So… scammers tried to get him to give $12,000 dollars to the person coming to his house. He figured out it was a scam, and rather than calling the police to come deal with the scammer, he shot the person six times? What the ever loving fuck is with people?
I mean, tbf, if he’d called the police they’d probably have shot the person 6 times. Maybe he just felt like cutting out the middle man?
She was black.
Yup. I’m totally sure that had nothing to do with this guy’s response to her coming to his door.
Misleading headline. As written, it sounds like someone shot their taxi driver for mistakenly thinking they gave them the wrong change. In reality it was an uber parcel courier who was shot while unwittingly acting as a money mule for a phone extortion scammer.
Usually these scams involve money mules who are in some way complicit, in the “ask no questions and look the other way” sense, and who receive a cut of the money they launder. But this time it was a bona fide courier from a courier service (the article mentions Uber working with police to identify the user account that placed the delivery order) - a case of literally shooting the messenger.
So the old man did not wrongly think he was being scammed, he was literally being threatened and robbed for $12k, just not by the uber courier. The headline is clickbait for not making that clear. The courier was not being scammed, just performing a routine paid delivery that happens to be for a criminal.
It is insane to shoot a taxi driver for giving you the wrong change. It is not insane to shoot in self-defense someone robbing you for $12k. Unless you are so anti-gun as to argue that self-defense is never justified and we should just roll over and let ourselves be robbed/kidnapped/murdered, but then I’d say it is you who are insane. Even in my liberal guns-practically-banned state, shooting and killing a robber is perfectly legal (NY PEN 35.15 2b). Here, a robber doesn’t even need to explicitly threaten to use deadly force against you first - being in a robbery is specifically listed among a few select crimes automatically considered to be a life-or-death situation. You can also, even as a non-police officer, use force to detain a criminal or to prevent escape from custody, which is the situation that happened in the article.
Under the law, you have to shoot or detain the right person though. You not only have to think they are guilty, and not only does your thought process have to be reasonable, they have to also actually for real be guilty. If you kill an innocent, you are liable for murder. If you arrest an innocent, you are liable for kidnapping. That’s what the court trial is there to determine. The old man failed on the latter two requirements and was justifiably found guilty. A police officer has an additional qualified immunity. They can arrest someone who they think is guilty, and not get in trouble if the person turns out to be innocent. As far as I understand it, legally this is the only distinction between a police officer and a private citizen in US law.
Also, neither a police officer nor a private citizen can use deadly force to prevent escape (other than a few special cases, like in prisons). That’s another strike against the old man. If a police officer had shot the courier trying to walk away like that, they too would be (or ought to!) put on trial for murder, as that’s not covered by qualified immunity. Like in the example of that guy who got killed on video in 2015 while trying to walk away from a traffic stop.
No amount of money is worth another person’s life you sick fuck.
Lethal self defense is only justified in absolute life or death situations, and this absolutely isn’t one of them. I personally believe even further that one has a moral duty to attempt not to kill an attacker, merely stop them, and have them face legal justice. The boner some people have to shoot an intruder is disgusting.
I guess I’m so anti-gun that I think getting robbed is not a reason to kill someone.
Self-defense means defending yourself or somebody else, not your stuff. Your stuff can be replaced. A functioning state leaves headroom for this instead of forcing you to put your own life at risk for $12k, and/or becoming a murderer for $12k.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the law.
Someone has to robbing you, be entering your home illegally (castle doctrine states), or in some way threateningyour life to justify deadly force. A scam like this would be classified as fraud or larceny (depending on applicable state laws) not as robbery.
Additionally yes you can detain a criminal in many jurisdictions under a citizens arrest. This is limited in scope and does not allow you to use deadly force. There’s some caveats here, for example if the person you tried to detain pulled a knife, but those are not relevant here. This woman did nothing to justify the use of deadly force. Most likely the crime he believed was committed does not align with Ohio’s citizens arrest laws. They tend to be limited in scope.
That’s it. He was in no threat of physical harm here. That’s when you are allowed to defend yourself. Being coerced by words does not count unless they are threatening violence (leading to a reasonable belief of harm). If you read the article this was a bond scam saying he owed money for missing a court date. That is not threatening bodily harm.
Thankfully there was a sane jury and at the very least this man will spend the rest of his life in prison.
Yes, you are right! A scam is not one of the specified crimes. As I understood it from the article, the phone call started out as a regular bondsman scam, but then escalated into threats of harm to the old guy and/or loved ones held in custody at the remote end (?), which elevates the severity, possibly up to a robbery-in-progress. The caller must have dropped the pretense at some point given that the old guy realized it was a scam yet still had the money ready to go in a package on the table. I’d have to read the actual court case to know what really happened, which is too much work, so I wrote my response under the assumption that the old guy was told a family member would be harmed unless he gave the money to an associate who was on the way.
In such a situation, it would be reasonable to initially detain the courier for investigation. If police officers were hiding in wait at the house, they would have done the same thing. It was unreasonable to continue to believe the courier was an associate once it was clear it was an uber driver following an app. So the old guy was guilty for detaining an innocent person without qualified immunity, and crazy for not listening to an explanation of what an uber driver is. Notwithstanding this, there seemingly were threats of physical harm through the phone, so if the old man did treat it as a robbery, and if the courier had been an associate, and the associate did get detained (by the old guy or by the police), and the associate did attempt to escape, there could be a situation where there was an imminent threat that the associate would return to join his accomplice on the phone and the two of them would inflict the promised harm upon the family member they were holding hostage. That would justify the use force up to possibly deadly force to stop the escape. It depends on what exactly was being said on the phone, though again we don’t have the court transcript. Unlikely but possible.
Of course none of this happened, the courier was an innocent bystander, there was no hostage, and the old man was totally unjustified for opening fire under these circumstances. But that what the court trial is for. I do not dispute the outcome and I’m glad this person is now in prison. What I don’t like is the headline saying a crazy guy shot a taxi driver over some missing change (that he himself misplaced). And then people argue that all self-defense is unjust because it lets crazy guys like this get away with murder. Which he did not get away with. And he was not crazy in the way the headline described it, but was in an intense situation which he might have been led to believe was life-or-death. And in the process he did violate self-defense rules in three specific ways. So we’d better learn the rules, and consider in advance our personal approach to the use of force, so we can act cool under pressure later. It could happen to you too.
If you had to place a dollar value on your life, what would it be?
Well, we wouldn’t be the first people to consider that question. This is basically why life insurance policies don’t cover suicide.
You might be surprised at how low the number is for a lot of people. What’s perhaps sadder, is that due to exchange rates, lives are worth more in some countries (some currencies) than others.
I guess my only point is that yes, some people can put a price on human life, even their own - and so probably others as well.
Apparently for the guy I replied to, it’s 10mil for them, and 12k for others. I don’t think any conversion rate can dig you out of that one.
Yeah, that does make them kind of a dick.
In this economy?
Last time I considered this it was $10M, though I might need to update it for inflation now.
That is irrelevant here though, because a robbery is considered a life-or-death situation in law not because of the monetary amount, but because of the everpresent threat of bodily harm. Whether explicit, with a pointed gun, or implicit. “Give me your money!” … or else… is implied. If the criminal could reach into your pocket and take your money without use of force, without you even knowing, it would not be a robbery but a pickpocket larceny and precisely not covered by deadly force. But a criminal ordering you to give your money is a deadly situation, even if you only got $0.10 in your pocket.
You are implying we should value human life and just hand over the money, but that’s not the issue here. There is no guarantee that you would not be harmed even if you cooperate. A fast food place in my city got robbed, the cashier handed over all the money but the robber got mad there was only $100 in the register, and shot dead the cashier and the customers. The criminal has already demonstrated reckless abandon by engaging you in a robbery, there is no longer any expectation (as would be with any normal stranger) that physical harm would not imminently follow. Next to a literal attempted murder, a robbery is the most dangerous confrontation you could ever find yourself in. I am glad that the law of my state treats it as serious as that.
If you are in a robbery and you are absolutely sure that no harm would come to you if only you cooperate, that is nice, and you can graciously demonstrate your value of human life by handing over your $100, or $12k, or $0.10 or whatever, but such security is not a privilege everyone shares.
Holy shit that picture is insane and so fucking sad. It’s been a min since I read something so startlingly depressing that was completely unrelated to the authoritarian regime we’re living under, but that picture says a thousand words.
Endemic violence is completely related to the fascist regime. It’s one of the reasons why the US is such fertile ground for fascism
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It’s not completely unrelated, why the fuck is a 61 year old (the victim) out driving Uber?
Why wouldn’t they?
I use rideshare constantly and in my experience most uber/lyft drivers are either immigrants, people between jobs, or retirees looking to make extra money/socialize.
Hmm, I noticed a pattern between those groups: All vulnerable and desperate for work
Some of the retirees are just legitimately bored but the rest for sure
Plus 61 is still younger than retirement age. Maybe he tapped out of a different career or wanted something a little simpler before going for a full retirement. Maybe he was a cabbie and prefers uber as he has more control over his schedule.
I spend time in central Florida every year (Orlando/Kissimmee). Many of the ride share drivers I come across are retiree, often also immigrants, looking to socialize. Last guy I rode with was originally from Nicaragua, in his seventies, got his citizenship in the 1980’s, and just does ride share for two hours three times per week, simply to chat with the passengers. Slowest ride from the airport ever given that he never went past 45mph, but the chat was pleasant.
People rarely openly admit it’s going badly for them.
Most Americans think they are temporarily inconvenienced future billionaires.I didn’t anything about whether or not things were going bad for them, just the general types of people I see driving for rideshare services. There certainly are the temporarily embarrassed billionaire grindset mentality types but I wouldn’t say that’s most people at all.
Because they need money, and ride-sharing is a rare job that gives a person complete control of their schedule, so they can work around work, school,.etc schedules.
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Whatever happened to “Don’t shoot the messenger”.
That’s why you don’t start shooting around because of money. Leave shooting for life-endangering situations.
When money is just as important if not more than life in your society or civilization it’s easy to blur the lines between human life and money. Look at all the oil wars under the premise of some bullshit like capitalism based freedom which is basically modern day slavery. People literally died to make Dick Cheney rich.
The fact you guys are getting downvoted is wild
A few thousand dollars is not worth a life. It’s horrifying and sad that people disagree with that
At the moment there is 14 comments on this thread, and not single one is questioning why the old timer had a gun.
American gun culture is just wild.
He probably bought it
It’s not relevant, everybody’s got a gun.
Probably mostly because it’s a question we already know the answers too.
Canadian chiming in here. Many of our old timers also have guns, they are just responsible enough to not shoot uber drivers. The question is not why did he have a gun but why did he use it in this manner.
Anyone have an idea of what the scam was and how it was supposed to work? Ride share drivers and customers should be aware of it.
From the article, this doesn’t sound like a scam specific to Uber/Ride shares.
What we know:
- “an Uber driver who he wrongly thought was trying to rob him after scam phone calls deceived them both”
- “wrongly assuming she was in on a plot to get $12,000 in supposed bond money for a relative, authorities said.”
- “The driver fell victim to the same scammer, driving to Brock’s home between Dayton and Columbus to pick up a package for delivery, according to investigators.”
There are a lot of ways to scam people over the phone: tech-support/refund scams, Scams where legal action is threatened unless you pay (ex: IRS scams), emergency money requests from friends in trouble (ransom scams, bond scams, etc), pig butchering scams (a.k.a romance scams or when you get that random text from someone pretending to reach out to the wrong number), employment scams.
Since we know that the man fell for a bond scam, it’s likely that the Uber driver was scammed into working as a money laundering mule for the real scammers. It’s very likely that the Uber driver had fallen for one of the other scams and then she was told to pick up packages where she could earn some of “her” money back. She would get more as long as she only took a certain amount and forwarded on the rest. Either that, or she was scammed into working for a “company” where “clients” send in packages of money, and she transfers it to different accounts as well as a little to her own.
Edit: formatting
This article does not give me enough information. Idk if I have the time or procrastinating allowance to go down this rabbit hole but I really want to read the full court transcripts.
Yeah it wasn’t super clear from the story except to say they both were being scammed.
She just thought she was there to pick up a package
He thought she was there to steal $12K from him.
Not sure if it was supposed to be a “prank” but shit is fucking awful, and whoever set it up is somehow still out there free to go about their life like they didn’t ruin countless others
As far as I’m aware, it was a scammer that wanted a money mule (someone to pick up a package of money from someone they’d tricked, and deliver it to the scammer or a place where the scammer could then have someone launder it), but they didn’t want to go through the process of actually hiring any kind of person, so they used the Uber Courier service, where any old Uber driver can pick up a package and deliver it to another location/person.
As far as that woman was concerned, someone had probably just left behind a package and needed it delivered to a friend’s house or something. No prank necessary.
