- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
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Why it matters: If the White House acts on that legal analysis, it would dramatically escalate President Trump’s pressure on Senate Democrats to end the week-old shutdown by denying back pay to as many as 750,000 federal workers after the shutdown.
I’m not sure it would. In the past, federal workers were always paid after the government opened up. If they aren’t paid this time when the GOP holds both the Executive and the Legislative branches, it would be silly to claim the Democrats would have the power to withhold payment.
This has occured at least 47 times I believe since Reagan started shutting down the government. If they got paid for all 46 other times, and not this one… It really should be pointing to this administration
Republicans have been blamed for every shutdown in recent memory by the polled general public. This is a losing battle for them no matter what happens
Their propagandists still have to try.
In our filter bubbles maybe, but does broader public polling support that sentiment?
Yes, objectively. People overwhelmingly blame the GOP, by 17 points. Both the majority of Dems and independents blame Trump, with even 10% of Republicans blaming him.
Oh I definitely think they’re getting the heat this time, I was more curious about the other shutdowns “in recent memory”. Because talking to my conservative parents and others that doesn’t seem as clear.
The last shutdown in recent memory was also Trump, in 2019. The majority of voters accurately blamed him for that one.
Trump’s approval rating dropped during the shutdown.[21][22] A majority of Americans opposed exploitation of the shutdown as a negotiating strategy and held Trump responsible for the shutdown: A CBS News poll found that 71% of Americans considered the border wall “not worth the shutdown”[23] and a Washington Post/ABC News poll found that 53% of Americans blamed Trump and Republicans for the shutdown, compared to 34% who blamed Democrats and 10% who blamed both parties.[24]
Its not even ambiguous. Your parents are likely just very I’ll iformed if they think anyone but the GOP is percieved as responsible for these farces.
Apparently big change comes with the number 47…
Why would that stop them from saying so?
It doesn’t stop them saying it. It stops it from being credible. Ever other GOP and Democratic President has always paid, even in trump’s first term during that shutdown. Now suddenly they can’t? If you mess with a worker’s pay you have highly reactive results.
I’ve seen a lot of YouTube videos that have titles like “boss didn’t pay man for two weeks then THIS happened “
It’s normally a video of a dude fucking wrecking the place with a tank made out of a forklift or something.
Marvin Heemeyer?
Staplerfahrer Klaus?
These people don’t care about credibility.
These people DO care about their paycheck, thats the difference here.
You’re so close.
If you haven’t noticed, Trump is baiting for riots.
Right but he’ll get his riots regardless. You can say “don’t fall for it” but riots like this are police creations.
It’s not being silly, it’s just lying. The Republicans do it all the time. Nothing special about this time.
They lie, we know they lie, they know we know. It’s just arrogance and abuse of power.
Trump was also asked whether his administration intends to honor a law he signed during his first term, the Government Employee Fair Treatment Act of 2019, which requires furloughed workers to be paid “at the earliest date possible after the lapse in appropriations ends.”
Laws are not real any longer. No more laws; no more rules.
Oh so the Trump administration just deleted the gov’t online reference to that law …
Correct. The law is now Calvinball.
I have a friend that works for TSA. A few days ago he showed up to work only to find that 27 of his peers decided not to. And considering they won’t get back pay, what’s the point? People need to feed and house themselves and the government has made it clear in the past that they’re not about to treat essential employees as if they’re actually essential.
They will get back pay. The law says they get back pay and these statements have not changed the law.
There is no law.
Why is anyone still clinging to hope that the law will help anyone at this point?
Why? Really?
Because as a nation you’ve already decided to roll over and accept fascism. No not all of you want this, but collectively, you are a failed nation and we are about to see the final act.
People are clinging to hope, even if unjustified, because the only two options are the law and the system prevail (currently all evidence says no) or people are going to get very uncomfortable and more people are going to die. Either by their choice now, or courtesy of MAGA later.
Can I ask honestly what you think we should be doing? I’m a traditionally Democratic voter in California, I have 2 kids, I don’t own guns. Should I go buy guns and wage a 1-man war against a military with tanks and drones a thousand miles from my house? Should I tell my kids “sorry, I know you like going to the park with me, but I have to go on a suicide mission because the principle is more important than the chances of success.” I think the concept that Americans have rolled over to fascism is pretty unfair; we’re a country as big as other continents and just because a strategic selection of districts were targeted by the minority in a way that “won the game” doesn’t mean people aren’t on the precipice of participating in something that actually looks like it would have a chance at success. There are no options for resistance right now that feel like the would even come close to be worth the risk to my family.
I’ve lobbied, marched, donated to causes, had honest talks with people on the other side trying to convince them empathetically rather than berating them, and to be honest, getting anything I’ve done hand-waved away by passive aggressive comments is as defeating as anything else. I’m pretty sure a big reason fascism is taking over is because people get their energy out by making increasingly vitriolic internet comments which is as inconsequential as it gets. Americans don’t organize until things get truly intolerable, and this frog boiling going on hasn’t crossed the line enough for people to reach critical mass.
You’re arguing with a 1 month old account, fyi. Don’t get sucked into people trolling or telling you to give up.
If I didn’t know any better I would think there is a larger motive behind all the very blatant trolls that keep popping up on .ca.
Well, I’m on ca and I’m the one the 1 month old account commented to.
I’ll bring this up with the mods.
.ca has been very stable since I’ve been on and it requires a certain amount of info and a mini essay prior to joining.
I don’t want the only place I find we have left to be tainted by this sort of thing.
By any chance, if you wouldn’t mind, could you send me any other examples of trolls you have noticed?
Seems to me he has already given up. Which kind of proves the point of the post he responded to.
People are giving up in advance. No energy to fight to get another Biden.
So my advice is that avoiding that should be part of the fight.I wouldn’t say I’ve given up, but I think my forms of resistance are invisible. We’re seeing a ton of censorship and media repositories and resources being attacked. My spouse is a physician, and they may have been part of some groups of physicians on Facebook that did peer organizing, and that is no longer a safe space, so I use my sysadmin skills to maintain private social networks for them to collaborate on; I am also doing a large archiving service that is semi-private using zimit and mwoffliner to go into kiwix so the government can’t kneecap their ability to provide medical care that may include things dis-favorable to the regime. I regularly snapshot and offline critical resources to them via a network of crawlers I maintain.
I think it might be time we push for a general strike, and not this 3 years down the road bullshit.
A general strike and soon would fuck shit up for the leaches on top
This “3 years down the road bullshit” is necessary to prepare. Strikes take time, money, and organization.
Resistance means helping the oppressed and sabotaging fascists, you don’t need to be a warrior. Think of the little things which make it a bigger whole, together with willpower we will shall overcome.
The important thing is to be visible, a demonstration outside a government building maybe.
Of course you can’t spend all day every day doing that, but take some friends, make some coffee and cakes, and make it a nice event for yourself out of it. If you come at the same time every day, hopefully others will join.
Alternatively if someone is already doing this, join them.This is how grassroots start, when more people are active, it helps people other places to do the same, and when they communicate through the power of being many, it can become a movement.
Again if somebody is already doing it join, also if you can only spare ½ an hour per day, or even per week.
The power is in numbers, and you need to show you are one of those numbers.Don’t argue against their points, argue your own point, that’s what needs to be visible.
Freedom and democracy would be good points IMO. But No to fascism is also a valid point.Going all in for a month doesn’t work, steady for the distance is the winning strategy.
You sort of answered your own question in your last sentence.
I don’t have all the answers. But what I do know, is you are literally living in a country where 70% of political experts polled say the United States is no longer a democracy. You are clearly not just seeing backsliding but full on marching towards absolute fascism.
So if you want the real answer, it’s that people are going to have to die and people are going to have to get very uncomfortable in order to turn this around. That, or (and the country is currently doing this) just accept fascism and hope it never comes for you.
If I was an American citizen, I would have been stockpiling food since January. I’d be spending as little money as I possibly can, squirreling away some savings. Most people can, despite what they say, if push really comes to shove. I’d be talking to like minded people and discussing what skills may be able to be traded for in a general strike or emergency.
I’ve laughed at for all of this multiple times, so I don’t really expect it will happen much. But the boots will be on your necks first, even if they eventually come for mine. I’m already planning my life on the assumption it’s coming for me. And I’m not even there.
A gun is a good idea, yes. What you do with it is up to you, but do you really want to be the one in the fight without a gun when a federale decides they don’t like you?
As to what you can do, no one is telling anyone to go wage a one man war.
I think the scenarios where a gun helps me defend against any sort of organized fascist government are nonexistent. My local police effectively could assault a small nation with the equipment they have, no amount of handguns/shotguns/rifles can combat that, let alone the national guard who have access to drones, planes, surveillance, armored vehicles, body armor, and the ability to effectively infinitely resupply. There is no guerilla winning a hot war against a fascist government in 2025 unless you’re willing to sacrifice a generation of lives.
I think the % likelihood of scenarios where a family member or child defeats the security and has access to something that can do unnecessary harm are well above zero. I think the scenarios where I bring a gun into a situation that MIGHT warrant it, but that would result in an escalation instead of a de-escalation, are equally likely.
I figured out my dad’s safe combo and had access to his guns when I was an early teen. I expect my kids to have the same capabilities and curiosities. This isn’t a movie or a book, the real risk/rewards clearly make firearm ownership a non-starter for me.
Well, you have done a lot of of the things that you need to do, and that are the simplest basis of civic responsibility. Don’t let people troll you down.
It is sad that it is not immediately apparent to Americans that what they need to do is organize as much as possible and develop civil society because it has been gutted.
Simply finding ways to educate yourself and others about what has been stolen from you and how you can get it back is absolutely necessary if you are ever going to solve this problem. One form of light organizing is a study group, which can quickly lead to more effective substantive action, or simply joining a civic service organization like food not bombs or similar offers a toe hold on getting going.
There is a law
Government Employee Fair Treatment Act of 2019
That’s not his point. His point was that “law” doesn’t matter any more.
I’m not an expert, but if they are not fired, it seems to me they technically have the right to pay.
I don’t think a specific law about this is necessary.In America you only have rights when they feel like giving them
They’re entitled to back pay…
That’s not the same as saying they’ll get it, even in the best of the times.
OK, they’re entitled to back pay. He’ll just put them on infinte hold until he’s king or dead.
Do you not realize you’re dealing with psychopathic billionaires that don’t think they’re accountable to the law in any way? Like a child rapist president felon?
They may not be paid promptly, but I kind of suspect that if back pay is not forthcoming, there’s probably going to be a class-action lawsuit or similar, and they may wind up not just wages, but with with interest on said wages.
Personally, I think that backpay would be one of the Blue State’s advantages during a civil war. One nation honors it obligations, the Neo Confederates won’t.
I don’t think you understand who is saying what…
Does this include ICE agents? That would be pretty funny.
Yup they are currently unpaid. Unsure about bonuses since they make a decent amount in that.
Do we even know if they’re being paid the bonuses that were promised?
I used to want to work for the federal government and once upon a time it was a very good job. Decent, but not the best, pay along with good health benefits, large amounts (in US terms) of leave, extra holidays, and a pension program. Now I don’t see why anyone would want to work for the federal government. A common sentiment amongst government workers are that you are there for at least one of four things:
1.) Early retirement/pension - In the older days you could potentially fully retire as early as 50.
2.) Healthcare - You got to keep it into early retirement and it was typically better than any private or business insurance or medicare.
3.) Stability - Once in you would probably never be laid off or fired.
4.) Ulterior motives - A lot of government workers do what they do because they get something else out of it. Someone working at the EPA might get a sense of fulfillment and earnestly believe they are making a difference. Likewise someone working in ICE might be getting their failed-military-abuse-of-power rocks off on the bit of power they have over others.
Well the stability is gone, the pension only matters if you have the stability to get to 30 years, and the healthcare is getting worse over time.
They also used to have better-than-normal paid time off but non-govt companies have caught up on that, especially in the tech sector.
And they had a good 401k equivalent (403b) match, but again companies have caught up or surpassed this now.
Some of my old colleagues still work in govt and they have been MISERABLE for the past year and a half (return to office, DOGE/deferred resignations, chronic understaffing, and now this shutdown nonsense).
They also used to have better-than-normal paid time off but non-govt companies have caught up on that, especially in the tech sector.
Unless you try to actually take it. That can be career-limiting.
But how is the government going to pay for this guy?
deleted by creator
More proof that the GOP and all their supporters are enemies of the people of the United States of America.
He’s going to steal backpay for workers he sent home. That’s wage theft, and a good way to get your employees to hate you until the end of time.
this is why air traffic controllers are calling in sick. they took pains to assure workers would get pay eventually which is why this never happened on previous shutdowns. real genius this guy and the thing is even if he reverses course you can’t trust him to not reverse again.
If there’s no backpay, think they’ll demand back taxes?
Something something UNIONS
Memos aren’t law. Back pay will be payed eventually.
Agreed. There’s clearly a 90+% chance there will be back pay.
I get that the Trump administration is loathsome, but it’s really disheartening the number of people on here who will throw all logic and reason out the window if it means they can doom-jerk over how evil the administration is.
Once the back pay inevitably happens, everyone who said otherwise on here will just ignore they were wrong, and move on to the next thing that’s obviously false.
To be clear, I’m not defending the Trump administration. It’s been a dumpster fire, and they obviously aren’t above completely violating the law to get their way.
But denying back pay doesn’t make sense on its face. It’s a nonsense position. And the fact that people can’t see that just feels like backwards QAnon to me.
With the unfathomable uncertainty that government employees have faced this year, who can really say what will happen in regards to back pay, RIFs, etc. illegal lines have already been crossed, and I imagine there will be years and years of lawsuits. Personally I still have a sliver of hope that our laws will be upheld one way or another (either by the admin realizing they need to follow the law, or by force of the courts) – despite much evidence to the contrary.
I hope this is just another empty threat they don’t follow through on, even though the memo alone has undoubtedly caused more stress to the government employees. If they try to actually withhold back pay and the courts stop them, then it will at least help give credit to the courts upholding the law. And if the courts allow this to happen… Well, I keep hearing how we are living in unprecedented times, so I also wouldn’t be too surprised at this point.
Don’t tell Trump that.
Says who?
The year is 5157, and JcbAzpx is finally right about one thing…
The “law doesn’t matter” fatalists forget that the people who would be needed to implement a court ruling are the same group being threatened with their pay being withheld. The core of legal fatalism is that few people will risk their own personal best interests to stand up against tyranny, but in this case they’re not standing up for someone else, they’re writing checks to themselves and all their work friends for thousands of dollars. They’re in a better material situation by writing the check, getting fired, and filing a lawsuit than just meekly going along.
This is what concerns me about this whole thing, its like it’s to break morale of all the government workers to either leave or become so desperate to keep their job and pay that some may be willing to do anything in those specific roles they’re targeting.
Fuck those guys for letting Congress shut them down. Am I right?
/s
