Linus Torvalds reveals plans to rewrite the Linux kernel using the web dev langue: PHP. The news has cause controversy among the tech community

Finally i’m gonna be able to contribute!

    • xmunk@sh.itjust.works
      274·
      5 months ago

      PHP and C are both fine languages, they have their strengths and their weaknesses. They’re tools and if you feel the need to shit on them then you clearly need more practice using a diversity of languages.

      • toastboy79@kbin.earth
        9·
        5 months ago

        PHP is probably a fine language, my issue is I suffered dealing with so many shitty applications written in php when I was still coming up through the ranks of IT.

        God the number of broken WordPress installs and shitty WordPress plugins.

        • xmunk@sh.itjust.works
          7·
          5 months ago

          I understand your pain - the real reason for that is that PHP was the first “hobbyist” programming language so a lot of self trained folks built websites that ended up slowly morphing into successful businesses.

          One of the things I’m actually most proud of from the PHP community is that around 5.2 the maintainers looked around and saw sites like Quora and StackOverflow were littered with the worst fucking PHP advice endorsing functions like mysql_query and ill-advised features like magic_quotes so the community invested a lot of resources in purging answers that preached anti-patterns and replace them with non-terrible answers.

          I work in PHP and it’s perfectly serviceable now, we’ve got strict typing, namespaces, lambdas, all the nice shit you’d expect in a modern language.

      • Ephera@lemmy.ml
        6·
        5 months ago

        I mean, I’m a bit out of my water there, both in terms of the featureset of PHP and what’s actually needed for a kernel, but I’m still gonna go with no.

        For one, PHP uses reference counting + garbage collection for memory management. That’s normally done by the language runtime, which you won’t have when running baremetal.

        Maybe you could implement a kernel, which does as few allocations as possible (generally a good idea for a kernel, but no idea, if it’s possible with PHP), and then basically just let it memory leak until everything crashes.
        Then again, the kernel is responsible for making processes crash when they have a memory leak. Presumably, our PHP kernel would just start overwriting data from running processes and eventually overwrite itself in memory(?). Either way, it would be horrendous.

        Maybe you could also try to implement some basic reference counting into your own PHP code, so that your own code keeps track of how often you’ve used an object in your own code. Certainly doesn’t sound like fun, though.

        Well, and secondly, I imagine, you’d also still need an extension of the language, to be able to address actual memory locations and do various operations with them.

        I know from Rust, that they’ve got specific functions in the stdlib for that, see for example: https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/ptr/index.html#functions
        Presumably, PHP does not have such functions, because its users aren’t normally concerned with that.

        • TrickDacy@lemmy.world
          31·
          5 months ago

          Right – I’m not saying you could build a compiler then just go to town. You would still have to build all the tools, using PHP, to interact with hardware, the way other languages do. A horrible idea, lol, but interesting, sort of. Since at its core as long as you can execute logic and read/write to memory, you could do it, I think

          • Ephera@lemmy.ml
            3·
            5 months ago

            But that is what I mean with it needing an extension of the language.

            So, I’m not saying you could just build a library that calls existing PHP functions to make it all work. Rather I’m saying there’s certain machine code instructions, which just cannot be expressed in PHP. And we need those machine code instructions for actually managing memory. So, I am talking about reading/writing to memory not being possible, unless we resort to horrible hacks.

            Since we are building our own compiler anyways, we could add our own function-stubs and tell our compiler to translate them to those missing machine code instructions. But then that is a superset of PHP. It wouldn’t be possible in PHP itself.

            Again, I’m not entirely sure about the above, but my web search skills couldn’t uncover any way to actually just read from a memory address in PHP.

            • TrickDacy@lemmy.world
              21·
              5 months ago

              I mean, I think we’re saying the same thing, you just have better vocabulary than I :)

    • felixwhynot@lemmy.world
      4·
      5 months ago

      I did use a crypto mining OS that was Linux but with lots of scripts that were written in… PHP! I never thought I’d see it.

      • Ephera@lemmy.ml
        17·
        5 months ago

        How? You’d need to compile it down to machine code somehow, for the processor to have any clue how to run it. And you’d need some custom library with custom compile instructions, to be able to control memory allocations, memory addresses etc…

        I did a quick search and found two operating systems written in JS, both of which cop out when it comes to the kernel. Did you maybe mix it up with those?

        • frezik@midwest.social
          13·
          5 months ago

          There’s almost always at least a little ASM sprinkled into any kernel, so that’s not a big deal.

          OTOH, there is the factor of “you know how Chrome takes up 2GB per tab? What if that was a whole OS?”

    • Kojichan@lemmy.world
      1·
      5 months ago

      I’m learning Ruby on Rails. Would you recommend it as a good website framework? Or something else? I’ve already tried Laravel, CakePHP, Vue/Vite, and making my own from scratch .

      • Prison Mike@links.hackliberty.org
        1·
        5 months ago

        I do! I am self-taught but now have a great career going in it. My only complaint is that once you start requiring very specific gems, you’ll find a bunch of unmaintained stuff. Ruby was hyped up a lot in the beginning, kind of declined during the Node.js fad but is becoming a lot more stable and continues to show a ton of progress.

        These days if you want to get your foot in the door you can find work upgrading Rails versions as a lot of companies seemed to have released apps a long time ago then lost track of time.

        Realizing most of this sounds pretty negative but it’s a beautiful language that I love working in every day. The language is so flexible/usable that outsiders complain that it can encourage bad habits simply by being so maleable — my recommendation is to really know the difference between plain Ruby and Ruby on Rails.

        • Kojichan@lemmy.world
          2·
          5 months ago

          Thanks so much for your insight!

          I’m a self-taught programmer as well. Started with the basics way back when like Atari basic, GWbasic, built into Forth of all things, then C++/C#, PHP, JavaScript, etc., then into frameworks like Node, React, Vite , Laravel, CakePHP and stuff.

          I followed the Ruby online tutorial. It seems a lot like Zoho’s Deluge, but I heard it isn’t as optimized as Rust, so thank you for talking about Rails :) I’m excited to see what I can build!

          Also thanks for the warning about outdated Gems.

          • Prison Mike@links.hackliberty.org
            1·
            5 months ago

            I get the optimization issue for sure. Crystal is a language that exists but it just hasn’t gained enough popularity; it’s a compiled language that’s very close to Ruby syntax.

            • Kojichan@lemmy.world
              2·
              5 months ago

              Then I think I should learn Crystal. ;) I’ll gladly program in a language with the same name as myself. Hahah.

              Thanks again!

  • Varyk@sh.itjust.works
    275·
    5 months ago

    Update: thank you for pointing out to me which community this was posted on.

    I’m going to leave this post up as a cautionary tale for people like me who don’t pay enough attention!

    But Linux is cool cuz it’s so fast and it doesn’t break.

    Long as I’ve been using it anyway.

    So now linux is going to be much slower, going to break and be more susceptible to security breaches?

    I’m not a programmer, is the upside supposed to be that with so many more programmers able to work on the kernel, those issues will be able to be fixed by the extra programmers?

    It’s not like there’s anything wrong with Linux right now.