nearly a decade.
The shocking case has sparked what many women in France call a long-overdue reckoning over “rape culture” and systemic sexism in the way the judicial system handles sexual violence.
And yet, what no-one wants to face is the fact that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
I mean, yes - let’s lock up convicted rapists. But if 50%of cross-gender rapists are women yet almost 100% of convicted rapists are men, there’s some seriously weapons-grade gender bigotry at play, there.
A legal system that is truly based on equality should see about a 50/50 split of male/female rapists convicted, and for largely equal time served as well.
So basically, “not all men and not all women” should have been the slogan in the first place.
So basically, “not all men and not all women” should have been the slogan in the first place.
Yes. That is a very even and equal statement that properly balances the reality of the situation.
But equality was never their goal. That’s why those who have rationally and logically studied the ideology call the practitioners female supremacists, and are likely to call themselves egalitarianists.
rationally and logically studied the ideology call the practitioners female supremacists,
Wow. That was remarkably mask off. You watch a lot of Ben Shapiro, buddy?
Ben Shapiro is a moron. And so is pretty much anyone who has ever punted the “alpha male” narrative.
What I do, exclusively, is listen to what “feminists” say, and compare it to not only reality, but also how any flip-side examples for men are perceived. From there it is clear that the ideology is one of gender supremacy. There is no other possible interpretation, because there is no equality in their objectives. Any “benefits” that men accrue from feminism are purely by happenstance and lucky accident, but the foundation and exclusive intent of any one incident has always been female-first and almost always to the intentional exclusion of men.
And what does that mean, you fill a document with feminist phrases and ctrl+v over every word ‘woman’ the word ‘man’? That is… wow, that is incredibly academic. I’m actually hit-stunned by how smart that is.
And what does that mean, you fill a document with feminist phrases and ctrl+v over every word ‘woman’ the word ‘man’? That is… wow, that is incredibly academic. I’m actually hit-stunned by how smart that is.
If that’s the best you can come up with, then you are just as bad as Ben Shapiro.
In the context of this post this is disgusting to bring up.
This doesn’t have any bearing on what this old lady was put through.
In the context of this comment section, and the image that was chosen to lead the article, it is not disgusting and it simply makes sense.
She is a fucking hero, she is brave and she gives hope to us rape victims. But if on the same breath you praise her and the people who support her, and dismiss a fuckton of rape victims just because the perpetrators of their particular rapes were women, then that is bound to raise a significant level of discomfort and take away from what the story should be, giving support to the victim of The Beast of Avignon and all rape victims, encouraging them to come forward.
Go make your own post about male victims then.
Oddly defensive response you have.
I think you are hand-picking numbers here. The most current CDC Report on Intimate Partner Violence does not support your claims. https://www.cdc.gov/nisvs/documentation/NISVSReportonIPV_2022.pdf
The report you picked excludes quite a lot of victims as it’s about intimite partner violence which it defines as:
The term, intimate partner violence, refers to any physical or sexual violence, stalking, and/or psychological aggression by a current or former dating partner or spouse.
For the full numbers not just for intimate partners you want this report https://www.cdc.gov/nisvs/documentation/nisvsReportonSexualViolence.pdf which confusingly has the same title. It states 2.3% of women raped in a 12 month timeframe and 0.3% of men being raped and 1.3% made to penetrate in the same timeframe, so 1.6% of men either raped or made to penetrate.
So for the first study, I have my emotionally abusive ex that would threaten suicide (at the drop of a hat, but also) when I wasn’t in the mood, and for the “full numbers” there’s the two women I never dated that raped me. Huh, neat. I wonder why the only three abusive women to exist in the world chose me. Couldn’t be that it’s more common than people think or anything, no waaaay.
I took a look at the CDC report. Those comparable numbers are only about the 12 months preceding the survey which is, while probably statistically significant, not the whole story. It’s interesting to see why there’s a jump in those numbers for the 12 months preceding, but otherwise if you look at lifetime numbers women are victimized at significantly higher rates than men.
an estimated 19.3% of women and 1.7% of men have been raped during their lifetimes
that’s being penetrated, I think it doesn’t include being made to penetrate, which is covered in other forms of sexual violence.
side note: I don’t know how the article got numbers for “being made to penetrate” specifically, the CDC article doesn’t seem to specifically say it. maybe I skimmed it wrong. I only saw the 1.6% of men reporting “unwanted sexual contact” in the last 12 months, which is compared to the women reporting at 2.2% of women, which is while still almost 40% higher, closer than lifetime experiences which are estimated at 27.3% vs 10.8%. Guess which is which.
An estimated 43.9% of women and 23.4% of men experienced other forms of sexual violence during their lifetimes, including being made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and noncontact unwanted sexual experiences.
This includes being made to penetrate and other things, again if you can find where the 1.6% comes from please let me know.
An estimated 15.2% of women and 5.7% of men have been a victim of stalking during their lifetimes
this is interestingly one of the categories where it is not as close in the last 12 months: women’s rate double men’s. not central to my overall point but it is surprising because if anything I expected this to be closer than other categories, considering social media making stalking easier. just a note.
here’s an interesting part about “always a man”:
women are predominantly predated by men in all forms, but men are predominantly made to penetrate and coerced by women (I guess this is expected more than men would be doing this?), while penetrated predominantly by men (I guess obvious) and suffering other forms of sexual predation including stalking by a relatively even rate of men and women.
That sounds like it all comes pretty close to “always a man”.
Those comparable numbers are only about the 12 months preceding the survey which is, while probably statistically significant, not the whole story.
How’s that relevant? It looks at one year and within that year the number of rape/made-to-penetrate victims is roughly equal for men and women. Unless there was something unusual happening that year or the same men are made to penetrate more often then women get raped, then if you extend the timeframe the numbers should change similarly for men and women.
side note: I don’t know how the article got numbers for “being made to penetrate” specifically, the CDC article doesn’t seem to specifically say it. maybe I skimmed it wrong.
From the 2011 study in the Results section:
For men, the lifetime prevalence of being made to penetrate a perpetrator was an estimated 6.7% (>7.6 million men), while an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey.
wow, your argument really becomes impenetrable once you concede to "unless"es and “if” and "should"s.
there is an extended timeline. it’s called lifetime. and it tells a different story.
about the stats: thanks for finding it, I mixed the numbers and was looking for the 1.6% … anyway, looking for lifetime numbers, if you compare women who have been raped vs men who were raped and made to penetrate combined, the numbers add up to 19.3% of women vs 1.7+6.7 = 8.4% of men assuming zero overlap. that’s still more than double the rate of men.
in the same section for sexual violence other than rape, women’s rates nearly double men’s in lifetime numbers. again for some reason much closer in the 12 months preceding.
sexual coercion: 12.5% vs 5.8% lifetime (more than double) and not that close in the 12 months as other categories, 2% vs 1.3% (1.5x approximately)
etc etc…
I don’t know what the fuck happened between 2010 and 2011 but the numbers for that year do not reflect lifetime experiences of people at all. it makes no sense to disregard the extended timeline and instead use the snippet to extrapolate.
that’s being penetrated, I think it doesn’t include being made to penetrate, which is covered in other forms of sexual violence.
Right, in many municipalities it’s impossible for a woman to be charged with rape for forcing someone to have sex with them through coercive means. Until that is no longer the case “men rape more than women” is like saying “you’re more likely to starve without food.” No shit, because definitionally woman legally cannot be charged with rape for raping.
You see how that skews the data, right? Sure “it’s all men” if you don’t count the women, why would that surprise anyone?
those cases are not relevant here. the data we’re talking about is not skewed. they cover all these other situations independent of municipality. also these are not numbers on reported cases (they’re included in the study) but estimated actual numbers.
With how unlikely men are to report (or sometimes, they don’t even realize they have been raped), I’m not sure how they can accurately estimate.
In any case, making it a gendered issue and lumping me, a victim, in with the perpetrators simply because I was born with a penis, and lumping my rapists in with the victims because they were born with vaginas, isn’t what I call “cool.” I’d much prefer if we made it a victims VS victimizers thing, rather than a men VS women thing, personally.
Furthermore this whole “women can’t rape men” thing needs to be fixed. I simply will not have the conversation about “who rapes who more” until it is fixed, by acknowledging it as a legitimate law I am erasing my own experiences and enabling others to do so.
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The share may differ - I’m not aware of it being equal and you bring up interesting stats right there - but regardless, men can absolutely be victims of all kinds of abuse, and we have to treat it seriously.
Yes, men forced to do what they don’t like or coerced to have sex is rape, and same for women.
Some American jurisdictions can’t even properly report a male victim of rape or sexual assault because their software is hard-coded to assign the victim as female and the perp as male.
Plus, the vast majority of men have been brainwashed into thinking that it is impossible for a woman to rape a man. So many of them don’t even see their rape as a rape, and frequently blame themselves.
And for the cherry on top, male rape victims can and frequently are forced to pay child support to their rapist if a child is conceived, thereby further traumatizing them. This happens even if the male victim was a minor - upon their 18th birthday they are hit with tens of thousands in arrears, and face jail time if they cannot immediately begin paying. Imagine - jailing a rape victim for the product of their rape!!
Think of how this would go down if the genders were swapped, and then ask yourself: why isn’t it going down like that as it currently is?
Because men don’t matter. Because men are trivially disposable. Because if men cannot provide something of value, they are worse than useless: they are a threat to society and need to be violently coerced into being useful. It’s why so many men are saying, “thanks, but no thanks” to the various “traditional” societal expectations of them (career, marriage, and even relationships entirely), and are going their own way. And I don’t blame them one bit.
I follow you, until the last part.
“Men don’t matter”, “women don’t matter” - those statements often seem to imply that the other gender is dominant and treats the other as disposable. This is not true - both men and women heavily suffer from bias, discrimination, and abuse - both in their own ways.
Traditional expectations hurt everybody, men and women, and should be thrown out the window. This includes a traditional concept that men are always perpetrators but not victims of abuse, among other things - something that is still commonly ignored, sometimes out of genuine ignorance, sometimes in bad faith.
“women don’t matter”
I have never heard that, anywhere within the last half a century. A statement like that would be seen as misogyny of the highest order, and would have the speaker publicly crucified on the altar of public opinion.
I mean, sure - it might be uttered in dark, hidden, ChristoFascist corners, but that isn’t spoken anywhere in public like the statement “kill all men” is widely lauded and celebrated by female supremacists.
Traditional expectations hurt everybody, men and women,
Then why have women been allowed to disgorge almost all of theirs, while men are being constantly nailed to the wall for theirs?
Women have been able to nearly completely release the “homemaker” status (yay! - honestly), but a man who wants to be a homemaker will nearly always remain a life-long bachelor. Having a prestigious, well-paying career (or, at least, the potential for one) is nearly always a woman’s first consideration in a man.
If a career-oriented man can (and frequently do) wife up some minimum-wage barista with oodles of student loans, why do career women almost always only look above their current economic level for mates? Because that is a reinforcement of traditional expectations.
Things along the lines of “women don’t matter” are commonly spoken by feminists much the same way you said a similar thing about men - as a statement that this gender group is a victim of modern society.
You wouldn’t hear “men don’t matter” in another context, either.
And I’m not saying that the pressure of traditional expectations is equal on women vs men, I don’t have what it takes to compare, so I won’t even try. I just state they hurt everyone, and you don’t have to sink one to raise the other.
Things along the lines of “women don’t matter” are commonly spoken by feminists
And yet - facts and evidence. In a western society, those are severely lacking from their argument, whereas the flip side is bleeding out everywhere. Hell, a saucy jaunt through any dating service - online or meatworld - is a severe cognitive dissonance to anyone trying to shill the “women don’t matter” bullshit, as beyond the top-2% of men, women have ALL the power in the dating world.
I just thank the fates that I left the dating scene behind me almost three decades ago. From what I can see, things have gotten much, much worse for men since then, and it was already horrid back then.
Then there is the gender sentencing gap in the legal system, which is three times larger than the wealth sentencing gap, and seven times larger than the racial sentencing gap. And no, this is taking into account the exact same crime with the exact same damages.
Yes, in the dating sphere women do wield more power. They, however, are also more common victims of stalking, more commonly chased by men they never asked for.
Sentencing gap is also very real.
But then there’s a pay gap, lower representation in politics (and also patriarchal traditions of diplomacy requiring high-ranking female politicians to show themselves as rough and cold to uphold their image), the common expectation to bear and rise children almost singlehandedly (despite also having to work full-time), etc. etc.
Women still face many real issues, and so do men. It’s just that men’s rights is a newer concept and it takes a lot of effort to overcome things that are sometimes as basic as the right to refuse sex.
USA Today - News Source Context (Click to view Full Report)
Information for USA Today:
MBFC: Left-Center - Credibility: High - Factual Reporting: Mostly Factual - United States of America
Wikipedia about this sourceMods, I know you’re in this thread, why haven’t you banned this paid advertisement spam bot that nobody wants?
Some of us find it useful, although a bit excessive sometimes, not a mod here, just a random user who likes looking at the biases so I don’t waste my time on articles to what could easily be equated to “MAGA.com” at a glance, instead of actively having to go look for resources.
Please be aware that the ratings are literally just based on the feelings of one dude. He wraps it up in pseudo-scientific rigor to try to give himself more authority but it’s still just one dude’s opinion, and he tends to be pretty conservative/MAGA-y.
Oh, that is something I was not aware of, which is important information. I thought it was crowd sourced and fact checked. I hate disingenuous stuff.
Thank you, I truly had no idea.
Where is all this passion for male victims of rape when people aren’t protesting the rape of a woman or women in general?
This is a rhetorical question
Came here to see discussions about the truly insane case mentioned in the article. Actually found an entire comment section full of ‘not all men’ vs ‘basically all men’ threads
Do I want to scroll down? Nah, not really.
I’ll just leave this here: No, not all men are rapists. Yes, all men should stand up to them. It’s that simple and if you deviate from that formula you dive into rape culture or misandry, depending, are part of the problem, actively, passively, in one way or the other.
As a man, have this attitude (there’s subtitles).
As a woman… “Dudes it’s only an embellishment” “noone thinks ‘all men’ is meant seriously” STFU you’re being catty you know exactly how often women use covert aggression, use plausible deniability to get away with the vilest shit, even if you don’t mean it like that right now, in this instance, it’s still how it’s perceived, and no, not all men deserve to be treated like that. So cut it out.
Then maybe you should understand that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
Now consider: how many women do you see convicted and jailed for rape?
crickets
That’s the sound of massive gender bigotry in play, right there - 50% of all cross-gender rapists getting away Scott-free, purely by virtue of their gender.
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His point is that is not what the article is about. It’s off-topic.
I get that you’re passionate about getting your point across but it’s swamping the discussion a bit.
It’s not off topic. If you link me to a YouTube video with a sponsor that really sucks, I’m gonna talk about how that sponsor sucks. You can’t just tack on some garbage and be all “just ignore that part, it’s not up for debate.”
I understand that it merits discussion but every thread on this post is about that aspect, and that’s frankly a bit much.
Show me a sign that’s demonizing me, and I’m gonna focus on that rather than whatever they’re pretending the sign is about. You teach your boys that their feelings don’t matter and that they’re bad out the gate and that’s how they’re gonna treat you when they’re older.
You teach your boys that their feelings don’t matter and that they’re bad out the gate
Cue mandatory anti-rape training at higher ed, but only for men, ramming home the myth that men are the source of all of society’s ills and the villain in all possible crimes.
Whoa that escalated quickly, and is entirely not about what I was saying.
Well if you wanna be on topic, address the problem instead of making it worse. We’re in here criticizing those people making it worse. Quit defending their bullshit.
The internet loves to argue with a generalization that is only true 9,999 times out of ten thousand.
Help me with the math on this, if “it’s always men” 9,999 out of 10,000 times, and I’ve personally been raped by two women, what’re my odds on that? I must be getting all the rape the women of the world can dish out then, huh?
Couldn’t possibly be that men seldom report, seldom are taken seriously when they do, and even when they are taken seriously in many places women can’t legally “rape” so the best they can get a slap on the wrist for is “Sexual Assault” for forcing men to have sex with them? Could it? No waaaaayyyyy.
Instead of letting my numbers make you feel small, perhaps think for a second how enormous the problem of male sexual assault is. That’s the math help you need here.
I agree, male sexual assault is a problem and nobody is talking about it. In fact when we (males who have been sexually assaulted) try and, not even “be included,” just “not be excluded,” we’re told to sit down and shut up, we’re only 4% so we don’t matter, we must’ve liked it if our body responded naturally to stimulus, she was hot anyway so we’re lucky, and quit being a pussy." In fact legally in my area and many more the worst the women who forced me to have sex with them even could be charged with is sexual assault becausr technically “rape” requires penetration. Isn’t that fucked up?
How 'bout instead of trying to silence male victims of sexual assault when they’re rightfully indignant about being excluded you do a little soul searching and try and realize why we “always have to make the conversation about us” when people write signs like “not all men but always a man,” m’kay? Maybe that introspection will lead you to opinions like “rape is possible for women to commit, and it’s bad when they do it too, AND we should speak for all victims of all genders or lack thereof, and against all abusers of all genders or lack thereof, rather than ‘men bad women good nonbinary irrelevant.’”
How 'bout instead of trying to silence male victims of sexual assault when they’re rightfully indignant about being excluded you do a little soul searching
Dude you’re desperately trying to make this about you and aiming all your complaints about society at me when I have done exactly nothing you describe.
Here we are, in a thread about a woman being raped, with you lecturing me about how much male rape matters. That just says everything right there.
If you think no one online talks about or cares about male rape then you just aren’t listening. It’s one of Reddit’s favorite topics. They never miss a chance to highlight male rape, and threads about it get 100x the love of those discussing the problem of rape by males. Your issue is, in a word, overrepresented if anything.
You matter. Your trauma matters. You really seem to need to hear that. But yeah your assault is not in fact interchangeable with that of women. Theirs is the result of systematic devaluing and oppression of women across our culture that makes assault almost inevitable. Yours is a deplorable act of violence but not continuous with the entire fabric of our society.
In other words, we’re set up to rape females. And so we’d better talk about that. What do we do to prevent much more rare and isolated incidents of violence? I’m really not sure how much we have to say about that.
Anyway I won’t reply again or read replies. It’s been said.
“Overrepresented”
“Always a man.”
Yeah, I guess it has been said. Fuck me for calling out bullshit when I see it, I should just sit down and shut up again, huh?
Good, don’t reply.
Fuck off. I was abused by my mother. She looks like the kind of trash that would holf a sign like that.
My heart breaks for her. I’m glad she gets to see the support of those around her while going through this. And Jesus fuck, how can you even do that to someone? I just cannot wrap my mind of being able to hurt someone like that, and then to keep doing that, and just go on living life. I’m not religious, but I hope that man burns in hell.
Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.
Ok, so not so men but 96% of perpetrators are men.
This very precise statistic comes from a single study made in bad faith, over 20 years ago. If you want to read a more recent study, with linked sources, feel free to check https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/
Dude just shut the fuck up about that study xD most rape is done by men towards women, quit acting like that’s just not the case. Women deserve to not be raped, can you just say that with no qualifiers?
I would prefer to say, nobody deserves to be raped, and as long as people keep giving that flawed statistic that harms both male and female victims of rape, I have no reason not to share it.
That kind of disregard is what keeps most female child rapists out of jail, or nets them far lesser sentences.
Women deserve to not be raped, can you just say that with no qualifiers?
Can you say that without qualifiers? NOBODY deserves to be raped, including men. How ironic can you get?
Nobody deserves to get raped. You can stop worrying now :3
Yes that’s why you say “dude shut the fuck up” to male victims and minimize their experiences, and completely leave them out of your “doesn’t deserve to be raped” category until called out.
Dude just shut the fuck up about that study xD most rape is done by men towards women, quit acting like that’s just not the case. Women deserve to not be raped, can you just say that with no qualifiers?
How 'bout you shut the fuck up and let male victims share their feelings and experiences too.
How about you stop shitting on female victims of sexual violence just bc they’re not nice enough for you? You can have your own protest if you need it so bad, stop shitting on the one that’s actually happening. It makes it crystal clear that you don’t give a shit about anybody being raped. You’re just an meninist whining about men’s rights as an attempt to shut down support for women’s movements, no better then terfs who pretend to give a shit about women as an excuse to shit on trans people
How 'bout you stop shitting on male victims of sexual abuse because we’re not nice enough for you? FOH with that “you don’t matter” bullshit, I do matter whether you agree or not, and you are GODDAMN WELL gonna hear about it! You’re despicable, reevaluate your views.
I can, but it doesn’t get much more “all lives matter” than coming to a post about women protesting about the disproportionate sexual violence they face and saying “men get raped TOO so fuck you for advocating for yourself and having a sign that offends me”
That percentage came from the 2021 report by the French government. This is not outdated information. And it’s pertains to France not America.
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Reported.
actually decent men are aware that they are complicit by their very existence as men under the patriarchy, and invest their energy in being better and calling out their fellow men to try and improve your collective reputation
This is bald-faced, shameless bigotry and reflects a real lack of self awareness
I do do that for approximately those reasons. And I want to slap the fuck out of whoever wrote this text just as much as you.
No, no one is complicit in anything by their very existence. You don’t get to blame people for other people doing something bad in a group they didn’t choose to belong to.
actually decent men are aware that they are complicit by their very existence as men under the patriarchy
Could you fucking imagine saying this about any other group of people
Sure can. There’s a lot of “blaming citizens of countries for things they have no say in” nowadays
guys always is an embellishment. it’s almost funny that not all men became not always men. obviously not always men but if you think the numbers are comparable you’re living in a fantasy land.
The numbers are also suppressed for men because we are not believed or taken seriously whereas women are typically believed by default.
I mean even considering that. if we magically learned the real numbers today there should still be a grand canyon between them. if you think it’s any close you’re either fooling yourself or biased by personal trauma.
just as a note: the argument I’m making is not based on any essential characteristics of men vs women. I’m not arguing men are biologically coded to SA more or whatever. it’s about societal conditions. conditions which, by the way, contribute to the problem you’re talking about.
What ratio do you think has any meaning? What if the meaning is just that men have a higher “success rate” for just being better at it or even just being scarier. What if it just means men are more often consenting where they otherwise shouldn’t be?
I don’t remember calling anything meaningless so I don’t get your first question.
also if men have a better success rate that makes them more of a problem, don’t really get what the argument is there
also don’t understand what you mean consenting where they shouldn’t be. you either consent or don’t. if you’re alluding to coercion that’s not consent and it shouldn’t be named as such. otherwise I don’t get what you mean at all.
but if you think the numbers are comparable you’re living in a fantasy land.
The CDC - the largest medical org on the f**king planet - has clearly established that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
We’re not the ones living in fantasy land – you are, by either ignorance or malice. Which is your source of gender bigotry and misandry?
Most men never report, or if they do it’s ignored. I’ve only told one person irl about the 2x it’s happened to me (both times I was forced by women btw, how’s that for “it’s always men” hmm?)
MAYBE if whenever we claim “it’s all men” or “it’s always men” or some such sentiment “it always devolves into a discussion about how it’s not all men,” MAYBE it’s time to stop doing that so the conversation can fucking progress? Nah let’s keep up the tribalism, it’s more fun to sow division than actually work on the issue at hand. Ffs.
I think it’s more that as a non rapist I don’t really take it personally when women talk about concerns about the general attitude they receive from men.
As a non-rapist, I’m sick of constantly being seen as a high-risk individual just for having a penis despite dedicating a lot of attention to consent and being generally a highly empathetic person.
People who know me well trust me and see me as a very safe and gentle person - but in the outside world, I’m equated with rapists around a random trait.
well yeah. are you suggesting women should just trust you because you seem nice? their interactions with men from the moment they first set foot out their door suggests otherwise. to them you are high risk until they know you. you admit that once people know you they do trust you do why are you being so offended that people who don’t know you don’t? they shouldn’t.
you shouldn’t trust any woman that she won’t do anything bad to you either, but the fact remains that you’re in much less of a risk in that regard than a random woman around a random man. the mere notion that this is in any way an equivalent risk is ridiculous.
The thing is, the amount of fear displayed against men is disproportional to the actual risk they pose. This probably has cultural roots, as awareness of such risks turned into an overreaction.
More and more research comes out showing women are fully capable of abusive behavior and display it much more often that we’ve come to believe, yet as little light is shed on this in the public eye, women are still perceived as much more safe, which isn’t true either.
And besides, “men” are too big and diverse of a group to reasonably tie to any possible behavior.
I specifically noted that I don’t believe in any essential differences between men and women. this is all societal, and patriarchy plays a big role not only in the predation of women but also men and the subsequent lack of reporting.
but in the current society women are safer than men. I have never set foot out my door and considered the possibility of being sexually harassed. women do it every time, and no, not just because our perceptions are skewed, but because we have different experiences.
this is anecdotal because i can’t do studies. most of the time defenses are put up by women because they actually go through something. not because they start life that way.
And I specifically meant to say we gain ever increasing knowledge that women are not safer in many regards - not just inherently, but overall. While brute-force attacks against men are less common, harassment, coercion, mental abuse and manipulations are rampant, and are weaponized against everyone, including strangers. (With that being said, some women, especially armed, do engage in direct physical abuse, and men can use mental one).
And I wonder what part of fears average woman faces is personal experience vs culture and upbringing. Same events can be interpreted in many different ways depending on how you are preconditioned, and if we’d train men to be wary of women, we’d certainly see more fears spread around. (Mind you, I do not say women do not face real and clear instances of abuse; some do!)
Well maybe it takes being raped by two different woman before you start feeling bad about being called a rapist for existing with penis despite being a victim. In any case your feelings are not universal and you don’t get to minimize my experiences and tell me how to feel about being categorized with the aggressors while the people who raped ME are categorized with the “only victims who can do no wrong” gender.
this doesn’t at all follow my comment so I assume you replied by accident. you’re just airing grievances, which is your right, but it’s a non sequitur.
I think it’s more that as a non rapist I don’t really take it personally when women talk about concerns about the general attitude they receive from men.
Basically what I’m saying is, maybe you don’t take it personally because you haven’t been raped by women before, but I do take it personally because I have.
50 codefendants in a case against one woman? How horrific.
Thank you to the French women doing this. However, since this is France, my biggest worry is this will be shot down with a big red flag/note saying:
How can we fix this when the government keeps protecting the real rapists: minorities
Terrible fucking sign and tone deaf af
Imagine being the victim of a female pedophile and seeing that sign
‘Not all men but always a man’ seems to marginalise victims of female rapists, which do exist.
Otherwise, I’m absolutely in favour of rehabilitation, and if necessary, isolation of rapists - of all genders. I hope the court/government can be made to agree
From the article:
The number of sexual assault victims in France increased by 33% in 2021 and nearly doubled from 2017, according to a government report. Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.
It seems that sexual violence has been hidden in plain sight and downplayed heavily by the police and justice system, or simply socially accepted.
It’s estimated 10% of people have been victim of incest, here in France. How can you build something safe based on that.
I don’t believe our current justice system allows for proper rehabilitation. Second offense for such crimes are still very high (10%?).
IMHO It’s a nation wide educational failure and our politicians aren’t really keen on fixing this, for now.
How does France legally define rape ?
If its a gendered definition then the statistics are incorrect because rape can be committed by both sexes
These statistics are more biased by our police not accepting the victims’ complaints than our justice’s definition, or also what we see as socially acceptable. That’s why these stats have risen so much in the recent years.
Heck our president met his wife when he was a minor and she was his school teacher, we have ex high government official mixed in incest stories…
As much as it’s false to say it’s always men, these numbers exist more as a reflection of our justice system and shouldn’t be used to infer stats on the society as a whole.
Were you responding to something specific I said or just providing more facts?
Just providing more facts on the “all men” plus maybe a bit more context on the situation here.
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If you flag the same post multiple times again, you will be banned.
Look flyingsquid,
It’s not cool to publically expose reports that can be sensitive in nature and can put a target on a users back for what they report which can be especially dangerous if people find out the real life details on a user on lemmy and target them in real life or do something like swatting which can get someone seriously hurt or killed
A private message would be a lot better for communicating with users
You cannot flag the same post multiple times on Lemmy.
You’re under the impression it is because it’s an exact copy paste comment multiple times in the same post which is the reason I flagged it as spam…
Keep in mind those numbers don’t perfectly reflect reality though. Probably a few percents off in favor of women
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Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.
Oh yes that 4% really really must be stopped.
Nice try from an overly quoted study done on bad faith, here is a better one that shows, with sources, that said study is incorrect.
From your article, “In fact, 96 percent of women who report rape or sexual assault in the NCVS were abused by men.”
I like how he talks about the “overly quoted study” (which is not actually where the statistic in the article comes from, but whatever) and yet he has posted this same article literally everywhere in here as a way of justifying dismissal of the fact that nearly all rapes and sexual assaults are committed by men.
Yes.
All of it should be. Why the fuck shouldn’t it be stopped too? Wtf?
‘Not all men but always a man’ seems to marginalise victims of female rapists, which do exist.
Oh, it’s much worse than that: the CDC - the largest medical org on the f**king planet - has clearly established that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
50% of all cross-gender rapists are women, and yet almost 100% of all convicted rapists are men.
What an exemplary case of systemic gender bigotry and misandry in society and the legal establishment.
Its a shame an obviously inflammatory sign and clickbait seeking article image has made it so that the discussion is mostly off topic.
Its insane and the whole evil piece of shit that perpetrated his kink of having multiple people raped by omission and literal drugging and rape gets away from conversations by the obvious bullshit of absolutes is insane to me. how about no victim blaming on either side and recognition that rape is awful abuse of power dynamics that occur whenever its viewed as possible.
But also this post should probably be removed because that sign is meant to cause this kinda of angry response and it leads into a lot of hurt victims and happily ignorant people hand waving it away.
Husband aside, that’s 50 separate people who thought this was okay. Ffs
Because he said it was their kink to them.
Allegedly, they didn’t. Multiple men were contacted through a swingers website, and allegedly led to believe she was a willing participant pretending to be asleep, instead of what she really was, the victim of a disgusting monster, drugged and undressed without her knowledge, for the pleasure of a sick monster.
To the point where one of her abusers, fully aware of what he did, wrote to her to apologize from jail, realizing what he had done under false pretenses, and aware that by not doing his due diligence, he raped her in the literal sense of the word.
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This is making me really angry. They knowingly and willingly had sex with her without getting her consent because they didn’t believe it was important enough. They had no problem with someone else speaking for her. This is part of what she is trying to bring attention to and you are pretending these men are victims. I am disgusted. Due diligence? Really? This is rape not a fucking business transaction. The fact that they could be so careless about her bodily autonomy and need no consent from her is damning of them and of you for defending them. Fuck everything about this.
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I would hope that one that would be interested in this type of stuff would be meeting the affected party first :/
So would I, and I also wish nobody did meth. A lot of dangerous things have been normalized by many people, to the point where they get so used to them, that they seem normal and relatively harmless to them, only because their “normal” is so fucking far from the socially acceptable normal.
I think I would have more sympathy with those focusing on the “not all men but always a man” sign if this weren’t in the context of a woman being drugged by her husband and then said husband inviting about 50 random men to rape her, over 10 years.
One of the worst times to advocate for men’s rights/issues is when everyone is talking about the heinous crimes a bunch of men have done. Especially if the comments you’re leaving are focusing on how women rape just as much as men do, etc.
I agree with you. Yes, this is not the time nor the place to go full on men’s rights activism, 100% correct.
But if someone tells a rape victim his experience does not account because he part of the 4%, then nobody won anything at all, and I will speak my mind about such a heinous statement, the same way I will speak my mind about any one telling Woman shit like “It happened bc you dressed so seductive”, "You sure he heard you saying No?"etc etc. .
Absolutely agreed.
Something I used to hear regarding feminism was that it also fought for men’s rights even if indirectly for equality purposes. While I wouldn’t say it’s accurate of the movement now, I will say that it’d be a nice thing for men’s rights groups to pick up. If these movements want to be heard then they must be willing to listen to the voices of women and be willing to bring their own to justice.
Yo, feminists have been leading the charge on shit like paternity leave (FMLA was feminists), battered men’s shelters (now there’s four! In the country!) and getting equality of rulings on spousal abuse or visitation rights. Don’t buy into the alt-right BS about how the movement used to be good but now it’s just full of all those self-centered women, and I only hate the current version. It’s a really common line, and it’s bullshit.
I’ll be completely honest: I don’t really know which organizations/movements are doing what these days. There’s too much to keep track of. The groups where I am aren’t particularly kind though. That’s coming from my knowledge of an experience with a family member’s divorce, so I apologize for being misinformed.
I just do what I think is right. It’s all I have energy for.
As a modern feminist I think that’s one of the differences between the third and fourth waves. The third wave (and early second wave) had a strong emphasis on “feminism is for everyone” and was much more “theory based” if that makes sense. The fourth wave is generally understood to be defined by the era of mass social media. It’s been hardened by things like gamergate, the me too movement, and the rabid opposition to the third wave by reactionary men refusing to accept that it was the most pro man wave feminism saw. I don’t think it’s tactically wise or theoretically sound, but I get and feel the anger. That said I’m generally more pro third wave as a whole, including thinking bell hooks really understood how patriarchy negatively impacts men.
But yeah, modern feminist culture is jaded and angry, and for good reason. And I do agree that a men’s movement to deal with y’all’s issues would be incredibly helpful so long as you’re able to keep the reactionary voices out of it. Because from this woman’s perspective, a lot of men really need to develop friendships based on mutual care and understanding. Women can’t fix the malaise men are currently showing, and reactionaries can only make it worse.
One of the worst times to advocate for men’s rights/issues is when everyone is talking about the heinous crimes a bunch of men have done. Especially if the comments you’re leaving are focusing on how women rape just as much as men do, etc.
Agreed. Unfortunately there’s always gonna be a whataboutism as long as men feel unheard…
People can lose empathy when they think the world is ignoring them. It’s taken me years to move on from people telling me to “man up” or “get over it” about my SA.
I really hope that at some point male victims of sexual assault will work to create a movement of support. It’s not ok that y’all get told to man up, and it’s not ok that y’all are often used as a way to shut down discussions of sexual violence against women.
