I love the docs ability to create databases from my docs. That would be super useful for work and research activities.
Right up until you are doing compliance and governance and you realize docs are actually a terrible terrible source of truth for any automated systems. We’re 3 years into a project at a healthcare company to rip google sheets and docs out of our apps and replacing them with Postgres, bigquery, dbt and dagster.
It’s simply not okay to have your database be something anyone with write access to a doc can fuck up a formula by accident on. Your medical bills being maintained by random formulas on dozens of linked spreadsheets maintained by hand by random people on different teams is part of why they are impossible to unwind. By the time someone audits it, it’s printing different numbers than when your bill was rendered and it’s version control doesn’t work to roll it back without breaking dozens of other things.
I’m in the engineering business. We have a PDM system that we check-in copies of component 3D models, PDF drawings and DOCs. Once your team has collaborated enough, you have a copy…once a week/day/hour depending on your preference. That way you can collaborate and keep frozen records and rev controlled documents.
Right. But you can’t do that in a live system like google docs. You can have a workflow to export copies, but the live doc is the one bigquery and linked docs utilize to function against your app. It’s actually a feature of the same tooling that makes using them like a database possible that causes it to not be versionable. So even if you export copies as you update it, you can’t move the system back to those copies without breaking other parts of the system.
Other systems for modeling data have better version control for running parallel versions of models if you need to recover how data had been constructed in an older state. It’s an incredibly bad idea to do this with Google docs at scale
Oh, you mean a spreadsheet?
No, because with the above you can have rich objects in databases (for example, a dynamically updated list of medical events, each with all the attributes I want, attachments etc.), and almost arbitrarily deep nesting of databases. The idea to have databases with pages is one of the key features that made notion successful. It allows to structure knowledge without duplication, in addition to provide some other no-code features.
Spreadsheets are not even close.
Exactly. Engineering research test write ups and results could be quickly searched for in a good document database.
What was wrong with libre?
The web browser is the future, especially for a crappy document editor and spread sheet.
Then just use Word online.
Not FOSS and probably not privacy friendly
Pretty sure Libre only does local document collaboration, having it online is helpful for teams far from each other or who simply don’t have the infrastructure for their own central server of this kind.
Well this has been running in our Nextcloud and works pretty well collaboratively :) https://github.com/CollaboraOnline/online not sure how it scales, but definitely an alternative that can be built on
Thanks for this; I may use it to build out my NextCloud server. I’ve already used it to replace shared calendars and contacts.
If you’re using Nextcloud All In One then it’s easy to enable it in the AIO settings.
If you’re not, I suggest looking into it. It’s the new officially recommended way of installing and it’s been great.
Nextcloud has an export/import data function but at the time I did it I only had a few GB of data so not sure how well it scales.
Just checked the part about self-hosting. While it’s probably possible to handle things with a less heavy approach, their only “easy to use” example right now is to have a full-blown kubernetes cluster at hand or run locally in the source directory. That’s a bit much.
Honestly, k8s is super easy and very lightweight to run locally if you know the rights tools. There are a few good options but I prefer k3d. I can install Docker/k3d and also build a local cluster running in maybe 2 minutes. It’s excellent for local dev. Even good for production in some niche scenarios
Seconding k3d (and, by extension, k3s). If you’re in a market for sth suitable for more upstream-compliant clustering solution (k3s uses SQLite instead of etcd, iirc), RKE2 is also a great choice
I don’t like the approach of piling more things on top of even more things to achieve the same goal as the base, frankly speaking. A “local” kubernetes cluster serve no purpose other than incredible complexity for little to no gain over a mere docker-compose. And a small cluster would work equally well with docker swarm.
A service, even made of multiple parts, should always be described that way. It’s easy to move “up” the stack of complexity, if you so desire. Having “have a k8s cluster with helm” working as the base requirement sounds insane to me.
Honestly, a lot of the time I don’t understand why a lot of businesses use k8s.
At my company especially, we know almost exactly what our traffic will look like from 9am-5pm. We don’t really need flexible scaling, yet we still use it because the technology is hyped. Similar to cloud, we certainly don’t need to be spending as much as we do, but since everyone else is on or migrating to the cloud, we are as well.
Kubernetes is not really meant primarily for scaling. Even kubernetes clusters require autoscaling groups on nodes to support it, for example, or horizontal pod autoscalers, but they are minor features.
The benefits are pooling computing resources and creating effectively a private cloud. Easy replication of applications in case of hardware failure. Single language to deploy applications, network controls, etc.
The “problem” with k8s is not that it’s abstract-y (it’s not inherently any more abstract than docker), it’s that it’s very complex and enterprise-y.
The need for such a complex orchestration layer is not necessarily immediately obvious, until you’ve worked on a complex infra setup that wasn’t deployed with kubernetes. Believe me when you’ve seen the depths of hell that are hundreds of separately configured customer setups using thousands of lines of ansible playbooks, all using ad-hoc systems for creating containers/VMs, with even more ad-hoc and hacked together development and staging environments, suddenly k8s starts looking very appetizing. Instead of an abominable spaghetti of bash scripts, playbooks, and random documentation, one common (albeit complex) set of tools understood by every professional which manages your application deployment & configuration, redundancy, software upgrades, firewall configs, etc.
A small self-hosted production kubernetes cluster doesn’t have to be hard to operate or significantly more expensive than bare-metal; you can buy 3U of rack space, plop in 3 semi-large servers (think 128 GB plus a few TB of SSD RAID), install rancher and longhorn, and now you’ve got a prod cluster large enough for nearly every workload such that if you ever need to upgrade that means you have so many customers that hiring a k8s administrator will be a no-brainer.
Or you can buy minutes from AWS because CapEx is the absolute devil and instead you pay several times as much in OpEx to make it someone else’s problem. But if you’re doing that then you’re not comparing against “installing things the old-fashioned way”.
Yea I’m not a fan of helm either. In fact, I avoid charts when possible. But kustomize is great.
I feel the same way about docker compose. If it wasn’t already obvious, I’m biased in favor of k8s. I like and prefer that interface. But that’s just preference. If you like docker compose, great!
There’s one point where I do disagree however. There are scenarios where a local k8s cluster has a good and clear purpose. If your production environment runs on k8s, then it’s best to mirror that locally as much as possible. In fact, there are many apps that even require a k8s api to run. Plus, being able to destroy and rebuild your entire k8s cluster in 30s is wonderful for local testing.
Edit: typos
I won’t argue with the ups and downs of each technos, but I recently looked into docker swarms and it was all I expected kubernetes to be, without the hassle. And I could also get a full cluster with services restored from scratch in 30s. But I am obviously biased towards it, too :)
k8s is overkill for a lot of homelabs. Using docker compose is a fraction of that complexity
Yes if single node, kinda if 2-3 nodes, no for anything above that IMHO.
There are many reasons to use k8s. Managing multiple nodes is one good one. But more importantly, k8s gives you an api-driven runtime environment. It’s really not comparable to docker compose.
Please develop this self hosted version using sandstorm
It makes hosting a breeze with one click installation
In the README there’s also instructions for Docker Compose, although it’s quite the compose file, with SIXTEEN containers defined. Not something I’d want to self-host.
it seems to contains development containers and external services containers. So the compose file is more for local dev it seems
What i do find weird is the choice for Django for the backend. Python is incredibly slow, and django rest framework is even worse.
Nice, DINUM is doing a lot so great to see go beyond with supra national collaboration!
I’m using NextCloud (Germany and international open source community) hosted on Webo (Slovenia) with data centers in Germany and Helsinki (so I bet on Hetzner). I’m happy with it but I’ll keep on eye on https://github.com/suitenumerique/docs
I’d be curious, they use Minio which puts S3 first. Does it mean Docs (the official instance) is relying on AWS?
If so IMHO that’s not a great default EU sovereignty.
FWIW if others are curious https://github.com/suitenumerique/docs/issues/755 opened an issue
I thought that MinIO is a Open-Source S3 implementation, which you can just install on your own system. S3 is a “protocol” here IIUC.
Is your complaint that they are using the S3 protocol, because it was invented and is controlled by AWS?
Or that some services might use it without MinIO, directly on AWS?
Seems I misunderstood, if it’s solely the branding (of that implementation) then it’s fine. I thought they relied on AWS itself.
I would assume (without having looked at the codebase) that if they use minio they are, by default, not reliant on AWS.
Minio is its own S3 implementation which can be self-hosted.
S3, being an AWS protocol originally has
AWSenvironment variables all over the place but that does not necessarily mean a reliance on the service. Rather, they rely on the protocol and you bring your own S3 endpoint I would assume. be that minio, hetzner or what have you.Thanks for the clarification, that makes sense, closing the issue then.
Really cool. I tried to sign up but you have to be part of an officially recognized organization in France and input their registration number as part of the process.
Yeah I thought this was open to the general public, I didn’t realize that it was not
I definitely don’t want the government attached to my personal files, in any country.
Nice. Where is the source, on github (I didn’t see it but I only skimmed)? Federated? Self-hostable?
Github: https://github.com/suitenumerique/docs
Self-hostable, but it seems like an absolute behemoth of an application if their “non-production-use-only” docker-compose file is to be believed, and I couldn’t find any production-ready deployment instructions on a quick skim. No obvious signs of federation and I didn’t see anything on their roadmap, not sure it would make a lot of sense for this though.
Deployment instructions start with the prerequisite that you have a full kubernetes cluster with ingress laying around, so… yeah. It looks like it’ll be on the heavy side.
https://github.com/suitenumerique/docs
Self-hostable, needs Minio (or any S3 compatible system).
From briefly looking over the toot, I think the German version is called openDesk (bad choice as there seems to be some interior design software with the same name) there is a community version you can self host in a docker container. They apparently also have distro packages for Debian and Ubuntu but they seem to have stopped development on those.
Here’s a link: https://opendesk.eu/en/
openDesk is a complete suite of open source software. I guess Docs could at some point become a part of it. But it‘s not the same thing.
Really glad to see the EU adopt more open source software as a way to combat the centralized control some of the american software companies have over the space.
If I can copy and paste with thought having to install the offline plugin, then I’m in.
Yeah, it is called Word. Works on all computers, is free to use the web based version, and is the world standard.
It does not work on my work-computer, since office macros and some formatting renders differently across versions. Other required software constraints make windows unusable for me.
Word won’t install on machine.
LibreOffice does, though.
Hey, this is a Python project, use underscores.
Proprietary bullshit
Maybe I missed something, but since when Word is not only an alternative to an office suite, but also a web-based one?
Office365 has had a web app version of word since 2011. So more than a decade.
But even a web-based version of Word can’t be a Google Docs alternative, because Word can’t into spreadsheets and presentations.
Is there a German-hosted instance? The URL https://docs.numerique.gouv.fr/login/ is making me wanna barf and no way I’m clicking it to risk seeing more Fr*nch.
lol what did the French do to you?
It’s okay, you can curse on the internet.
No America’s club
Can the UK get some of that?
It’s just for the French civil service, right?
Calligra and LibreOffice already exist though. I am not against this in principle but couldn’t they have invested in an existing FOSS project?
Wait LibreOffice has a cloud?
While both of those are great software. Unless I’m not aware of something they aren’t cloud/network based office suites like Google docs and office 365.
It seems this is an alternative to office software where you can work simultaneously and share documents in the same cloud/network.
I don’t think there is an alternative to office 365 and Google docs at this point that is open source. So this seems like a great project and I’ll definitely be considering it for our company.
There’s onlyoffice for cloud based office
Onlyoffice seems a little slack on the security and updates. I saw the warnings in the desktop package, have they made sure the online offerings are secure?
If there are issues like this, sounds like a good goal for a country that wants to divest from US tech companies.
There is nextcloud and others you can self host at least.
What about Collabora Online? It integrates nicely into Nextcloud, but I am not sure about pricing for business use.
https://www.collaboraonline.com/collabora-online/
Guide for self hosting: https://collabora-online-for-nextcloud.readthedocs.io/en/latest/install/
Thanks I’ll definitely check that out. I’ve seen some posts about it working on Synology Nas devices so that’s very interesting.
If you ever diverge away from proprietary Synology solution, NextCloud has 100% integration with Collabora too.
Can either of those do collaborative editing? I usually think of that feature when I think of Google Docs
A lot of government programs don’t really make sense and are there just to put a name on a CV sadly. Collabora Online does exactly that and is primary licensed under Mozilla Public License.
They could have easily expanded Collabora. But you know, can’t stamp your name on it.
To be fair, though a new project might not be as efficient as improving another, projects learn off each other, and sometimes it’s good to have developmental ‘competition’, and variety.
What does this do over what the collabora tools in Nextcloud do?
NGL I keep forgetting NextCloud has collaboration tools.
