That we should be striving for it even though it may take a while
Why
just wait. it will work. we promise.
no, don’t be critical of us not being able to give you any details. that’s mean. just trust us. we know better than you.
It’s never existed. Not in it’s pure form anyway. But neither has capitalism, or socialism either for that matter.
A theoretical system is always in some way perverted and coopted by the people implementing it. Humans are the weak part of the equation because humans are greedy and focused only on themselves and their own small group of friends/family. So scaling any political system up from theoretical to an actual national policy always ends up with a perverted form where one group ends up over another group despite the original theoretical intent of the system in question. That goes for Communism, Capitalism, Socialism, as well as religion too.
Humans suck and can’t have nice things without fucking them up.
yep. but every ‘true believer’ believes they are different and they totally wouldn’t be like that…
The truest truism that ever did truism is that “power inevitably corrupts”
Works great until people become involved.
That being said, you can say the exact same about capitalism.
Only takes one person pissing in the punch bowl to make it a piss bowl.
Good on paper, never works in practice.
The classic line
I have never seen it functioning outside of theory and doubt that it can. I like social democracy with a lot of regulation.
Where have you seen capitalism work? Or what are your metrics for “it works”? And which states do you consider being failed communist states? And why did they fail in your opinion?
Capitalism works pretty well for me…
Ok. and surely there’s nobody that could say the same about communism?
Well, everyone seems to think communism hasn’t been effectively enforced in any country. So, no, nobody could say that and keep that argument valid.
If you look at countries like Cuba, I’d argue that it’s working pretty well considering the circumstances.
Cuba has the highest ratio of doctors per 10k capita (95), their life expectancy was constantly rising until covid happened.
The biggest issue they have is being isolated by the USA, which also enforce that isolation across the northern hemisphere.
Its ironic you bring that up considering Cuba is one of the worst developed nations to be a doctor.Yeah and those doctors make 60 bucks a MONTH. They have to work abroad, or hold second jobs. Even when they work abroad a huge percentage of the money is funneled back to the government. They have a tremendous problem with corruption. Electricity is out constantly. They also have a horrific track record with political prisoners and massive human rights abuses in said prisons. They have zero freedom of speech and can be put in prison for even participating in threads like this one. I’d say thats a poor example.
Well, in the US you can easily get into ICE camps if you look like you could be not white enough, if you study medicine you’ll start your life with hundreds of thousands in student debt (that you won’t get rid of, even with a bankruptcy), and I’d argue that the current US administration is as corrupt (or worse), so I am not sure what you’d be looking for in a Country to consider it better or as good as a capitalist country?
Ah, but all those states aren’t TRUE capitalist states. That’s why we can’t point to a successful example.
Anything beats capitalism
i live in a “communist country” and communism does not exist
How do you mean?
there’s nothing communist about it. it’s as capitalist as anywhere else, with even less regulation than somewhere like the united states. communism is just a brand, like “democracy”. no government that im aware of is actually trying to create it or wants to create it.
In theory it could work if everyone living under it are selfless and 100% in on it, but that’s simply against human nature. Also, a resource distribution system based on “trust me, bro” will at best be inefficient or corrupt, in most cases both.
We’re currently living through an era where liberalism+capitalism is really showing its asscracks, but I’d take that over communism. But I can understand why communism may appeal to some who have never managed to get ahead in our current system.
Greedy people are going to fuck everyone out of power and resources no matter what.
if people actually studied it in college, you wouldnt be so quick to supporting it without knowing the ins and outs of the system. people/tankies fantasizes it alot, without actually reading the whole meaning behind it. thats why fall very easily for the extremes of politics.
The reason lots of manifestos, communism, bell hooks, whatever, are these 50 page outlines is because… well fleshing out the details would quickly make the idealism of the utopia collapse.
Notice how they never talk about enforcement mechanisms? yeah…
Everyone I’ve ever met who lived under it says it’s was fucking awful. Not a single endorsement. That’s significant because even capitalism has boosters. Not communism.
I object to the term “capitalism”. The correct term is “classical liberal” (modern liberals are something else with very little in common). I boost capitalism because it is a result of freedom, and that also informs when I will limit my support for capitalism.
You appear to be using the term “capitalism” in a confusing way. From etymonline:
The meaning “political/economic system which encourages capitalists” is recorded from 1872 and originally was used disparagingly by socialists.
Words can change meaning and all that, but when people complain about capitalism, they don’t mean what you’re talking about. You seem to mean something like “well-regulated free market”, and other people mean “broken, exploitative system that worships greed”
Good in theory, problematic in practice. A goal to strive towards but not achieve.
The main problem is that the dictatorship of the proletariat is so easily corrupted into a regular ol dictatorship. It’s supposed to be a transitional period, but when that much power is in play, it’s hard for people to give it up - and even when they’re willing, they can just get ousted by less scrupulous people.
Making it safely through that passage is like a Great Filter of socio-economics
Communism is old, and young. The principals of communal living are the oldest form of human organization. It’s also the most common form today if you count small groups like family.
But as an organizing principal for government, it’s a baby. The Communist Manifesto was published in 1848. The Bolshevik revolution was in 1917. So the whole idea of communism is < 150-200yo. Compare to capitalism at this age and it’s all slavery and settler colonialism; the most massive redistribution of wealth through theft in history.
The logic that communism is a bad system because the Soviet Union should also condemn capitalism because the Dutch East India Company.
Makes the problems of capitalism even worse. Instead of the owner class you get an even smaller political class controlling all means of production - the party leadership. It becomes even more prone to corruption than capitalism.
Adding to problems is the planned economy - it always results in misaligned incentives, bad allocation of resources, constant shortages…
Third, possibly the worst, is the constant insistence on ideological purity and severe punishment of “thought crimes”. Or as they like to call it “counterrevolutionary activity”.
Even though it was created out of good intentions, I don’t believe a lot positive aspects can be salvaged.
Lemmy always beating the socialist drum, yet I’ve never once had an answer as to how socialism prevents power and money from being concentrated at the top. Communism is the even worse version.
Communism is by the way a classless, moneyless society that never existed on a grand scale after civilization existed. So how can money be concentrated on top of a communist society, if money doesn’t even exist in a communist society???
Socialism is meant to be the necessary precursor to reach communism. It is often defined as that the working class own and control the means of production together. (meaning factories, machines etc.) Right now in capitalism, the ones that own the means of production are the capitalists, the bourgoeis class.
In marxist theory, the worker is the only one actually creating the value. So if a capitalist makes money off a workers’ work, it’s exploitation. The capitalist state works to protect the rights and interests of the capitalist and is ever ready to carve away the rights of the working class even if that means to transition into a terroristic form of the capitalist state: fascism.
Now, the socialist revolution aims to break up the capitalist state and to establish a socialist state. That only works if the workers unite. Thats why the capitalists try to keep us divided to upkeep their power.
The socialist state is a state where the production is controlled by the workers for the workers. It is planned together to fulfill the needs of the people, instead of the blind capitalist goal of profit increase.
To work together effectively, to have a refined strategy for the revolution, we need a communist party. This party must be accepted as the revolutionary leadership through their natural competence in marxist-leninist theory. It has to be decided by the wide working class, and only then the revolution can work.
Now to your question: How to keep the power from being concentrated in the hands of the few: The communist party needs to be and stay the tool of the working class until the transition into communism. It shouldn’t be allowed to “eat up” the state. It needs the well educated worker, about democracy, marxist theory and many rights to say in the system. It should be protected from bureaucratic calcification which may stifle the development of a democratoc socialist state that acts in the needs and interests of the working class.
At some point in the soviet union that failed. But today we are in a lucky position to know and learn why.
Some self-proclaimed socialist/communist countries weren’t really socialist according to Marxist-Leninist theory but were revisionist, making up their own theory that doesnt fulfill the needs of the actual working class. These can be authoritarian etc.
Then there are socialist governments that became more authoritarian because of external pressures, C.I.A.-backed counter-revolutions wanting to restore capitalism etc. If youre self-isolating as a sole socialist state among capitalism, you will eventually get crushed under the pressure. Because for capitalism, crushing a socialist state is potential for new markets, natural resources, etc. Another reason is wanting to stop socialism from spreading. More socialist countries, less countries to imperialistically exploit.
Why categorically exclude socialism from the discussion? Think about why it’s made to be such a taboo topic in regular political discussion. The more I read about socialism, the more I know that it’s the way to go. But people need to rid themselves of the redscare propaganda that they were taught early on.
We can make a better, modern socialism. Imagine the possibilities nowadays with the internet, computers and machine learning. We could make a great planned economy for everyone.
I think it’s susceptible to the same problems we have now. Elites gonna form and do their thing. Whether they’re in the party or on the board of directors, the effect is the same.
I think we’re just way too naive about systems. We expect them to work for us without putting in any effort. We should stop focusing so much on systems and start focusing on communities and cultures.
The best societies have tight-knit communities and a culture of cooperation. You can’t achieve that by passing laws or writing a new constitution or whatever. You have to get buy-in from everyone.
The best societies have tight-knit communities and a culture of cooperation.
You’re describing high trust societies I think. (1).
