Just speaking to your first point, prior to the invasion Israel was not in control of or administering Gaza. They had withdrawn 20 years prior and Gaza was operating independently albeit subject to blockades and trade interference. That’s why we call it an invasion - they’re literally at war to gain control. I don’t think it’s fair to hold Israel responsible for policing Hamas’s internal recruitment policies during that period.
Israel had a records of all births, deaths, where people live, what jobs they have, and intimate knowledge of their personal relationships and politics. They controlled all imports and exports, to such a degree that they restricted the amount of food flowing into Gaza by counting the amount of calories needed to sustain the population. They control fuel, water, electricity, waste, travel, communications, everything.
Gaza has always been a ghetto, and just because the ghetto is self-administrated doesn’t mean it is sovereign.
I think it is entirely fair to hold Israel accountable for a ghetto that exists almost entirely within its borders.
I actually dispute a lot of that, but I think we can distill this down to a simple question: In your opinion, could Israel stop Hamas from recruiting children without a full-scale war? If not, I think that settles both the sovereignty and responsibility questions.
I believe they could, because if Israel stopped victimizing people in Gaza then Hamas wouldn’t be able to recruit in the first place.
That means ending their superexploitation of Palestinian labor, ending their import controls over Gaza’s essential supplies, and by ending the racist apartheid system within Israel. People join Hamas to fight Israel. If Israel stopped giving them reasons to fight, they would stop.
It sounds like you’d hold Israel responsible for anything Hamas does because you feel Hamas is reacting to Israel’s actions. This implicitly justifies all of Hamas’s actions as “rightful” resistance. I think this both infantilizes Hamas and provides cover for them to do literally anything. If they nuked Paris, is that also Israel’s fault? Is there maybe a middle ground where a group can simultaneously be oppressed and responsible for their own actions?
The middle ground is “Israel shares responsibility for everything Hamas does because Israel created the conditions for Hamas.” Hamas has agency, of course, so that isn’t a free pass for Hamas to do anything without any responsibility. That shared responsibility does implicate Israel in everything Hamas does, because settlers are always responsible for the blowback they create.
I can accept that as we move backwards from effect to cause we can aggregate some level of responsibility, but where does that end? Israel wouldn’t exist without the British, so are they responsible? To what extent is Hitler responsible? Or the Moorish invasion of Spain? Ultimately I guess we end up back in Egypt and it’s the Pharaoh’s fault?
Ultimately Hamas (and the Palestinian people, separately) are making choices and actions that are either appropriate or inappropriate to their situation. I don’t find the use of child soldiers (and historically, child suicide bombers) to be a reasonable response, and so I don’t hold Israel responsible.
And just to show that I am in fact operating in good faith here, I think the great match of return was an appropriate response, and hold Israel responsible for the resulting deaths.
Israel wouldn’t exist without the British, so are they responsible?
Yes, but not just because the British mandate was how the land was stolen in the first place, but Britain today supports Israel’s genocide.
To what extent is Hitler responsible?
He’s dead so that’s kind of irrelevant, but did you know Zionists were Nazi collaborators? The worked with the Nazis to migrate German Jews to Palestine.
Or the Moorish invasion of Spain?
I think you missed my point.
This isn’t about historical guilt, it’s about the active and ongoing role Israel plays in the conditions that helps Hamas recruit children. Every time Israel kills an entire child’s family, which happens constantly by the way, they’ve just created another lifelong supporter of Hamas that is ripe for recruitment.
That’s how blowback works! It’s not some historical karma that’s coming back onto Israel, it’s their active oppression that does the seeds of resistance.
And this current phase of the genocide will only make Hamas stronger. Israel can not win.
Regarding Israel not being responsible for “unreasonable” actions by Hamas, do you have a position? Was recruiting child soldiers a reasonable course of action pre-invasion?
Just speaking to your first point, prior to the invasion Israel was not in control of or administering Gaza. They had withdrawn 20 years prior and Gaza was operating independently albeit subject to blockades and trade interference. That’s why we call it an invasion - they’re literally at war to gain control. I don’t think it’s fair to hold Israel responsible for policing Hamas’s internal recruitment policies during that period.
Israel had a records of all births, deaths, where people live, what jobs they have, and intimate knowledge of their personal relationships and politics. They controlled all imports and exports, to such a degree that they restricted the amount of food flowing into Gaza by counting the amount of calories needed to sustain the population. They control fuel, water, electricity, waste, travel, communications, everything.
Gaza has always been a ghetto, and just because the ghetto is self-administrated doesn’t mean it is sovereign.
I think it is entirely fair to hold Israel accountable for a ghetto that exists almost entirely within its borders.
I actually dispute a lot of that, but I think we can distill this down to a simple question: In your opinion, could Israel stop Hamas from recruiting children without a full-scale war? If not, I think that settles both the sovereignty and responsibility questions.
I believe they could, because if Israel stopped victimizing people in Gaza then Hamas wouldn’t be able to recruit in the first place.
That means ending their superexploitation of Palestinian labor, ending their import controls over Gaza’s essential supplies, and by ending the racist apartheid system within Israel. People join Hamas to fight Israel. If Israel stopped giving them reasons to fight, they would stop.
It sounds like you’d hold Israel responsible for anything Hamas does because you feel Hamas is reacting to Israel’s actions. This implicitly justifies all of Hamas’s actions as “rightful” resistance. I think this both infantilizes Hamas and provides cover for them to do literally anything. If they nuked Paris, is that also Israel’s fault? Is there maybe a middle ground where a group can simultaneously be oppressed and responsible for their own actions?
The middle ground is “Israel shares responsibility for everything Hamas does because Israel created the conditions for Hamas.” Hamas has agency, of course, so that isn’t a free pass for Hamas to do anything without any responsibility. That shared responsibility does implicate Israel in everything Hamas does, because settlers are always responsible for the blowback they create.
I can accept that as we move backwards from effect to cause we can aggregate some level of responsibility, but where does that end? Israel wouldn’t exist without the British, so are they responsible? To what extent is Hitler responsible? Or the Moorish invasion of Spain? Ultimately I guess we end up back in Egypt and it’s the Pharaoh’s fault?
Ultimately Hamas (and the Palestinian people, separately) are making choices and actions that are either appropriate or inappropriate to their situation. I don’t find the use of child soldiers (and historically, child suicide bombers) to be a reasonable response, and so I don’t hold Israel responsible.
And just to show that I am in fact operating in good faith here, I think the great match of return was an appropriate response, and hold Israel responsible for the resulting deaths.
Yes, but not just because the British mandate was how the land was stolen in the first place, but Britain today supports Israel’s genocide.
He’s dead so that’s kind of irrelevant, but did you know Zionists were Nazi collaborators? The worked with the Nazis to migrate German Jews to Palestine.
I think you missed my point.
This isn’t about historical guilt, it’s about the active and ongoing role Israel plays in the conditions that helps Hamas recruit children. Every time Israel kills an entire child’s family, which happens constantly by the way, they’ve just created another lifelong supporter of Hamas that is ripe for recruitment.
That’s how blowback works! It’s not some historical karma that’s coming back onto Israel, it’s their active oppression that does the seeds of resistance.
And this current phase of the genocide will only make Hamas stronger. Israel can not win.
Regarding Israel not being responsible for “unreasonable” actions by Hamas, do you have a position? Was recruiting child soldiers a reasonable course of action pre-invasion?