But yeah every major studio sees these games and thinks underpaying devs, union busting, and AI garbage are gonna get them there somehow.
Meanwhile Steam keeps making self-made millionaires who busted ass on a passion project people adore for years. Like the Balatro guy, it makes me happy to think about and I hope he’s doing well.
Because aaa developers are in the business of the business of making games. As in financing, shuffling money, stock appreciation, selling assets at opportune times, etc… They are no longer interested in making games, they’re trying to make infinite money through an established ecosystem.
The 2D sidescroller base that’s at the foundation of Metroidvanias is quite a bit older than that, though, so I think it’s fair to call it an older genre. Even though it is fairly evergreen.
The Castlevania date is a little misleading, however.
Castlevania changed from a simple linear level-based side-scroller to the open world exploration, progression, and backtracking formula of the Metroidvania genre with Symphony of the Night in 1997.
I mean “arcade” games are older than most internet users. FPS and MMORPGs older than half for sure.
Platformers are kind of arcade, but not just arcade. They defs hold a special place in the hearts of anyone who experienced the peak of online flash games.
I know VR is technical a platform not a sub-genre but there has to be something uniquely VR that is objectively a “younger genre”.
Would Pacman VR still be an arcade game? Not sure lol.
Dude, platformers like Hollow Knight were popular in arcades back in the 80s and d early 90s. Contra (87) and Metal Slug (96) are the first two that came to mind but there were tons of others.
They were literally arcade games and adapted to new mediums like home gaming systems and computers.
Totally. I wasn’t saying platformers were invented in the 00s. I was saying games like pong and space invaders technically predate platformers despite both of them being arcade games.
Please remember I was trying to answer he question, “When is a genre old”. Which is somewhat difficult with older genre’s that evolved in tandem with each other.
How long until it gets good? I spent about 90 minutes on it last week, because the Silksong hype was rolling hard and I didnt want to get left behind, but it just felt like fumbling around and nothing really happening.
Is it just not for me or did I not reach the good bits yet?
If you don’t like Hollow Knight by the time you get to the big tower in the center of the city, you aren’t going to like HK. Been a minute, but by then you should have one or two mobility skills and have fought 2 or 3 bosses.
The game REALLY opens up when you get even more mobility skills and has some of the best traversal in my opinion. And the bosses… I think a lot of the bosses are samey and meh (unless you fight the hard modes) but the “DLC” areas are REAL good.
But yeah. If you aren’t vibing by the time you are climbing the tower then you just don’t like it. And that is perfectly fine.
The biggest tip to newbies though: Listen for the sound of someone muttering and look for paper on the ground. That is how you find the map merchant. I think it is immensely stupid that you have to find the map merchant to get an area map but… that is the game.
I would say if you’re through Fungal Wastes and you’re not feeling it then it’s probably not for you. I usually don’t recommend the city as a decision point on the off chance someone stumbles into deepnest first. Once you go into Deepnest you can’t come back the same way, so you pretty much have to do a ring around the rosie and enter the city from the east. Which is a cool first time experience but definitely not for everyone.
It also doesn’t click for me at first but when it click it click. I have to spend i think about 1 or 2 hours playing it not enjoying it, and then the game just suck me in till i wander every corner of it, played it twice to get a good ending.
But if it doesn’t click, i think it just isn’t for you.
I appreciate the class conscious sentiment… but this game has 500k players right now. So ~$10,000,000 in sales in 24 hours… for a game that probably had a budget under 200k.
I doubt it was under $200k. Paying 3 devs for 7 years is likely $75-100k each per year, or around $700k on just one salary, which they paid with their sales from HK. Then they had to pay the composer, localizers, bug testers, etc etc. it’s definitely still low budget, but not as much as the first one.
I don’t even like the game…or really any of this style of games where you run back and forth over the same terrain over and over and over again for hours looking for a hole you haven’t been through yet.
But I do appreciate what is essentially a relic of the past: A game that is simple, beautiful (especially on OLED), inexpensive, can run on anything, runs completely offline, and doesn’t contain any ads or microtransactions or rootkits or accounts or spyware or invasive DRM. You literally just pay for the game and get the game, which is so insanely uncommon these days for games of this caliber.
.or really any of this style of games where you run back and forth over the same terrain over and over and over again for hours looking for a hole you haven’t been through yet.
I mean, yes, every studio wants to hit the jackpot and release a solid game that becomes a Movement that can fund about 8 years of development turning a stretch goal DLC into a full game.
Like, I get the intent. But all you did was say “devs should make good games”.
We have PLENTY of examples of why “made good video game” does not equate to “good at negotiating business contracts and having an HR team”. Blizzard being a “great” example of that.
Also: I know the meaning has long since died but Team Cherry are NOT a “AAA” studio. They are a small indie team with officially less than ten headcount (but that tends to not include contractors). They aren’t going to make a GTA or Call of Duty.
I dont understand what you’re trying to argue. The person you responded to made a point about Major studios trying to make a hit… but focusing on business principles over actual game production.
You responded by boiling it down to “Devs should make better games” which wasn’t close to approaching the point they were making.
My point was that devs are not always the ones in control, and trying to simplify a point about business majors running studios into the ground is somehow about the development team being bad is missing the point by a parser.
No one said Team Cherry was a AAA studio. At this point of the comment chain, no one had said anything about them at all until you brought it up. No one is trying to disparage your fanboyism.
This is a thread about Silksong. A game that is a sequel to Hollow Knight. Both were made by Team Cherry.
But sure. If every single major studio were actually a tiny indie studio that could be run indefinitely because of previous success AND required no corporate management at all and consisted entirely of Good People then we would live in a utopia.
Is this your first time on an internet forum? Or the internet in general? Topics often drift. Just because the post is about something doesn’t mean every single thing in the comments is going to be explicitly about that.
Steam (and PC in general) just lends itself to indie games more, which is good. It could do better, but overall there’s a lot of great games that get the recognition they deserve. Triple A finds most of it’s success on consoles, where they can easily market it on the front page of the console, rather than just on the store.
But PC is (unfortunately?) really getting mainstream now, so we are starting to see a lot morals thrown out the window by consumers just to play the latest AAA slop too.
Hot damn, not bad
But yeah every major studio sees these games and thinks underpaying devs, union busting, and AI garbage are gonna get them there somehow.
Meanwhile Steam keeps making self-made millionaires who busted ass on a passion project people adore for years. Like the Balatro guy, it makes me happy to think about and I hope he’s doing well.
Because aaa developers are in the business of the business of making games. As in financing, shuffling money, stock appreciation, selling assets at opportune times, etc… They are no longer interested in making games, they’re trying to make infinite money through an established ecosystem.
I have no clue what Hollow Knight is other than than individual people being pumped for this silksong thing. No advertising. No “hype train”.
Here’s hoping success stories like this shake some sense into the AAA gaming industry.
Hollow Knight is amazing. If you’re into platformers or metroidvanias it’s a must play.
I wasn’t really into metroidvanias, but I still loved Hollow Knight and put hundreds of hours into it.
I certainly was when I was younger… Good ole Game Boy Color. Glad to see older genre’s are still going strong!
Wait… Older genres? Never thought of it that way but it is true that there are some new ones. When is a genre old? 20 years, 30 years?
The 2D sidescroller base that’s at the foundation of Metroidvanias is quite a bit older than that, though, so I think it’s fair to call it an older genre. Even though it is fairly evergreen.
Metroid (1986) and Castlevania (1986) comprise the portmanteau that is “Metroidvania”.
The Castlevania date is a little misleading, however.
Castlevania changed from a simple linear level-based side-scroller to the open world exploration, progression, and backtracking formula of the Metroidvania genre with Symphony of the Night in 1997.
Yeah. Technically Castlevania is a Metroidalike.
Hm. I’d never considered that.
I mean “arcade” games are older than most internet users. FPS and MMORPGs older than half for sure.
Platformers are kind of arcade, but not just arcade. They defs hold a special place in the hearts of anyone who experienced the peak of online flash games.
I know VR is technical a platform not a sub-genre but there has to be something uniquely VR that is objectively a “younger genre”.
Would Pacman VR still be an arcade game? Not sure lol.
Dude, platformers like Hollow Knight were popular in arcades back in the 80s and d early 90s. Contra (87) and Metal Slug (96) are the first two that came to mind but there were tons of others.
They were literally arcade games and adapted to new mediums like home gaming systems and computers.
Totally. I wasn’t saying platformers were invented in the 00s. I was saying games like pong and space invaders technically predate platformers despite both of them being arcade games.
Please remember I was trying to answer he question, “When is a genre old”. Which is somewhat difficult with older genre’s that evolved in tandem with each other.
30+ years is old for sure, and platforms fit in that range.
20+ years could be debated, but I consider that old too.
Being old is not a negative, just a description about how long something has been around.
How long until it gets good? I spent about 90 minutes on it last week, because the Silksong hype was rolling hard and I didnt want to get left behind, but it just felt like fumbling around and nothing really happening.
Is it just not for me or did I not reach the good bits yet?
If you don’t like Hollow Knight by the time you get to the big tower in the center of the city, you aren’t going to like HK. Been a minute, but by then you should have one or two mobility skills and have fought 2 or 3 bosses.
The game REALLY opens up when you get even more mobility skills and has some of the best traversal in my opinion. And the bosses… I think a lot of the bosses are samey and meh (unless you fight the hard modes) but the “DLC” areas are REAL good.
But yeah. If you aren’t vibing by the time you are climbing the tower then you just don’t like it. And that is perfectly fine.
The biggest tip to newbies though: Listen for the sound of someone muttering and look for paper on the ground. That is how you find the map merchant. I think it is immensely stupid that you have to find the map merchant to get an area map but… that is the game.
I would say if you’re through Fungal Wastes and you’re not feeling it then it’s probably not for you. I usually don’t recommend the city as a decision point on the off chance someone stumbles into deepnest first. Once you go into Deepnest you can’t come back the same way, so you pretty much have to do a ring around the rosie and enter the city from the east. Which is a cool first time experience but definitely not for everyone.
It also doesn’t click for me at first but when it click it click. I have to spend i think about 1 or 2 hours playing it not enjoying it, and then the game just suck me in till i wander every corner of it, played it twice to get a good ending.
But if it doesn’t click, i think it just isn’t for you.
I’m enjoying following a walkthrough just to know where to go.
For me, that point is when I’m frustrated enough by the game…
After the first boss fight. The game then removes your training wheels and you do whatever you want, in whatever order you want.
It tough at the beginning until you get the hang of it, like playing Doom on Nightmare mode.
Also, it’s punishingly difficult
The hype for silksong has been going so long that it’s become a meme🤡. Just because it’s not as obvious anymore doesn’t mean it no longer exists.
Unless someone brings it up during their next golf game, the executive class will literally never hear about this game.
I appreciate the class conscious sentiment… but this game has 500k players right now. So ~$10,000,000 in sales in 24 hours… for a game that probably had a budget under 200k.
https://steamdb.info/charts/
It’s funny that Hollow Knight is also in top 20 on Steam right now with 50k players.
I doubt it was under $200k. Paying 3 devs for 7 years is likely $75-100k each per year, or around $700k on just one salary, which they paid with their sales from HK. Then they had to pay the composer, localizers, bug testers, etc etc. it’s definitely still low budget, but not as much as the first one.
Okay lets make it a 2 Million budget with 10Million sales in 24h. The point remains… greedy fucks are going to notice this.
There’s definitely a “hype train” and I’m not sure how you’re involved in the community at all and managed to miss it haha
Just trying to say nice things about the game you like eh
As I said I know nothing.
Hype trains by my definition are more like what you see with Call of Duty or AAA games… where it’s fucking everywhere.
The only thing I’m seeing is organic(afaict) hollow night posts from real fans.
I don’t even like the game…or really any of this style of games where you run back and forth over the same terrain over and over and over again for hours looking for a hole you haven’t been through yet.
But I do appreciate what is essentially a relic of the past: A game that is simple, beautiful (especially on OLED), inexpensive, can run on anything, runs completely offline, and doesn’t contain any ads or microtransactions or rootkits or accounts or spyware or invasive DRM. You literally just pay for the game and get the game, which is so insanely uncommon these days for games of this caliber.
HAAH me to.
I heard him, the DF brothers and Concerned Ape are all collaborating on a line of programmer desks.
Busted ass means farting lol, I think you meant busted their ass.
deleted by creator
Yes that’s what I said, did you read what I wrote?
deleted by creator
There’s a difference. See https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bust+ass (ignore the first entry, it’s incorrect :))
I mean, yes, every studio wants to hit the jackpot and release a solid game that becomes a Movement that can fund about 8 years of development turning a stretch goal DLC into a full game.
Like, I get the intent. But all you did was say “devs should make good games”.
The difference is that devs arent the ones in control in most AAA studios.
Is it?
We have PLENTY of examples of why “made good video game” does not equate to “good at negotiating business contracts and having an HR team”. Blizzard being a “great” example of that.
Also: I know the meaning has long since died but Team Cherry are NOT a “AAA” studio. They are a small indie team with officially less than ten headcount (but that tends to not include contractors). They aren’t going to make a GTA or Call of Duty.
I dont understand what you’re trying to argue. The person you responded to made a point about Major studios trying to make a hit… but focusing on business principles over actual game production.
You responded by boiling it down to “Devs should make better games” which wasn’t close to approaching the point they were making.
My point was that devs are not always the ones in control, and trying to simplify a point about business majors running studios into the ground is somehow about the development team being bad is missing the point by a parser.
No one said Team Cherry was a AAA studio. At this point of the comment chain, no one had said anything about them at all until you brought it up. No one is trying to disparage your fanboyism.
…
This is a thread about Silksong. A game that is a sequel to Hollow Knight. Both were made by Team Cherry.
But sure. If every single major studio were actually a tiny indie studio that could be run indefinitely because of previous success AND required no corporate management at all and consisted entirely of Good People then we would live in a utopia.
Is this your first time on an internet forum? Or the internet in general? Topics often drift. Just because the post is about something doesn’t mean every single thing in the comments is going to be explicitly about that.
Steam (and PC in general) just lends itself to indie games more, which is good. It could do better, but overall there’s a lot of great games that get the recognition they deserve. Triple A finds most of it’s success on consoles, where they can easily market it on the front page of the console, rather than just on the store.
But PC is (unfortunately?) really getting mainstream now, so we are starting to see a lot morals thrown out the window by consumers just to play the latest AAA slop too.