“Outdoor cats” are just cats. They are not a domesticated species, hunting is their instinct, and should just not be introduced in places where they wreck havoc to the environment. Where they are endemic (Europe and continental Asia) they don’t cause troubles to the ecosystem
As long as you spend time providing your cat proper enrichment to express their hunting instincts, an indoor cat will be just as happy as an outdoor cat.
In my experience it highly depends on the cat. Some are perfectly content with proper scratchers and toys inside, some just visibly suffer staying inside, it might help we are far from the busy city with plenty of green and huntable animals, but most of our cats spend ~80% of time outdoor during summer and ~30% during winter.
I’m not saying they are not killing birds, or mice, or small preys in general. I know they hunt. What I’m saying is that cats are invasive only in places they never where before human brought them (like Australia or small islands). In continental Eurasia, they have always been there, and the environment is adapted to their presence and will not significantly suffer, not more than any other predator.
Wrong. Outdoor cats pose a significant risk to birds in Europe as well, especially because Europe has massively reduced the habitat of wildlife in recent centuries.
Cats found 200-500 meters away from any property are shot by hunters in Germany. Between 2007 and 2022 over 160,000 cats were killed in just 5/16 German states (the remaining one’s don’t publish numbers).
A single district in Northern Germany has had 660 cats shot within a year. In the dstrict’s state 2580 cats were shot in total. Note that the “landesweit” doesn’t refer to countrywide but rather to statewide (as German states are called “federal countries”).
What you’ve presented is a deeply biased opinion piece, and it wears this immense bias on its sleeve. It fearmongers that thinking about cats as killing wildlife could cause “extremism” (it then cites as its lone example a man who suggested banning cats in New Zealand; soooo scary). It cites some organization called “Alley Cat Allies” who call it extremely biased with ostensibly zero credentials. They cite lobbyist and serial sexual harasser Wayne Pacelle formerly of the Humane Society who questions the methodology but even concedes: “We don’t quarrel with the conclusion that the impact is big.” And lastly, King herself does her own analysis on this meta-analysis’ methodology despite being – I emphasize – a professor of anthropology with no background in this field.
So your article has no one familiar with this field who could challenge if these statistical assumptions are actually reasonable. And here, given the authors are experts (and absent some published literature rebutting this in the 12 years since), I have no reason to believe their methodology would be so off as to meaningfully change the idea that “outdoor cats” are severely problematic.
The first source I use is just a scoentific article. That’s it.
The third source is just a scientific article. That’s it.
The second source that I use to cite “dozens of extinctions” is quite emotionally charged, but here’s where that’s different: I could find a billion sources more credible than that NYT article about the dozens upon dozens of species who’ve met their end thanks to the domestic cat. These sources would give it an unemotional, academic treatment, yet I like how the NYT piece is narratively engaging rather than dry-ass “X et al. reported…”
I used scientific sources for (1) and (3) because those are claims people might actually think to contest. Moreover, the NYT doesn’t let itself slip into using garbage sources for the sake of its narrative. I could replace this source in two minutes, and then your argument about emotionally charged imagery would dissolve.
The reason I care so much about King’s massive bias in that article is because that bias is reflected in how absolutely egregious her sources are. She seems to genuinely not care how factual what she’s saying is as long as it conforms to her personal feelings, and so she turns it into assembling literally every source she can possibly find no matter how obscenely flimsy. She’s grasping at straws the entire article.
I don’t think most people’s backyard is some kind of wildlife exclusion zone, and the problem isn’t specifically that cats are killing animals in other backyards that the neighbors called “dibs” on first.
The cat obviously isn’t being attended to while it’s outside.
The owners clearly imply that their other two cats have done the same thing and brought them dead animals before.
Cats don’t give a fuck about ‘property lines’. Period.
Cats will kill even when they don’t need to feed. Lock them up.
I love our cat, and I don’t want to see it squished in half by a car. I keep it inside. It’s a rescue, I know it was an outdoor cat before. It’s fine now.
We’re going through the biggest disinformation crisis in human history thanks exclusively to the Internet’s profound ability to change minds by spreading and normalizing bullshit, but “it’s just not gonna work” when it’s something you specifically don’t want to hear.
Edit: ironically, my mind was changed after hearing someone bring this up on the Internet and then reading the scientific literature.
Yes, but disinformation being spread far and wide isn’t the same as a single commenter on the internet trying keep people from letting cats outdoors. And for the record, I agree, letting cats outside isn’t good for the environment. Just pointing out you’re not gonna change a lot of minds.
Well… Not entirely true. It was a comment not dissimilar to the one at the top of this thread that made me realize we shouldn’t be keeping cats outdoors. We had always had the indoor/outdoor cat and never really thought anything about it. After that comment and doing a little research all of our cats became indoor cats from then on.
My dad actually did this with their patio. It’s fenced in with a 2.5m high net. Of course, this assumes the cat in question is docile enough to not want to climb it, which their current cat happens to be.
The whole reason for the fenced patio is because of their previous cat, which became blind at old age. So she could then still safely explore the outdoors.
You can do this, true. However, this obviously isn’t true for this post because it implies it’s normal for the other cats to bring in dead animals, which probably wouldn’t happen in a screened in patio.
While I understand the sentiment, its a hard line. I waffle with it being sometimes impossible to avoid.
With that said, my parents have an outdoor cat still going from my middle school days; he’s currently 23 y/o, and still able to hold his own. I’m always impressed visiting because I expect to hear he passed when in fact he’s yelling about wet food not being available when he’s makes his appearance. Most of his days are spent laying on their back porch, and I’m insanely jealous of how full and long of a life he’s experienced.
It is far from impossible to avoid. If you can’t control a cat and keep them indoors then you shouldn’t have a cat. It’s as easy as that.
If you have a kid and let them run in the road, no one will accept your excuse that it’s just too hard. You either shouldn’t have had a kid or you need to take responsibility for them, or have them taken from you. The same applies to a cat.
I’m a waffler from way back, and the wording in that sentence I waffled on the “right” description for where I fell into.
Since being in my own and having multiple days, I don’t think it’s completely impossible for me. I let our cats out with our supervision so they can roll in the grass and enjoy the outdoors; then, we bring them right back in.
My parents never want to get rid of cats, so if any of them were not able to “properly behave” indoors they would be put out as a barn cat. Was it wrong to do that? To them, they’re still caringv and care for the cat, they just didn’t like its behavior. This also was in a small town where going to the pound likely meant kill shelter.
To date, they’ve rescued around 15 cats from off the street, and about 3/4 stayed in the house.
My parents never want to get rid of cats, so if any of them were not able to “properly behave” indoors they would be put out as a barn cat. Was it wrong to do that? To them, they’re still caringv and care for the cat, they just didn’t like its behavior. This also was in a small town where going to the pound likely meant kill shelter.
They aren’t bad people for it. They’re just ignorant (not an insult, it just means they don’t know something) of the harm cats do. Their intent is good, but you can still do bad things with good intentions.
It would be better that they go to a kill shelter. I know that sounds callous, but why is it worse that the cats are put down rather than letting them kill a bunch of other animals? There’s death both ways. They just ignore all the death the cats cause.
Devil’s advocate: humans cause an excess of death beyond that of cats: is it better to put humans down to prevent them from causing mass death?
I’m not disagreeing that they cause harm, but its a philosophical argument of utilitarianism that deaths of a subset would be better no matter what, right? It’s a nuance that can’t necessarily be put to black and white contexts. That’s all I wanted to put forward, but I may have messed up my argument trying to distill to a sentence or two.
Devil’s advocate: humans cause an excess of death beyond that of cats: is it better to put humans down to prevent them from causing mass death?
Maybe, though at least humans can make an effort to minimize their harm, and some can actually do good. Cats can’t really do this.
I’m not disagreeing that they cause harm, but its a philosophical argument of utilitarianism that deaths of a subset would be better no matter what, right? It’s a nuance that can’t necessarily be put to black and white contexts. That’s all I wanted to put forward, but I may have messed up my argument trying to distill to a sentence or two.
Sure, but again things are dying either way. More things are dying with the cats living outdoors. What makes a cat more valuable than a bird, or tens of bird, or hundreds of birds (or mice, or whatever else)?
The only moral framework that I could think would justify this is hedonism, if the cats bring them happiness and that’s all that matters.
It is categorically not ever “impossible to avoid”. Not only is your cat statistically healthier indoors, but any excuse for why it’s not possible is complete bullshit unless you can offer one up that isn’t. Owning a pet is a responsibility, not a right; just because it’s “harder” to take proper care of your pet doesn’t absolve you of that responsibility.
Anecdotes are not data. This is “I have a grandma who’s 106 and she smokes 26 packs a day and drinks a pint of leaded gasoline before bed.”
It is categorically not ever “impossible to avoid”.
Exactly. It might be hard to keep a cat inside literally 100% of the time, but that’s not an excuse. My cat has run out the door or knocked out the window screen a couple of times and been outside for a few hours before we noticed and caught her, but that certainly doesn’t make her an “outdoor cat!”
There is no situation where it is impossible to avoid. I’m glad your cat has had a good life, but in general, outdoor cats are still far more likely to die young to diseases, accidents, and wildlife.
You should be aware this is an extremely American sentiment bordering on ignorant. Nowhere else in the world do you find people berating people for letting cats go outside.
Even in America, you won’t find it. It’s only coming from chronically-online people who are afraid of everything.
I’m sure if you could communicate the dangers to your cats, most of them would still choose to go outside. Locking cats indoors their entire lives is cruel.
While I agree that cats are fine outside (while supervised and/or staying within their own yard - a small harness and leash can do the job), cats are just as healthy and happy staying indoors. My own cat actually refuses to go outside despite enjoying looking out the window all the time. I tried taking him outside a couple times to get him some exercise and he absolutely hated it. Different cats enjoy different environments.
You’re absolutely wrong. They’re native to the region around Turkey, so it’s not really an issue there. Everywhere else, it is. Yeah, a lot of third world countries don’t give a shit because they have other problems to worry about. It doesn’t make it not an issue though, and many countries have issues caused by them.
The cat that became the house cat is obviously what I’m talking about, not random distantly related species. I assume you know those aren’t the same species, right?
They’re part of that ecosystem. The domestic cat is not, except in the regions around Turkey. The ecosystem has developed to not collapse with the species that currently exist in it. When you add an invasive species, things can go horribly wrong very quickly as the native species are not adapted to defend against them and the native predetors or not adapted to hunt them. Their populations typically grow out of control and their prey often collapse.
But I’m sure you’re aware of this and know this about other invasive species. You’re just being annoying about domestic cats.
Years ago my indoor housecat would always try to rush out the back door whenever it was opened. One day she finally managed it and then wouldn’t come back in. Okay, shut the door. She proceeded to freak out and start yowling when we shut the door and left her out there for a few hours. Whatever, weather was nice and yard was enclosed.
Let her in after a few hours when it got dark, and she stopped trying to bolt outside. Nobody suffered, cat finally appreciated her cushy indoor life, and that was a win.
None of the shelters or adoption agencies near me will even let you get a cat if you don’t say it will be kept indoors on the papers. Cats can easily be given the same level of enrichment indoors by playing with them.
Keeping your cat indoors is only cruel when you don’t care enough about them to play and provide enrichment to make them happy, in which case you shouldn’t have a cat.
Humans along with their cats and pigs have done a lot of damage to biodiversity around the world. It’s just one element of the 6th mass extinction we are causing.
“Outdoor cats” are an invasive species that kill billions of animals every year, are a significant contributor to dozens of species’ extinction, and live shorter lives than cats properly cared for (i.e. kept indoors) including nearly 3x the risk for infections.
It’s a plague. We can’t keep normalizing this.
Yeah but birds aren’t real.
Thanks tech, did not appreciate the original post b/c of how lightly it treats the killing of wonderful beautiful birbs
“Outdoor cats” are just cats. They are not a domesticated species, hunting is their instinct, and should just not be introduced in places where they wreck havoc to the environment. Where they are endemic (Europe and continental Asia) they don’t cause troubles to the ecosystem
As long as you spend time providing your cat proper enrichment to express their hunting instincts, an indoor cat will be just as happy as an outdoor cat.
In my experience it highly depends on the cat. Some are perfectly content with proper scratchers and toys inside, some just visibly suffer staying inside, it might help we are far from the busy city with plenty of green and huntable animals, but most of our cats spend ~80% of time outdoor during summer and ~30% during winter.
put a camera on them if you think they’re not killing birds. seriously.
I’m not saying they are not killing birds, or mice, or small preys in general. I know they hunt. What I’m saying is that cats are invasive only in places they never where before human brought them (like Australia or small islands). In continental Eurasia, they have always been there, and the environment is adapted to their presence and will not significantly suffer, not more than any other predator.
Wrong. Outdoor cats pose a significant risk to birds in Europe as well, especially because Europe has massively reduced the habitat of wildlife in recent centuries.
Cats found 200-500 meters away from any property are shot by hunters in Germany. Between 2007 and 2022 over 160,000 cats were killed in just 5/16 German states (the remaining one’s don’t publish numbers).
Source? Never heard of that. German sources are fine as well.
That’s where the 160,000 deaths number came from. The largest German nature conservation NGO is also quoted as saying cats are a danger to birds.
A single district in Northern Germany has had 660 cats shot within a year. In the dstrict’s state 2580 cats were shot in total. Note that the “landesweit” doesn’t refer to countrywide but rather to statewide (as German states are called “federal countries”).
Nobody minds them when they’re catching rats.
Domestic cats arent the problem; ferals are…usually from owners who abandon them.
We dont have a bird shortage by any stretch…they come and eat the leftover cat food.
I definitely do mind, as much as when they kill birds or even insects.
A pet shouldn’t be allowed to murder all day long.
Those numbers are suspect. https://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2013/02/03/170851048/do-we-really-know-that-cats-kill-by-the-billions-not-so-fast and probably are a majority unowned cats. It’s not important to make sure your cat is spayed or neutered than making sure it stays indoors.
What you’ve presented is a deeply biased opinion piece, and it wears this immense bias on its sleeve. It fearmongers that thinking about cats as killing wildlife could cause “extremism” (it then cites as its lone example a man who suggested banning cats in New Zealand; soooo scary). It cites some organization called “Alley Cat Allies” who call it extremely biased with ostensibly zero credentials. They cite lobbyist and serial sexual harasser Wayne Pacelle formerly of the Humane Society who questions the methodology but even concedes: “We don’t quarrel with the conclusion that the impact is big.” And lastly, King herself does her own analysis on this meta-analysis’ methodology despite being – I emphasize – a professor of anthropology with no background in this field.
So your article has no one familiar with this field who could challenge if these statistical assumptions are actually reasonable. And here, given the authors are experts (and absent some published literature rebutting this in the 12 years since), I have no reason to believe their methodology would be so off as to meaningfully change the idea that “outdoor cats” are severely problematic.
I want you to know that I read through and appreciate this in depth write up and critique of the previous person’s source/citation.
Mine was a deeply biased opinion piece, and yours weren’t full of emotionally charged imagery and language? OK
Here’s the key:
I used scientific sources for (1) and (3) because those are claims people might actually think to contest. Moreover, the NYT doesn’t let itself slip into using garbage sources for the sake of its narrative. I could replace this source in two minutes, and then your argument about emotionally charged imagery would dissolve.
The reason I care so much about King’s massive bias in that article is because that bias is reflected in how absolutely egregious her sources are. She seems to genuinely not care how factual what she’s saying is as long as it conforms to her personal feelings, and so she turns it into assembling literally every source she can possibly find no matter how obscenely flimsy. She’s grasping at straws the entire article.
just stfu, you’ll live, ik your chronically online but you don’t have to be scared of everything
It’s reasonable to be
scaredapprehensive of contributing to the extinction of a few species.Going into your own backyard is a lot different than running through the neighborhood uninhibited.
Cats don’t give a fuck about ‘property lines’. Period.
Cats will kill even when they don’t need to feed. Lock them up.
I love our cat, and I don’t want to see it squished in half by a car. I keep it inside. It’s a rescue, I know it was an outdoor cat before. It’s fine now.
Maybe not, but you’re not going to change anybodies mind on the internet. Its just not gonna work.
Then why are you trying to convince us that you cant convince anyone?
Your whole argument is a paradox
We’re going through the biggest disinformation crisis in human history thanks exclusively to the Internet’s profound ability to change minds by spreading and normalizing bullshit, but “it’s just not gonna work” when it’s something you specifically don’t want to hear.
Edit: ironically, my mind was changed after hearing someone bring this up on the Internet and then reading the scientific literature.
Yes, but disinformation being spread far and wide isn’t the same as a single commenter on the internet trying keep people from letting cats outdoors. And for the record, I agree, letting cats outside isn’t good for the environment. Just pointing out you’re not gonna change a lot of minds.
Doesn’t have to be a lot. Even one changed mind for the positive is a gain. Simple as.
Hearing about this online changed my mind because I had no idea, and it’s easy to verify.
Well… Not entirely true. It was a comment not dissimilar to the one at the top of this thread that made me realize we shouldn’t be keeping cats outdoors. We had always had the indoor/outdoor cat and never really thought anything about it. After that comment and doing a little research all of our cats became indoor cats from then on.
Shutup they changed my mind you have no idea what youre talking about.
you’d need a very special backyard to fence a cat in
My dad actually did this with their patio. It’s fenced in with a 2.5m high net. Of course, this assumes the cat in question is docile enough to not want to climb it, which their current cat happens to be.
The whole reason for the fenced patio is because of their previous cat, which became blind at old age. So she could then still safely explore the outdoors.
You can do this, true. However, this obviously isn’t true for this post because it implies it’s normal for the other cats to bring in dead animals, which probably wouldn’t happen in a screened in patio.
that’s amazing! we currently keep ours indoors but i have plans for a catio
Sharing is caring
While I understand the sentiment, its a hard line. I waffle with it being sometimes impossible to avoid.
With that said, my parents have an outdoor cat still going from my middle school days; he’s currently 23 y/o, and still able to hold his own. I’m always impressed visiting because I expect to hear he passed when in fact he’s yelling about wet food not being available when he’s makes his appearance. Most of his days are spent laying on their back porch, and I’m insanely jealous of how full and long of a life he’s experienced.
Just close the door lol
It is far from impossible to avoid. If you can’t control a cat and keep them indoors then you shouldn’t have a cat. It’s as easy as that.
If you have a kid and let them run in the road, no one will accept your excuse that it’s just too hard. You either shouldn’t have had a kid or you need to take responsibility for them, or have them taken from you. The same applies to a cat.
I’m a waffler from way back, and the wording in that sentence I waffled on the “right” description for where I fell into.
Since being in my own and having multiple days, I don’t think it’s completely impossible for me. I let our cats out with our supervision so they can roll in the grass and enjoy the outdoors; then, we bring them right back in.
My parents never want to get rid of cats, so if any of them were not able to “properly behave” indoors they would be put out as a barn cat. Was it wrong to do that? To them, they’re still caringv and care for the cat, they just didn’t like its behavior. This also was in a small town where going to the pound likely meant kill shelter.
To date, they’ve rescued around 15 cats from off the street, and about 3/4 stayed in the house.
Nuance and all that jazz.
They aren’t bad people for it. They’re just ignorant (not an insult, it just means they don’t know something) of the harm cats do. Their intent is good, but you can still do bad things with good intentions.
It would be better that they go to a kill shelter. I know that sounds callous, but why is it worse that the cats are put down rather than letting them kill a bunch of other animals? There’s death both ways. They just ignore all the death the cats cause.
Devil’s advocate: humans cause an excess of death beyond that of cats: is it better to put humans down to prevent them from causing mass death?
I’m not disagreeing that they cause harm, but its a philosophical argument of utilitarianism that deaths of a subset would be better no matter what, right? It’s a nuance that can’t necessarily be put to black and white contexts. That’s all I wanted to put forward, but I may have messed up my argument trying to distill to a sentence or two.
Maybe, though at least humans can make an effort to minimize their harm, and some can actually do good. Cats can’t really do this.
Sure, but again things are dying either way. More things are dying with the cats living outdoors. What makes a cat more valuable than a bird, or tens of bird, or hundreds of birds (or mice, or whatever else)?
The only moral framework that I could think would justify this is hedonism, if the cats bring them happiness and that’s all that matters.
Well in that analogy tge drives also need to take responsibility
Agreed that it’s not empirical data
Exactly. It might be hard to keep a cat inside literally 100% of the time, but that’s not an excuse. My cat has run out the door or knocked out the window screen a couple of times and been outside for a few hours before we noticed and caught her, but that certainly doesn’t make her an “outdoor cat!”
There is nothing hard to avoid about your cat staying indoors. Stop it.
There is no situation where it is impossible to avoid. I’m glad your cat has had a good life, but in general, outdoor cats are still far more likely to die young to diseases, accidents, and wildlife.
I mean, not everyone who smokes is gonna get cancer, but no one is gonnna say that smoking doesn’t have risks. Same with outside cats
You should be aware this is an extremely American sentiment bordering on ignorant. Nowhere else in the world do you find people berating people for letting cats go outside.
Even in America, you won’t find it. It’s only coming from chronically-online people who are afraid of everything.
I’m sure if you could communicate the dangers to your cats, most of them would still choose to go outside. Locking cats indoors their entire lives is cruel.
While I agree that cats are fine outside (while supervised and/or staying within their own yard - a small harness and leash can do the job), cats are just as healthy and happy staying indoors. My own cat actually refuses to go outside despite enjoying looking out the window all the time. I tried taking him outside a couple times to get him some exercise and he absolutely hated it. Different cats enjoy different environments.
Did Australia recently sink into the ocean and I just missed it?
Um… I guess the rescue I got my cat from is cruel for adding a “keep the cat indoor only” clause? 🤔
Edit: I’m not taking a position on the indoor vs outdoor argument, just saying that its not exactly “cruel” to keep a cat indoors.
I think that’s a YMMV depending on the cat. One of my cats constantly begs to go outside (he gets walks), the other refuses to leave the house.
Yeah, no.
You’re absolutely wrong. They’re native to the region around Turkey, so it’s not really an issue there. Everywhere else, it is. Yeah, a lot of third world countries don’t give a shit because they have other problems to worry about. It doesn’t make it not an issue though, and many countries have issues caused by them.
What
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_cat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_mountain_cat
The cat that became the house cat is obviously what I’m talking about, not random distantly related species. I assume you know those aren’t the same species, right?
I thought the point was bird killing?
Yeah, house cats killing birds in regions they aren’t native to. Your comment still has notthing to do with that.
Those regions had wild cats killing birds already. China had domestic cats 5000 years ago.
They’re part of that ecosystem. The domestic cat is not, except in the regions around Turkey. The ecosystem has developed to not collapse with the species that currently exist in it. When you add an invasive species, things can go horribly wrong very quickly as the native species are not adapted to defend against them and the native predetors or not adapted to hunt them. Their populations typically grow out of control and their prey often collapse.
But I’m sure you’re aware of this and know this about other invasive species. You’re just being annoying about domestic cats.
I’ve heard it my whole life from my vets. I don’t know what you mean by “even in America you won’t find it”
Years ago my indoor housecat would always try to rush out the back door whenever it was opened. One day she finally managed it and then wouldn’t come back in. Okay, shut the door. She proceeded to freak out and start yowling when we shut the door and left her out there for a few hours. Whatever, weather was nice and yard was enclosed.
Let her in after a few hours when it got dark, and she stopped trying to bolt outside. Nobody suffered, cat finally appreciated her cushy indoor life, and that was a win.
None of the shelters or adoption agencies near me will even let you get a cat if you don’t say it will be kept indoors on the papers. Cats can easily be given the same level of enrichment indoors by playing with them.
Keeping your cat indoors is only cruel when you don’t care enough about them to play and provide enrichment to make them happy, in which case you shouldn’t have a cat.
Humans along with their cats and pigs have done a lot of damage to biodiversity around the world. It’s just one element of the 6th mass extinction we are causing.
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