You do not understand the levels and oversimplify. I still care about you just the same. Manipulation is part of everything you do, including the dichotomous tribalism within your reply.
Speaking for others shows a tribalistic dogma, an illogical bias in need of address. One cannot attest to the beliefs of others, only self. Such flawed reinforcing fictions are challenging to develop beyond. I wish you luck and deeper curiosity in your travels.
From that perspective, we can go one step further. Is there some limited pool of chemistry that we are all competing to access. Obviously that is not the case within the physical world. Perhaps the temporal dimension could be considered the primary limiting factor, but in that resource we are all more or less equals, at least from within our social caste.
If we are all just playing a game of chemistry, every move made is of manipulative self interest. The only real difference between individuals in this dimension is self awareness. Most are not aware or thinking in this space.
So then, one should question, what does self awareness mean here? A good way to pose that question in a more concrete abstraction is to say, do you believe that there are truly evil people plotting evil deeds that harm others for the sake of evil as their prime motivation? To plot in such a way is to say that they are causing self harm willingly in their machinations. Does anyone believe that such people exist, or is everyone doing what they believe to be right, and merely ignorant, perhaps even willfully, at the harm they cause?
If you follow this thread of thought from two tangential plains of the same dimension, and mull it over well, Machiavellian is just an arbitrary label for a type of self awareness within the space of ‘we are all only chemistry’. If no one is plotting in such a way as to cause self harm, and all the evil in the world is the result of a spectrum of ignorance, then the real question here at somewhere near the bottom is whether you choose to believe in utopia or inevitable dystopia. In another phrasing, is the glass half empty or half full? There is no negative constraint on manipulation.
In the dimension of humans as chemistry, my self awareness does in itself mean I wish to benefit myself at your expense. Just because I see how to on some logical plane, does not mean I choose that path. Quite the opposite, my altruism is another dimension entirely. For instance, a place like the fediverse has less ultimate utility for a maker like me when compared to a larger aggregate of digital public commons, but to actively choose to set aside self for more altruistically inclined motivations, is manipulative in a positive form. Especially so when promoting positive engagement from all.
There is no causal link between narcissism, greed, or selfishness and manipulative potential through self awareness, though the first is the only of those three that are real on an ontological level if one analyses them more closely under the same lens of ‘what is evil’. If I am keen on altruistic and collaborative benefit; if I am aware that any abstract mechanism of attenuation is itself incapable of amplification, then it is in my own best interest to benefit you and all the rest, regardless of the spectrum of self awareness.
Therefore, everything everyone does is a form of manipulation for chemistry. I am glad you chose to engage with me for this moment in our lives. I wanted the best for you before this interaction dear digital neighbor, and want for the same after. I choose to believe the future will be brighter; that the glass is half full. I believe in it so strongly that I will do my best to bend others to the same, even when I know I do so at my own expense. Caring for others without any expectation of return is the purist form of altruism. In some sense it requires a certain inner self sadism to pursue. Perhaps at times it may be misguided. We are all pareidolia machines of analog organic form. Each of us is unable to take in and sense all the world around us. We form a coherent but assumptive inner narrative of our own existence, but it is always a fiction if scrutinized deeply enough. What are the quantum fields around your neurons right now.
From this perspective, absolutely, I love a person that is altruistically inclined and self aware beyond my scope of thought. I especially love those with emotional intelligence that easily manipulate me in a dimension where I am very weak, but where I need and welcome the help. I really do genuinely care for you as a person. It is primarily driven by logic. It is a more consistent and persistent care. I know I am weak when it comes to emotional empathy, but I actively do my best to compensate with logical empathy which I feel strongly. My unlucky physical disability at the hands of another, and over a decade in constant pain drives my desire for no one to suffer like me. My altruism is within the realm of self sadism. My inner judgemental narrative centers on observing and measuring only the actions of others, and self. I know I did not get very much individual attention as a kid, also that my parents did what they believed to be best. I do not plot for evil. I do not choose to be ignorant of the effects I may have upon others. Does this somehow make me a bad person?
When I see some perspective or argument, I always see a dozen ways to support or discredit it, and various supporting reasons to do so. There is no Self in that perspective. My quale is born from a raw curiosity, but not with malicious intent. That curiosity is more like my inner child, where I am emotionally vulnerable much the same. I must logically do my best to mask that vulnerability when others wish to do me harm. We all exist in many dimensions of thought and self awareness. Some may be more or less outliers. I much prefer those that are aware and open about their states in various dimensions of humanness. There is honesty and the potential for growth in the vulnerability of sharing. So I actively put myself in harms way to say that oversimplification here is harmfully inadequate. If you see it, please feel free to improve my chemistry by whatever means you have available. Actions are all that define you. To me, that is a wonderful action. I apologize if my abstractions and narrative are challenging to follow. My message is, I genuinely care for you as a person, and do not expect anything in return.
More to many comments: why does manipulative need to be bad, or negative?
The main trigger is a lack of attention from parents in childhood leading to a lack of emotional depth. Such a person may overcome that lack of emotional depth, or emotional intelligence, with logical empathy. I feel like people are way too dichotomous here about something that is far more complex in spectrum. Why hate on people for what amounts to their upbringing. Measure people by their actions. The ability to manipulate, is not itself a negative act.
Don’t know, but watching heavy case files on YT from time to time, DNA is solving a lot.
It is the beginning of cataclysm-simulation_67
Preach about the primitive stupidity of wasteful industrial technology and the stone age of silicon. Biology is the ultimate technology. The Neolithic is to us what we are to the age when the age of discovery is over and all of science is a fully constrained engineering corpus. This is the age of biology. At this technological stage, civilization is possible at stellar lifetimes and beyond, unlike the present where critical scarce resources are fully commercially depleted within a century. The ultimate technology is fully integrated into the elemental cycles it exists within.
The only thing holding us back is investment into discovery within a social framework of meritocratic hierarchy. Gross inherited wealth is the terminal cancer of civilizations. Intelligence is not hereditary and the impotence is incapable of managing or filtering innovation and progress. Anything beyond a trust fund for an upper middle-class lifestyle is treason against country and future.
Take for instance space exploration. All of the missions are about military engineering and have little to no basis in science altruism, or progressing the future. If anyone had even a tiny fraction of sense, we would be putting everything into the recovery of a single m-type asteroid. Any of these fragments of differentiated planetesimal cores contains more rare mineral wealth than all of what humans have accessed in the Holocene. We live on the flux, the dross, the garbage that floats to the top when gravity has pulled everything we value within this gravity prison of resource scarcity. Everything we have is the result of the sparse junk that fell to the surface later than the last phase of molten Earth; those outer objects that still contain diverse wealth. We could go right out there and pick one of our choosing. We are the Neolithic fools that never travel one valley over and discover all the resources and technology of the Han Chinese. That one objective eclipses all human wealth in a decade. Instead, we are territorial toddlers bedazzled by the colors on our toy stick’s fabric, and no better than chimpanzees mobbing to rape and pillage, with the mass mytho disorder of collective imaginary friends. The biggest businesses in our world of the present are no more that prophets selling technological singularity and infinite energy scams the same as the ancients pedaling Zeus and Apollo. There is nowhere to go down in truth; only to peek behind a façade to see nothing has changed.
Organization is the one true religion. REPENT! (saith a heretic)
It is the failure of a system of inherited wealth. Intelligence is not hereditary in humans. Inherited wealth has no meritocratic order. A lack of meritocracy is terminal cancer. Any inheritance beyond a trust fund for life covering an upper middle class life is the issue. Solve this one issue and it removes every problem name you know. Japan already solved this problem politically. You do not know the names of any Japanese problem billionaires. It is not a coincidence.
I went to service my bike. Instead I spent a month reverse engineering a shifter and redesigned the index system for 3d printing… Solidarity
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Today is the 12th anniversary of the day I was physically disabled by a fuckwit driver while I was riding a bicycle to work. It is the first year in several where I do not feel existential or super depressed. I have plenty of reason to be, but all of it is deflected at the moment.
military hospital doc versus special forces… Doc’s more effective.
Gross inherited wealth is the societal version of terminal cancer. It is the actual underlying problem that has gone unsolved. Intelligence is not hereditary in humans. No amount of money can replace meritocratic hierarchy at scale. As long as that issue goes unaddressed, this place will crash and burn. Anything beyond an upper middle-class trust for life must be forfeit. That one change eliminates every problem person you know by name.
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Check DNS logs. Discord is proprietary undocumented garbage that connects to dozens of raw IP addresses that have no documentation, rhyme, or reasoning. You have no clue what or who is connected in that mess of garbage, or why they are there.
It is about like, I’m going to give you access to a phone, a special phone, it just works.
It is a prison phone. You are in prison when you use it… technically. But you don’t really “see” the “place”. The other inmates are all around you. They see you, but you don’t see them. Never mind that though, the phone just works. Lots of people love that phone. Nobody asks questions. Just use the phone and pay no attention to all the rest. It will be fine.
Business model? Viability? Never mind all of that. Don’t ask questions like that. The numbers do not add up in the slightest. That is the magic of prisons. Justice costs a lot, but it is worth it right. Magic phone is easy. Ask no questions. Expect no answers. Totally normal, everyone is doing it.
The whole thing is a mass of clueless zombie morons that ask no questions and have no idea who what or why they are connected to with all those raw IP addresses. They all give trust blindly without accountability or understanding.
Is fluxer as network f’ed up as Discord without the minimum democratic standard of human readable domains, or is it the slavery of dozens of undocumented raw IP addresses?
I’m in a microclimate that is even more unique than most of SoCal. You would have to visit to really understand it. I would not have believed it until I moved here. The temp where I live is 10-20 degrees Fahrenheit different than the surrounding area even just a few miles away. It only exists within a mile or so of the ocean. Riding a bike everywhere for years was quite fun because the weather always gets better the closer I get to home. It could be in the low 40’s F at night in Irvine, but it will be 55-60 F in San Clemente in the winter. It may be nearly 100 F in Mission Viejo in Summer, but it will still be 75 F in San Clemente. It has to do with the water, mountains, and how this area is situated at the edge of the LA Basin. It causes the wind patterns to be favorable here across both major regional weather patterns. If you go diving here, it also becomes obvious. There are three major thermoclines even at recreational diving depths and the first one hits hard at just a couple meters down. The cold water is why there are never hurricanes here. Any disturbances of the surface mixes the thermoclines and prevents building strong storms. When the air gets too hot, this area is covered in a marine layer at night because of the water temperature and that is what keeps it much cooler. San Clemente is where that phenomenon starts. There are actually cheesy little tourist shirts sold about the place in Peru that is supposedly the only other location with the same microclimate in the world.
I always have a window cracked open in my room, but SoCal coastal weather is best in the world year round. There are few locations with deep water upwelling AND onshore flow atmospheric patterns. Of those, there is only one other location, in Peru, where it is also a temperate desert.
Who would you want them to save first?
When did I say anything of this sort? Your fictions are strange and independent of me. Perhaps your emotions are misplaced •»ÁĪ¬p