- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
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The optics are shot, people have already heard dem leaders having meetings about his capabilities. The situations only going to deteriorate in the coming months as things are.
And yet, I and many others will vote for him. We cannot let Trump anywhere near the presidency. I honestly would vote for a dead frog over Trump. The staff that’s in place is competent, have done well for us, and I believe they’ll hold things together until Kamala takes over.
Of course we would all rather a much younger, charismatic candidate, but it is what it is.
At this point, I truly believe most Democratic voters understand the assignment.
Unfortunately, elections are not decided by people like us.
Wasnt really a statement of what you should do, just a prediction. If biden stays in the race i think Trump becomes president
We know you’ll vote for anyone with a “D” next to their name. Being a “safe” voter means the party doesn’t have to try and earn your vote. Thus, you can be safely ignored, because appealing to you won’t raise enthusiasm among undecided voters.
What’s amusing to me is how the DNC always fails to apply this logic strategically. If they’ve got such huge masses ready to vote blue no matter who, then what’s the harm in switching to another candidate?
Yeah, it’s always a puzzle whether the DNC is being malicious or just stupid.
A rabid chimp wielding a machete would honestly be safer than another Trump presidency.
At this point, I truly believe most Democratic voters understand the assignment.
What about independents? I think you need their votes to win, too.
I think independents understand the great danger Trump poses and are going to hopefully vote for the person most likely to defeat him, and at this point that is Biden.
You overestimate independents’ intelligence and engagement
Cool, now WSJ is publishing a pro-Biden op-ed, comparing him to…The Blessed Saint Ronnie Raygun (PBUH).
JFC, they really want to have donnie run against Biden…
Not “Democrats”. One specific Democrat needs to ask that question.
At this moment, with the Democratic convention just 39 days away, the only question worth discussing is whether Biden or Harris is the best candidate the Democrats have to beat Trump.
It is more likely that Trump will beat both when it comes to just focusing on winning.
The long-term goal should be to build a grass-roots third party so as to break the duopoly.
Dozens of us will continue to vote for that long-term goal.
Say no to MAGA and Blue MAGA.
We should focus our actions, time, and resources on Direct Action, Mutual Aid, and Community Outreach… No War but Class War!
build a grass-roots third party
I 100% agree with this, but good fuckin luck with that when Trump is shooting protestors and elections are cancelled until further notice
Blue MAGA
It’s not even 8am and I’ve already read the dumbest shit I’ll see all day
I for real don’t get how they cannot see that it is just identifying the person saying it as a shill (if the rest of the message didn’t give it away somehow). Far far more that than any of the intended effect that it might have on the discourse
Idk, plenty of dumb shit has made its way into the discourse, so maybe I am the one that is wrong and if they just keep repeating it enough it will have some kind of intended impact. But I cannot imagine it working for them in a good way. It’s just too transparent and dumb.
That’s what I did in 2016 and now our system is trending towards a fascist dictatorship with zero checks and balances and outright contempt for voting and voting rights. Any long-term goal is still predicated on having a functional democracy, which is essentially what this election decides, so don’t make the same mistake of making a hardline rush to the finish line while ignoring the leopards waiting to eat your face
The long-term goal should be to build a grass-roots third party so as to break the duopoly.
Dozens of us will continue to vote for that long-term goal.
I’m not sure if you mean “vote for a third party in this election to move forward the long-term goal of a third party”?
The only thing that will help is getting rid of FPTP elections. If we could both (a) avoid fascism, and (b) ensure ranked choice or other voting actually is implemented for all elections, I’d weather a lot of pain for that long-term result. But between the two, of course preventing fascism is more important.
A third party isn’t an option.
Vote Blue and, when they win, primary the hell out of your local reps, replacing neoliberal candidates at every level. Get every progressive candidate you can, be it for president or dog-catcher.
Basically, do what the Tea Party and MAGA did to the Republicans. Change the party from within.
Caveat: we don’t want this last part to happen the same as it went down over in R camp because (simplified) the og grassroots tea party was terraformed by moneyed interests into the maga it is today.
I really don’t have a good idea on how leftists trying to build a coalition would respond to this continuing attack on our democracy in a legal way.
Moot point atm i suppose
Long term goals aren’t up for discussion; we need to win in the next few months, or we’ll face another existential threat. This idiotic shit could get people killed.
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A third party won’t fix the issue, as long as you’ve got FPTP voting it’s gonna be a two horse race. You need the popular vote and you need proportional representation, and the only way to get those is by working from the ground up.
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I just want to see the evidence. Biden keeps saying that polls show he is the best choice to beat Trump, but he has either been neck-and-neck or losing by a few points in every recent major poll. So is he trying to tell us the polls are wrong? Or is there polling data that he has that they won’t release? How many Democrats of some noteriety were included in those polls? Were these polls taken before or after the debate debacle?
My mind would be more at ease if I could actually verify that Biden was the clear best choice. We’re just being told that there are no alternatives and we have to accept the gerentocracy is here to stay. The stark denial of reality that Biden is slipping in the polls during the most crucial election of our lives is not reassuring.
The only thing keeping me on his side right now despite my doubts is that party progressives are backing him while party centrists are trying to oust him. The centrists stand to lose the least if Trump wins, and likely have ulterior motives for going after him now unrelated to his mental fitness.
I’m so sick of these articles and headlines about how Biden should step down.
DNC had years to figure this shit out and back another candidate, but instead we had seemingly rushed primaries with no real challengers. At this point with less than four months until the actual election, who the hell do they expect will be a better choice? Because nobody has stepped up to the plate, and for all the talk of how Biden should step down, there’s been no discussion of who should step up in his place.
Just fucking back the man, unify, and rally to convince people to get out and vote. Best case scenario, we get a functional Biden, who is known for his work ethic and general attitude of doing the job without platitudes or bullshit. Alternative not so good cases are we get a diminished Biden who isn’t effective at the job, but also isn’t a fucking fascist, or Biden dies of natural causes at some point and we get a partial term of Harris as president.
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I did read it. But I’m not referring to just this article, but the dozens I’ve seen in just the past week. If the dems are convinced there’s a better candidate, actually convinced, we’d have a name by now. Literally anyone. But there’s been nothing. Just the step down discussion, with no discourse on who should be taking his place.
100% agree
The idea that some other strategy besides Biden might be better, as nutty as that sounds this late in the campaign, has quite a bit of merit. The idea that him resigning should come first, and figuring out and solidifying that strategy should come second, is clinically insane. Which is why outlets hostile to the Democrats are pushing it, which is why Democrats who have gotten confused into starting to back it themselves should be ashamed of themselves. Pretty sure that is the exact thesis of the article that dude is rudely insisting that you need to be reading.
There’s been no names because they were giving Biden a chance to clear the scandal and watching to see the polls. This was never something that would resolve right away and now it’s around the time we’d expect to see someone being put forward.
Also, this is very clearly a party leader putting Harris’ name forward.
The.article.doesn’t.matter since it’s always been a losing strategy to pivot to a new candidate. I’m thinking less Bernie/Clinton, and more Johnson/Humphries.
It’s still a binary choice: Biden or fascism. Frilly articles about what-if and “but his stammer” mean nothing when it resolves down to the same binary choice.
A great concern that not many talk about is, that he won’t be getting any better during the next 4 years. Even if he wasn’t old now, he’d become older while sitting in office, if he somehow managed to win.
somehow managed to win
What is your understanding of what the polls currently show?
I don’t really agree that polls mean much of anything, but I am curious what you think they show.
IPYWAIACCWTSYAOWTRIBCTTTSIIAWTBFB
Biden being on par with any unnamed Democrat and Harris +4 over Biden in head-to-head matchups with Trump.
Which poll was that?
https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/02/politics/cnn-poll-post-debate/index.html
Biden: -6 Harris: -2
And four points is well above the margin of error.
I’m gonna stick with my polls, which start from a standpoint of “let’s probe for the reality” instead of asking leading questions. There’s a lot about this story that is just weird and suspect.
Registered voters who said that Democrats’ chances In 2024 are better if the nominee is:
A lot of these polls have been polling both Republican and Democratic candidates, and then reporting the numbers letting that little nugget slide under the radar. 100% of the Republicans are gonna say that Biden is trash whatever the question is, because the ones who are still voting Republican are programmed like the Manchurian candidate to stand up and say “BIDEN IS THE WRONG ONE”
Beyond Trump’s advantages on the economy and immigration, the former president is more trusted than Biden on foreign policy (46% to 36%) and handling the role of commander in chief (43% Trump to 35% Biden).
IDK. I won’t say there is nothing in this story that is valid or a thing to worry about. And, even if Democratic voters are sticking with Biden basically unchanged since the debate, that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be a good idea to switch him for someone who doesn’t have this real oldness problem. But I like the apples to apples comparison of just looking at Biden vs. other Democrats in non-debate-centered-construction polls, and Biden vs. Trump overall, and seeing if that number shifts.
The thing is the outrage machine hasn’t spun up yet on full force against Kamala. Once they do that she will poll worse.
Not sure how, she’s a total nothingburger. They’ll try and make do with insults, slander, and bigotry, but they’ve already locked in the segment of the population that’s receptive to that anyway.
The majority of people really like and prefer Joe Biden’s policies. They didn’t vote him in office to debate. Democrats have no spine and are quit willing to be lead to the loser’s corner.
You forget, as as everyone always seems to, THE VOTERS ARE STUPID
As has always been 🥲
unfortunately, debates matter to a lot of people and may be the only time some people really pay attention to politics
Most people only bother to begin paying attention after the conventions.
Readily available for repubes to start yelling “democrats in disarray” “both sides are the same”. Hell, repubes don’t even have to do it. The mainstream media is already doing their bidding.
It’s crazy to see the difference in tone CNN and other major new outlets have adopted when talking about Biden, vs. how they talk about Trump.
With Biden it’s “What a national embarrassment, no way this man can lead in his current state, voting for him is nearly elder abuse and you should be ashamed of yourself.”
With Trump it’s “jeez get a load of this guy lol. He’s just so silly with the things he says, who would take him seriously about the crazy stuff? Might be worth a vote?”
The press is stupid
Political people, mostly on the conservative side, figured out long ago that if you just pushed hard a particular framing and narrative, the majority of the American political press would just kind of go with it as opposed to upset the herd by presenting a different framing. Once you’ve set the boulder rolling in one direction, you can just kind of let it go and it’ll follow the same path on its own. And they practiced the technique until they got really good at it.
A fun exercise to see it is to read an article, but flip the party and subject of the article to the opposite side. Like some gaffe that Biden made, say that Trump made it, or vice versa. The tone will seem wildly off kilter in this really unusual way.
It’s because if they challenge the narrative at all, they get cut out of coverage in the future. Then the other for-profit media outlets have coverage they won’t have access to and they’ll lose viewership.
It’s why something like the BBC can push candidates like they can, because if you cut out the BBC then you’ve cut out any televised national coverage in the UK. Here if ABC decides to really go after a narrative then Republicans still have Fox, NBC, CBS, etc
They are pushing hard with a heavy sprinkling of whataboutism and fearmongering 24 hours a day, which they learned from the successful fascists. It is an approach that works well with for profit news, even the ones they don’t own.
Trying to push just as hard for something positive wouldn’t be as successful.
We’re too trapped in a bubble if we think the white, non college-educated suburban housewives in Pennsylvania and Ohio that ultimately swung the 2020 election to Biden would vote for A) A woman B) A black woman C) A black woman who’s name sounds like “Obama”.
This is a bad place. And not most people, but most of the people who vote regularly, are just bad, broken, selfish, frightened people.
Then get Newsom to run. He checks all the traditional boxes.
Theyll vote down a Californian even faster, “MUH DRUG NEEDLES ON THE STREET, MILLION COST OF LIVING”, those will be the headlines for the four months before they turn into Magat pravda
Are we really worried about what Trump’s base thinks? I think if Newsom did even a modicum of campaigning he’d pull ahead. The “commie state” stuff only goes so far once he’s on the news talking about mainstream liberal stuff.
I think most people are voting D or R at this point.
I don’t think that those who are not voting that way are more likely to vote for a brown woman than an old white man.
I think Kamala is the only real option, as I don’t think it is above board to transfer the campaign finances off to some other candidate, to get the word out etc.
Lastly, I think a last minute change (while would Ideally be my choice) would ultimately be challenged legally by the Republicans and it’s ultimately go to the SCOTUS…
It is frustrating and sad but Biden might be our best bet… Unless there’s finances available for any possible new candidacy. But again that switch will create legal challenges.
There’s less barriers than you may think. For one the nominating convention hasn’t happened yet. The only state that was a potential barrier was Ohio, and they made a change so the final candidate can be submitted after there too. If dems nominate someone else at their convention, that person should be able to be on all the ballots nationwide. The convention is where the candidate is actually picked, not the caucuses or primaries.
The money currently in the campaign itself could be transitioned into a PAC. And yes while technically PACS aren’t supposed to coordinate with candidates, we all know that line barely even exists anymore. And some big donors are apparently already building up new funds to be given to a new candidate if that occurs.
I’m not certain a new candidate will guarantee a win, but I don’t think a politician known for making gaffes for decades now is going to suddenly stop in their old age. And every single misstep will create another flurry of speculation about his cognition, and suck all the air out of the room for the rest of the race. I don’t personally care, if Biden is elected and can’t cut it anymore cognitively than Harris takes over and it’s still miles better than Trump.
But I worry all of this will just drive down engagement and turn out and make things harder and harder until election day. And it’s clearly been demonstrated no matter how horrific trump acts or what terrible policies he promises or how badly his policies will hurt his own supporters, they aren’t budging no matter what. If a majority of democrats and that slim amount of independent and undecided voters want Biden out of the race based on all of this, I think the best chance to make sure they show up for the polls on election day and vote blue is that they’re given what they want.
Right, the PAC thing then gets brought to the SCOTUS, and do we wanna risk that?
If George Clooney gets a few billionare buddies to chip in 50M a head to put someone to the front it could work financially, but then who are we even getting?
The situation is dire. I don’t know that there’s a clear solution. All I know is how I’ll vote regardless.
I’m unclear why you think the PAC thing would go to scotus. That’s a routine thing. Like who would be sueing exactly, for what reason, and with what standing?
The money could be donated to a PAC or a political party, so it could also all be given to the DNC. It just can’t be used for personal use. It could get a little thorny if someone besides Harris was picked though and Harris didn’t want the money to go to help democrats for some reason, but that seems unlikely.
And yes I’m voting for whatever Democrat is on the ballet, I just want whatever gives the best chance of keeping Trump out and helping down ballot democrats in congress who will be needed for any chance of enacting any major changes.
I’m not at all American and I honestly don’t understand the American voting system but I will say this: basically anyone would do the job instead of Biden, it’s shocking that someone in his state is allowed to run for presidency again.
Old people are easier for lobbyists to manipulate. The US has a lot of old politicians for the same reason scammers target the elderly.
That may be a factor, but most of the old farts in office have been there for decades. They weren’t 70+ years old when they first got elected.
In the boomers case and older, even when they were young, they were easier to manipulate than the young people of the present. We not only know more now, everything we’ve learned is information literally at our fingertips on the internet.
Dunno why you’re getting downvoted, you’re right
The fear of Trump has cause many to overlook and burry all negative stories in general because people assume acknowledging faults is going to lead to Trump and overlooking it will somehow help Biden.
Honestly, we’re basically just voting for Kamala when we vote for Biden.
Jill then Kamala
This is what I’ve been thinking too. Cognitive decline isn’t necessarily fatal. Nancy Reagan used astrologers because she was lost and trying to keep up appearances.
Dunno what Jill/Joe will do. But if he was inclined to step down, I don’t see home doing it for a few years.
If it’s Parkinson’s as alleged then there’s no real reason to freak out, moreso because the cabinet does a substantial amount of the leg work anyway. Realistically so long as other leaders respect and understand him everything is fine and this is just more media doom fabrication.
The Parkinson’s thing was made up.
Yes, a Parkinson’s team visited the White House medical center, but not for Biden - the New York Post just published that out of all the people who work in the White House, it must have been Biden they were there to see, and the New York Times then republished the story because they are equivalent to the Post now apparently.
I assumed, I’m just saying even if their claim is correct it’s not that huge of a deal.
Yeah, makes sense. Just aiming to correct the record that yes, the claim is not just incorrect but New York Post-level propaganda, as far as I’m aware (which is an informative thing to keep in mind whenever you see someone repeating it).
Who, other than Biden, would a Parkinson’s team go to the White House to see, rather than the affected person going to see them?
ESPECIALLY given what they had to know was suspicious optics of the team going there. What sort of emergency would a random person at the white house have to have for a team to show up there despite the questions it would bring?
There’s only a handful of people who would be at the white house, unfeasible to leave, and has their movements in public tracked at all times. Biden is on that short list.
i wish that was a guarantee; i would vote for biden in that case and i wouldn’t have to hold my nose as tightly to do so.
If we split the votes between third party and democrat again, we’re done for. We’ve already lost this race. Hard stuck democrats won’t be convinced to vote third party. There won’t be enough votes to win. Unfortunately, this is a democrat or fascist dictatorship vote.
Aren’t the cons planning on doing everything they can to keep Biden from being replaced?
No, because Harris does not poll well and leapfrogging her to send Newsom would anger lots of people.
Leapfrogging? This isn’t some schoolyard game of “it’s my turn next”. If there’s a better candidate who cares who it “leapfrogs”.
I don’t think it would anger as many as it would help to have a better candidate
The tradition of succession is still strong in American politics, it’s how Biden got the nom.
Look to Hilary and Bernie for a very similar parallel, its tribal but it’s true
This is an argument for revolution, not for keeping Biden on the ticket.
Hah, you think Americans will revolt? Oh sweet summer child
People wouldn’t be mad about the “leapfrogging”, nobody gives a shit about that. People don’t like Newsom though, I would be shocked if an SF based politician won a presidency.
Even worse, an SF based fiscally conservative corpo-Democrat. This is the same guy who suddenly changed his mind and didn’t pass universal healthcare in California when he supported it beforehand (guess being bankrolled by healthcare companies made it harder to sign), I don’t think anyone would want that. Also he’s just an unlikeable piece of shit, he’s what pops into the average person’s mind when they think “the elite”. His shitty economics seem to have fucked up California quite a bit and he’s barely any better than the average libertarian (but unlike the Libertarian party candidate, at least he doesn’t want to abolish the Department of Education and all government healthcare, but that’s a pretty low bar)
I will commit seppuku before I vote for Newsom. Disclaimer: I am not Californian
I am Californian and yeah he sucks. He bailed out the local gas and electric companies after they burned down half the state.
