DEI is nowhere near as serious, a white male will have the advantage in the next job they apply for.
The problem with false accusations being trusted without evidence, is that it can ruin peoples lives.
I know it’s not the PURPOSE of MeeToo, but I’ve seen this results in many cases. Especially people being fired on mere accusations without evidence. Sometimes on things dating back 10 and 20 years, and sometimes despite the accused had many other women he had worked with vouching for him.
People (managements) probably don’t do this because they are evil, but because they are afraid that if they don’t kick out the “evil” man, they will face a shit-storm of bad PR.
We had a case here in Denmark, where such a firing of a TV host was based on a lawyer investigation, and after about 10 years in courts, it was final decided by our supreme court that the investigation was flawed and performed contrary to good practices. And the lawyer was later judged in civil court based on this to pay compensation.
But the man had not been able to find himself a job for 10 years because of that “investigation”. This was a DIRECT result of MeeToo which was revealed both the female management and the female lawyer were strongly supporting.
There are a lot of wackos out there, and they are absolutely not all men. Just see for instance Amber Heard.
Ten years ago I was a bit Reddit commenter. I saw the left’s YouTube videos, I saw how all the subs there became echo chambers, banning anyone who dared have an opinion that wasn’t left of Stalingrad.
I remember because the years ago I repeatedly warned people. Where do you think that these pretty normal people will go? They’ll go to more welcoming places like dat right fora, and get radicalized into the right.
That is my accusation to the left: you fucked up badly by pushing out anyone who just wanted to have a conversation instead of agreeing without question.
You pushed these people right into the camp of a then bumbling idiot who had some charisma and who tirelessly complained about these stupid leftist antics that they hated too, so they joined team trump.
The movement definitely created a chilling effect. A lot of guys now are simply afraid to talk to women in public. Everyone walks around in their own bubble. It’s incredibly lonely and isolating.
As for whether we should judge anything based on intent or on outcome, that’s a complicated question in itself. I’m afraid too many like to judge their friends/allies on intent but their opponents/enemies on outcome, always taking the least charitable interpretation. That’s altogether human, of course.
“For my friends, everything; for my enemies, the law.”
I still question if that chilling effect was actually the movement or the fascist/conservative spin put on it to radicalize young men. It’s practically identical to the anti-feminist propaganda that conservative political groups have been using for decades.
Meetoo is 100% contrary to the morality of it’s better to let 10 innocent people go than to judge one innocent person.
that’s the supposed foundation of our judicial system.
In Denmark where I live we already see innocent people going to jail on false accusations of rape. We had one such case for instance last year, where one woman was the reason for 4 men going to jail for years, but she admitted to a family member of one of the accused that she had lied, unfortunately for her, she was being taped.
It’s absolutely insane that we condemn people on nothing but an unproven allegation. That is not how the judicial system is supposed to work. And you can see on the statistics that women are consistently favored in the judicial system already, both here and in USA and most western countries.
Women are already seen as the ones that need protection, even in cases where they aren’t.
And you edited the fuck out of the comment I responded to, how very Good Faith of you!
The MeToo movement was about holding abusers accountable for their actions, and trying to take some of the shame away from being a victim.
That’s it.
Falsely accusing someone of rape is wrong, sure, and if that’s what the MeToo movement was about, you’d have a point, but… it wasn’t. That just seems to be your take.
MeToo movement was about holding abusers accountable for their actions,
I have absolutely no problem with that part, but we’ve seen examples where it cased a reversal of the burden of proof, the mere accusation against someone, can ruin their life, even if they are innocent.
That’s the problem with holding the courts in the street as MeToo has often done, instead of in actual courts.
Obviously the reason MeToo exist is that the problem they address is real, and I acknowledge that women needs to be protected against that problem. But when what is considered sexual assault becomes 100% subjective, and a man can be accused of it, by merely taking an elevator with a woman, then we are at the level of insane. And this is not just hypothetical, an entire congress of hundreds of people was disrupted on exactly this issue. The woman admitted the man didn’t even approach her, but she was offended that he dared enter the elevator with her, as to her she claimed it broke her boundaries.
Men can’t be required to behave according to such paranoia of women. And for comparison, the man could say the same, that women shouldn’t enter an elevator with a lonely man, out of fear he might be accused of rape.
That is insanity. And is not based in any form of moral standard. Being psychotically paranoid should not be treated as the norm.
If the woman asks if a man could please take the next one, I bet 90% of men would respect that. In case someone doesn’t, it must be the woman that leaves the elevator, because it is her that has a problem using elevators normally.
The message should have been “take accusations seriously” rather than “believe women”.
Justice can be messy and unsatisfying. The “me too” movement highlighted a lot of patriarchal flaws in the current justice system, but it also sought to create its own separate “cultural justice” system even more flawed in the other direction. Believing every accusation is how we ended up with so many innocent black teenaged boys getting lynched in the south.
We will probably never know the real numbers- how many sexual assault are unreported, or how many sexual assault accusations are false (or perhaps target the wrong person). But there is a very good reason that the justice system applies “innocent until proven guilty”.
The message should have been “take accusations seriously” rather than “believe women”.
100% this!
The “me too” movement highlighted a lot of patriarchal flaws in the current justice system,
It’s not all bad, it is OK IMO that they caused more focus on the problem, but it escalated too far IMO.
I’ve often heard stories of women being rejected at the police station already when they are received there.
Of course I’ve also heard women being treated with great care and consideration for what they have (likely) experienced, and that should of course be the norm throughout the system. But the point where a criminal case is raised should be based on the evidence, which unfortunately is a HUGE problem. But I just don’t see any alternative. And hanging people out publicly in media without evidence should absolutely be illegal.
Expect down votes like there is not tomorrow. People didn’t like hearing this 10 years ago and they don’t like it today either.
Of cour rape is bad but if you day that not all men are rapists, you get people staring at you like you’re the devil and you get accused of being a rapist for saying that.
I remember them hollowing out the word rapist. I remember the woman accusing this guy of rape because they both stayed late drinking at the hotel bar and when they went up, in the elevator, the guy asked the girl if she wanted to come to his room for a nightcap. She said no, he went to his room alone. Clearly rape! Of course she claimed that on YouTube but not with the police because reasons.
I haven’t forgotten the crap that came from the left back then. I also haven’t forgotten all those people that flocked to trump because of the behavior of so many on the left.
Of course, the left was behaving obnoxious and toxic, but they weren’t terrorists. Mostly. That is of course for as long as you didn’t get the nazi label on you, because then they might actual hurt you, and getting that Nazi label back then was sooooo easy. Just step slightly out of the party line, have a slightly less extreme opinion and tag, you’re it.
Hey, I’m suddenly thinking that at least that improved now! Now the word nazinis at least used for, you know, actually neo nazi wannabe losers
These fuckers are the reason trump won the first time back then, they pushed so many people to the right. But if you’re waiting for some self reflection from them, some “maybe we shouldn’t have cheapened the word rape?”, or “maybe we shouldn’t accuse people of rape, especially when we know they didn’t do anything wrong” you can wait a long, long time.
Oohh, now reminds me of this scientist, a Nobel laureate that made some joke, some reporter made a huge deal out of that joke being mysogenistic, it went viral, he had to quit his job over a random little joke he made and then of course it turned out that the reporter made it all up. At least she apologized profusely and did everything she could to make it right. Nah, I’m kidding, nothing was done, no apologies, fuck that guy, he is a white male, and fuck those guys, right?
Reminds me of that time when a bunch of guys organized a meeting to talk about male suicide. You know, a place where those that are left behind van talk about what happened, try to give eachother support. So a feminist group thought it a great idea to stand outside and harrass and taunt all the guys going in. I still recall the (paraphrased) “I’m happy your brother died, one less white guy” type comments.
Yes. We now live in a nazi world, and yes, it’s bad and yes, these people are evil. But FFS, how hard can it be to take some accountability for pushing normal people towards this? You pushed them put of every conversation. You banned them from all the normal forums with normal people. So of course they went to other places because what else could they do? And they found a welcoming place in right wing fora and flourished and everybody patted themselves on their backs because they got another “nazi” out and another step closer to having an echo chamber where nobody disagrees.
Yes, we live in a horror show today, and yes, you, left, started it a decade ago.
I’m afraid the PC ideology goes a bit too far on the left sometimes.
But as I see it, the right is way way more constantly overboard on NOT being PC, and is repulsive.
At least the idea of being politically correct is to protect the weak, unfortunately that too can go to far, when it tilts the burden of evidence so far it becomes reversed, and you have to prove innocence to be cleared.
MeToo went way to far, claiming every man ever accused of sexual assault is guilty is insane.
One could also downvote this because you disagree with the characterization.
DEI is nowhere near as serious, a white male will have the advantage in the next job they apply for.
The problem with false accusations being trusted without evidence, is that it can ruin peoples lives.
I know it’s not the PURPOSE of MeeToo, but I’ve seen this results in many cases. Especially people being fired on mere accusations without evidence. Sometimes on things dating back 10 and 20 years, and sometimes despite the accused had many other women he had worked with vouching for him.
People (managements) probably don’t do this because they are evil, but because they are afraid that if they don’t kick out the “evil” man, they will face a shit-storm of bad PR.
We had a case here in Denmark, where such a firing of a TV host was based on a lawyer investigation, and after about 10 years in courts, it was final decided by our supreme court that the investigation was flawed and performed contrary to good practices. And the lawyer was later judged in civil court based on this to pay compensation.
But the man had not been able to find himself a job for 10 years because of that “investigation”. This was a DIRECT result of MeeToo which was revealed both the female management and the female lawyer were strongly supporting.
There are a lot of wackos out there, and they are absolutely not all men. Just see for instance Amber Heard.
Ten years ago I was a bit Reddit commenter. I saw the left’s YouTube videos, I saw how all the subs there became echo chambers, banning anyone who dared have an opinion that wasn’t left of Stalingrad.
I remember because the years ago I repeatedly warned people. Where do you think that these pretty normal people will go? They’ll go to more welcoming places like dat right fora, and get radicalized into the right.
That is my accusation to the left: you fucked up badly by pushing out anyone who just wanted to have a conversation instead of agreeing without question.
You pushed these people right into the camp of a then bumbling idiot who had some charisma and who tirelessly complained about these stupid leftist antics that they hated too, so they joined team trump.
And here we are today.
The movement definitely created a chilling effect. A lot of guys now are simply afraid to talk to women in public. Everyone walks around in their own bubble. It’s incredibly lonely and isolating.
As for whether we should judge anything based on intent or on outcome, that’s a complicated question in itself. I’m afraid too many like to judge their friends/allies on intent but their opponents/enemies on outcome, always taking the least charitable interpretation. That’s altogether human, of course.
“For my friends, everything; for my enemies, the law.”
I still question if that chilling effect was actually the movement or the fascist/conservative spin put on it to radicalize young men. It’s practically identical to the anti-feminist propaganda that conservative political groups have been using for decades.
Well that’s… certainly an opinion
Meetoo is 100% contrary to the morality of it’s better to let 10 innocent people go than to judge one innocent person.
that’s the supposed foundation of our judicial system.
In Denmark where I live we already see innocent people going to jail on false accusations of rape. We had one such case for instance last year, where one woman was the reason for 4 men going to jail for years, but she admitted to a family member of one of the accused that she had lied, unfortunately for her, she was being taped.
It’s absolutely insane that we condemn people on nothing but an unproven allegation. That is not how the judicial system is supposed to work. And you can see on the statistics that women are consistently favored in the judicial system already, both here and in USA and most western countries.
Women are already seen as the ones that need protection, even in cases where they aren’t.
And you edited the fuck out of the comment I responded to, how very Good Faith of you!
The MeToo movement was about holding abusers accountable for their actions, and trying to take some of the shame away from being a victim.
That’s it.
Falsely accusing someone of rape is wrong, sure, and if that’s what the MeToo movement was about, you’d have a point, but… it wasn’t. That just seems to be your take.
I made changes to clarify, nothing else.
I have absolutely no problem with that part, but we’ve seen examples where it cased a reversal of the burden of proof, the mere accusation against someone, can ruin their life, even if they are innocent.
That’s the problem with holding the courts in the street as MeToo has often done, instead of in actual courts.
Obviously the reason MeToo exist is that the problem they address is real, and I acknowledge that women needs to be protected against that problem. But when what is considered sexual assault becomes 100% subjective, and a man can be accused of it, by merely taking an elevator with a woman, then we are at the level of insane. And this is not just hypothetical, an entire congress of hundreds of people was disrupted on exactly this issue. The woman admitted the man didn’t even approach her, but she was offended that he dared enter the elevator with her, as to her she claimed it broke her boundaries.
Men can’t be required to behave according to such paranoia of women. And for comparison, the man could say the same, that women shouldn’t enter an elevator with a lonely man, out of fear he might be accused of rape.
That is insanity. And is not based in any form of moral standard. Being psychotically paranoid should not be treated as the norm.
If the woman asks if a man could please take the next one, I bet 90% of men would respect that. In case someone doesn’t, it must be the woman that leaves the elevator, because it is her that has a problem using elevators normally.
The message should have been “take accusations seriously” rather than “believe women”.
Justice can be messy and unsatisfying. The “me too” movement highlighted a lot of patriarchal flaws in the current justice system, but it also sought to create its own separate “cultural justice” system even more flawed in the other direction. Believing every accusation is how we ended up with so many innocent black teenaged boys getting lynched in the south.
We will probably never know the real numbers- how many sexual assault are unreported, or how many sexual assault accusations are false (or perhaps target the wrong person). But there is a very good reason that the justice system applies “innocent until proven guilty”.
Right. Are we doing this yet?
Or are we still just complaining about “the left’s” sloganeering and wringing our hands over false accusations and the woke mob coming for us?
100% this!
It’s not all bad, it is OK IMO that they caused more focus on the problem, but it escalated too far IMO.
I’ve often heard stories of women being rejected at the police station already when they are received there.
Of course I’ve also heard women being treated with great care and consideration for what they have (likely) experienced, and that should of course be the norm throughout the system. But the point where a criminal case is raised should be based on the evidence, which unfortunately is a HUGE problem. But I just don’t see any alternative. And hanging people out publicly in media without evidence should absolutely be illegal.
Yeah, I remember, and yeah, you’re right.
Expect down votes like there is not tomorrow. People didn’t like hearing this 10 years ago and they don’t like it today either.
Of cour rape is bad but if you day that not all men are rapists, you get people staring at you like you’re the devil and you get accused of being a rapist for saying that.
I remember them hollowing out the word rapist. I remember the woman accusing this guy of rape because they both stayed late drinking at the hotel bar and when they went up, in the elevator, the guy asked the girl if she wanted to come to his room for a nightcap. She said no, he went to his room alone. Clearly rape! Of course she claimed that on YouTube but not with the police because reasons.
I haven’t forgotten the crap that came from the left back then. I also haven’t forgotten all those people that flocked to trump because of the behavior of so many on the left.
Of course, the left was behaving obnoxious and toxic, but they weren’t terrorists. Mostly. That is of course for as long as you didn’t get the nazi label on you, because then they might actual hurt you, and getting that Nazi label back then was sooooo easy. Just step slightly out of the party line, have a slightly less extreme opinion and tag, you’re it.
Hey, I’m suddenly thinking that at least that improved now! Now the word nazinis at least used for, you know, actually neo nazi wannabe losers
These fuckers are the reason trump won the first time back then, they pushed so many people to the right. But if you’re waiting for some self reflection from them, some “maybe we shouldn’t have cheapened the word rape?”, or “maybe we shouldn’t accuse people of rape, especially when we know they didn’t do anything wrong” you can wait a long, long time.
Oohh, now reminds me of this scientist, a Nobel laureate that made some joke, some reporter made a huge deal out of that joke being mysogenistic, it went viral, he had to quit his job over a random little joke he made and then of course it turned out that the reporter made it all up. At least she apologized profusely and did everything she could to make it right. Nah, I’m kidding, nothing was done, no apologies, fuck that guy, he is a white male, and fuck those guys, right?
Reminds me of that time when a bunch of guys organized a meeting to talk about male suicide. You know, a place where those that are left behind van talk about what happened, try to give eachother support. So a feminist group thought it a great idea to stand outside and harrass and taunt all the guys going in. I still recall the (paraphrased) “I’m happy your brother died, one less white guy” type comments.
Yes. We now live in a nazi world, and yes, it’s bad and yes, these people are evil. But FFS, how hard can it be to take some accountability for pushing normal people towards this? You pushed them put of every conversation. You banned them from all the normal forums with normal people. So of course they went to other places because what else could they do? And they found a welcoming place in right wing fora and flourished and everybody patted themselves on their backs because they got another “nazi” out and another step closer to having an echo chamber where nobody disagrees.
Yes, we live in a horror show today, and yes, you, left, started it a decade ago.
I’m afraid the PC ideology goes a bit too far on the left sometimes.
But as I see it, the right is way way more constantly overboard on NOT being PC, and is repulsive.
At least the idea of being politically correct is to protect the weak, unfortunately that too can go to far, when it tilts the burden of evidence so far it becomes reversed, and you have to prove innocence to be cleared.