I have 2 GOP parents, one that voted Trump originally and one that did not. Over the last 9 years, I have watched them both travel down the MAGA pipeline to become visibly fascist. The parents who taught me racism was wrong and to have empathy for others, have become openly hostile about immigrants, Muslims, and even parrot the Nazi “great replacement” theory.
Part and parcel with this, they refuse to have any discussions about the facts – like immigrants not stealing and eating people’s pets. They won’t hear it, they won’t even engage in the conversation…they just get angry and loud the second they hear anything that doesn’t fit into the Fox News narrative. Can you relate? How are you dealing with it in your relationships with your parents?
Don’t argue with them. Don’t give them facts or anything else.
Ask them questions, Let them explain themselves, they’ll see it as trying to convert you or explain MAGA to you.
In the process of that, by asking the right question at the right time, they will slowly over the course of multiple years change their mind.
Eventually they’ll ask you about your viewpoint and you’ll know youve made it the half way point
This is probably the best answer based on the stuff that I’ve heard.
During the first term, a local talk radio show had a woman on who grew up in a cult. She was born into it. She described her own story about how she learned what was happening and eventually got out. IIRC, her parents cut all ties with her, as that was the way of the cult. Anyhow, she described the process of “deprogramming” someone and it is basically along the same lines of what you describe.
Sadly, it’s easy to “mass convert” people to cults, but deprogramming is a one on one conversation over a long period of time.
Good luck. Logic didn’t get them where they are, probably won’t get them out.
I cut all magas out of my life and tell them why.
This actually seams like a really good stratergy, I might try that.
The solution will always be communication. You have to tell them that they are pushing you away; how they are hurting you; how you can’t live with the hate.
Keep away from the talking points. Talk about your feelings with them. Talk about your fear that if they continue you will lose them. If they still care about you, the thought that they are causing you pain should be horrific to them. Tell them that you fear losing them to hate.
…but keep away from the facts. Don’t try to prove them wrong. If they bring stuff up… “I don’t care if that’s true or not. It makes you angry, and full of hate, and I can’t live with that level of hate in my life”.
Share emotions. Don’t worry who’s right or wrong. It’ll be hard, but that’s the only way to start. Their rational brain is corrupted. It doesn’t work and appealing to it won’t work.
Really good advice, thank you.
Don’t let them have any peace with those opinions. My mother became a cop when I was a kid and she went from tree hugging hippie to loud and proud racist so fast. It took YEARS of arguing and fighting every time she said something racist before I could finally get through to her. Don’t let up. My sister got sucked into transphobic bs too and she finally stopped talking about it after getting a lot of pushback over a couple of years. My husband got sucked into the alt right pipeline in the late 2010s after a lifetime of being hard left. That also took a couple years of never letting anything slide and fighting about every stupid video he watched. Don’t give up on your family and cut them out, either, though, please. I know it’s tempting but I feel we all have the responsibility to pull our loved ones out of the cult. It’s the only way for society to move forward. It’s hard. I know. I’ve done it three times.
How is your husband now? I can’t believe how many people you pulled back from the abyss. Does fighting them on everything actually work?
He is back to normal now thankfully. I can’t say it would always work but it has worked for me. It’s just exhausting and really hard. By the time my sister was going through it (she was the most recent), I was burnt out and did have to stop talking to her for a few months. I don’t regret it though because I still have all of them in my life and they aren’t driving me insane anymore.
I don’t think i could do it. I don’t have the patience. So irritating.
I used to have political arguments with my dad all the time, but like in a fun debate team way. It really was a fun part of our relationship until 2020… and then shit got real when I moved to a big city and the fun was gone.
When I moved home for a year, the first few months were rough. Lots of anger, lots of pain, but eventually I came to realize nothing I could say would do anything- to my family I was just woke end of story. So I stopped talking politics at all with them, and started talking about music, or yard work, or how we like our coffee. Honestly that opened things up later on to have more honest conversations that were more level headed. Frankly I got him to agree with DEI as a concept so long as I avoided buzzwords or call it DEI by name.
My dad is still the same guy- still funny, he’s still bright, he’s still kind and would absolutely help a child on the side of the road, he just listened to too much patriot radio. I still call him, but we had to realize our relationship and who we are to each other comes first. Politics might change but he’s always my dad and I’m always his son. Besides, when I came out as bi at 16 he was the only one who told me he loved me so that’s gotta mean something. He’s still in there.
goddamn this murdoch rot has gotten deep…how the fuck do you even begin to deprogram half (1/3rd, atleast) of an entire country?
Zero tolerance. No conversation. No benefit of the doubt. Zero.
I did the same. Basically said you didn’t raise me like this. Fix your shit or I’ll block you and never contact you again, I don’t associate with trump supporters. It went into more detail, but basically said I’m out.
Hurr durrrrr
Oh hey look a block button.
We don’t talk about politics or religion or health.
My parents have never been very well reasoned.
However, I’ve found that the best way to challenge people’s beliefs is to just ask what it would take to change their mind.
You’re still not going to win, but their answer will force you to acknowledge that they’re nuts and can’t be reasoned with.
I’m from the UK so my answer will be mostly UK centric.
My dad has become very right-wing in recent years. He supports Reform UK, he uncritically supports everything Israel does, he thinks that refugee boats should be sunk by the Navy without regard for the lives of the people on board. He hates LGBTQ+ people and thinks same sex marriage should be outlawed. He hates Islam and Muslims, and thinks that all mosques in the UK should be shut down. He wants the death penalty to return and for it to be applied very frequently. He thinks protestors and activists should be shot and killed by the police if they cause even minor disturbance. He thinks COVID was a hoax and that the vaccines are dangerous. He thinks Trump is great, except for his stance on Russia (my dad despises Putin).
It’s very sad how far down the rabbit hole he’s gone. I always thought of my dad as an intelligent man, because he was pretty accomplished academically and was always interested in science and technology. He always put logic before dogma and emotion.
But the shit he’s been absorbing on the internet over the past 10 or so years has changed him entirely. He believes every far-right conspiracy going, and has a violent attitude towards everything, seemingly thinking that everyone that doesn’t conform to right-wing standards should be harmed.
I don’t bring up politics anymore, but if the topic does come up somehow, I will tell him why he’s talking bullshit. In my opinion, social media and online propaganda has done a serious number on the psyche of older people. They fall for every lie hook, line, and sinker. It’s made them fucking insane.
The worst is when you find out that they actually do know what’s going on, and have been following the news, and yet they STILL support it.
Heartbreaking.
The only answer is to cut off the access to that hateful propaganda entirely.
He thinks protestors and activists should be shot and killed by the police if they cause even minor disturbance.
A cold comfort, but in expressing his distaste for the current government he would be hoist by his own petard.
My mom is liberal enough, but my brother fell down the pipeline. He recently tried to convince my mom i was brainwashed to be a LGBTQ Muslim extremist by my wife (note, I am a man, and my wife is an ex-muslim whose sect is persecuted by Muslim extremists) and he made 51st state memes on canada day. I don’t really know what to do, I just try not to be alone with him.
He recently tried to convince my mom i was brainwashed to be a LGBTQ Muslim extremist by my wife (note, I am a man)
Wow, that’s pretty next-level.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brainwashing_of_My_Dad?wprov=sfla1
In this particular case, the answer was to - quite literally - turn off the TV.
I don’t imagine this is a good option for many, but shutting off the incoming flow of hate can make a difference.
“You are what you eat”. If someone only consumes
fascist propagandaright-wing media, then they will become morefascistright-winged.To OOP: You might not be able to turn off their TV. But you should share unbiased or left-leaning articles, shows, news, etc. And try to get them to “eat” a more balanced diet.
My dad has always been. I went no contact for a few years during the first few months of covid. Since then we occasionally chat over signal but it’s surface level shit and I don’t really feel like trying anymore.
This is fair.
It’s exhausting to try to have a conversation with someone who isn’t engaging in good faith.
It’s perfectly understandable if you don’t want to spend your time and energy in that way. And (as I argued at length here) it isn’t your responsibility.
Talk to them. Education goes both ways: they educated you when you where an enfant, now’s your turn.
Much easier said than done. Some people have a difficult time accepting that their children are adults with different opinions. My Dad still sees me as the little boy he raised, sometimes that’s nice and I treasure it. Sometimes it’s still the most frustrating thing in the world. I’m fortunate that my parents haven’t fallen down the MAGA pipeline but they’re definitely more conservative than they were 5 years ago. I couldn’t educate my Dad on anything, he just doesn’t see me that way. Mind you I don’t have to, I’m fortunate.
My point being, for some people their relationship with their parents will never go both ways but that’s okay. They’re your parents and it’s one of the relationships that rarely is symmetrical. My Dad is my father, I’m his son, and I’ve learned to accept the relationship we have (which is pretty good) rather than get upset about the few problematic beliefs he holds. For people who are not as fortunate as me, zero contact might be the answer. Sometimes it’s okay to accept things that aren’t perfect.
ha ha ha cute
Dude I wish it were this easy but how you just explained they educated us as an infant, they still see me as an infant. There isn’t a thing I can say to make them question their billions of dollars of propaganda because I am simply younger.
I call bullshit on this. Education does not, in fact, “go both ways.”
Generally, in western society, we accept the idea that adults should be responsible for themselves, with exceptions for those who are physically or mentally unable to do so. We value principles of autonomy and personal responsibility, so we’re generally expected to do the work of educating ourselves (or paying someone for their help) in adulthood.
When a person has a child, they make a choice to be a parent and to take on the responsibility to raise that child. Of course, we know that not everyone follows through on that responsibility.
That person’s child has not been given any choice. They should not be required to take responsibility for their parent(s) just because of the accident of their birth. Many children choose to care for their parents in their old age for various reasons, usually for love or money.
As a society, we agree that we owe protection, education, and the fulfillment of needs to our children … because we choose to bring those children into the world and because we need them to perpetuate the social order we rely on.
Those children do not, when they become adults, automatically owe the same things back to the full-grown adults who raised them. Generally, we expect them to provide stability for their elders by contributing to the social and economic order, mostly by paying taxes and keeping infrastructure functional.
Parents are able to control aspects of their children’s lives in order to raise them in what they deem to be appropriate ways. Children don’t get “a turn” to control all of the same aspects of their parents’ lives. My mother kept me from playing video games and watching MTV as a teen because she thought it would “rot your brain.” But as much as I’d love to, I can’t keep her from watching Fox (or NewsMax, or OAN, or TBN, or whatever she’s on this week).
Some people might choose to try to reverse the effects of 20+ years of a 24-hour propaganda machine brainwashing their parents out of love or a sense of familial duty, or whatever. And that’s admirable.
But I absolutely reject the idea that it’s somehow “my turn” to “educate” 20+ years of Fox News programming out of my aging conservative parents.
Cut off, and I realized just how much toxicity they brought into my house. No regrets. I’ve heard from others that without other people to blame their problems on they eventually turned on each other and are divorcing. The family is now safe from them.
Meta: Lemmy doesn’t seem to have something akin to Reddit’s “QAnonCasualties” subreddit. That’s kind of surprising as I think there’d be plenty of interest in such a thing. I can imagine it might be a lot of work to moderate though.
OP: the abovementioned subreddit might help you understand what’s going on and if you tell your story you will definitely get a lot of support from people who have lost friends and loved-ones to MAGA/QAnon. Don’t let the “QAnon” part of the sub name deter you, there’s a big overlap between QAnon and MAGA and the sub has content from people affected by both/either.
I just wish someone had come up with a novel approach to mend relationships between leftists and their MAGA-brainwashed parents, but reading the 40 or so replies here and taking your advice and popping over to my favorite redlib instance to read some of that community…it looks like success at improving these relationships is incredibly rare.
I do quite like the approach laid out by Honkology in their “why facts don’t change people’s minds” video and have been taking that approach for the last 9 years, but not only has it failed to move them one inch out of the cult, they have only gone deeper and deeper. Mentally, I have accepted the fact that it’s not my responsibility to fix them, but emotionally, it’s difficult to accept.
On one hand, all the replies here from people in similar situations has made me feel less alone in the situation. On the other, it has also made me really sad about how easily tens of millions of people could be turned against anyone who doesn’t look like them, think like them, or belong to their same economic stratum.
I’ve looked briefly into the equivalent of antifascist projects, and former neo-Nazis talking about how their minds were changed. From what I’ve seen:
- People can and do leave political cults
- There’s no universal recipe. A common factor among former neo-Nazis seems to be having someone close to them who doesn’t tolerate the bullshit, so to me it seems the best approach is to stand firm, but leave a door open in the rare case that they have a revelation on their own. (Historically, this sometimes happens if/when their own personal reality begins to clearly contradict the propaganda.)
- Many people simply don’t leave, so it’s unfair to demand those around them spend so much time and effort trying to make it happen. It can be a waste of time. It’s a gamble, really, so again that’s why I say leave a door open, as long as it’s safe.
Obviously these are just second-hand observations, I don’t have much personal experience with this, so if any of it sounds wrong then I’d like to know.
All 3 are great points. Thank you!
I am so thankful my mom is still just a stoner that likes high fashion, pun intended. I am so sorry you all have to go through this. It is mind boggling the change that the poison propaganda has brought. I lost some other relatives to it, but it’s nothing like a parent. Hugs for all.
Remember how the far right likes to chant that facts dont care about your feelings?
Its projection. They go off of feelings above all else. And whatever sky daddy tells them to think.
You’re free to start one. This is the people’s internet after all.
My parents are not MAGA (They are more “centre-left”), but I do feel very sorry for anyone who has to deal with parents like that. I have other family members who support MAGA, and I simply don’t talk to them, because I cannot look them in their eyes, knowing that they support pure evil. Their Facebook profiles make my blood boil, but I try my best just to watch the meme my father sent me, so I can carry on with my day, without it being ruined by my Neo-Nazi fascist family members. We aren’t even American, but you know the saying by now - “When America sneezes, the whole world catches a cold”.
How old are your parents? If they are retired, that might explain a lot. People say you become broad minded, wise and knowledgeable if you have ample time to read and educate yourself, instead of working more (that’s why many people say society’s obsession with work is a distraction tool to prevent people thinking that the system is rigged). However, it also goes the inverse towards extreme radicalisation.
I don’t have a practical advise to give to de-redicalise your parents, but typically radicalisation is not just you have too much time to consume so many contents, but also loneliness is a factor which most people overlook. Hannah Arendt made a conclusion in her book, Origins of Totalitarianism, that loneliness is a precursor to totalitarianism. The far right (and far left as well) sell the snake oil that only they can bring people together again.
A lot of old people who are lonely are vulnerable to extremist propaganda because their minds are not in the right place. This is something to consider imo when you have to interact with your parents. Genuine human connection is the missing ingredient. A friend of mine has also become far right. He moved to London many years ago, and my guess is that because big cities tend to be individualistic, this made him lonely. The far right rabbithole created a sense of togetherness and purpose for listless individuals.
Edit: wording
Interesting food for thought. Feels like a catch 22 that they need more human interaction to help with their ideologies, but their ideologies make people not want to be around them (except for other people in the cult). It’s also vexing that they can know a Muslim or an undocumented immigrant, and have that “oh no, they’re one of the good ones” logic and still demonize the rest of the people from those groups. I wonder how many people they need to know from an out-group before they stop demonizing the whole group.
That book sounds interesting, I’m adding it to my list at the library. Thanks for the recommendation and also all the thoughtful advice!
Bedrock based
My grandfather and his family supported Hitler and were Nazi sympathisers. He admitted to admiring Hitler on his literal death bed. My mom never denounced or condemned him for his beliefs. She is currently ignoring the fact that my grandfather was Jewish and most of his family died in concentration camps. I brought up how Nazis were upset at the game Wolfenstein. She tried to defend the literal Nazis upset at a game famouse for it’s Nazi killings.
I provided climate change proof from NASA data and she claimed it wasn’t credible because the data came from NASA. SHE PAINTED A PICTURE OF TRUMP HUGGING JESUS. In her infamous extremely bad painting style. Off topic but my son had a portrait from her. He asked us to throw it away because his portrait was giving him nightmares. Made contact with an estranged aunt and found out that literally everyone in my family hates her art because it really is just that bad. Art is subjective, but in this case please make an exception.
Turns out my mother was always a Nazi, I just didn’t notice the signs until I cut her out of my life.
Dang…now I kinda’ wanna’ see that art.
Fuck… You just provided me a glimpse into my future and I do not like it.
