Vincent Oriedo, a biotechnology scientist, had just such a question. What lessons have been learned, he asked, from Harris’s defeat in this vital swing county in a crucial battleground state that voted for Joe Biden four years ago, and how are the Democrats applying them?
“They did not answer the question,” he said.
“It tells me that they haven’t learned the lessons and they have their inner state of denial. I’ve been paying careful attention to the influencers within the Democratic party. Their discussions have centred around, ‘If only we messaged better, if only we had a better candidate, if only we did all these superficial things.’ There is really a lack of understanding that they are losing their base, losing constituencies they are taking for granted.”
“We have set ourselves up for generational loss because we keep promoting from within leaders that that do not criticise the moneyed interests. They refuse to take a hard look at what Americans actually believe and meet those needs.”
Speaking of the Democrats setting themselves up for failure, if the Gaza ceasefire holds Trump will take care for it and Michigan will likely be solid red for at least a generation, not unlike Florida after Obama improved relations with Cuba.
Maybe that will happen. But I think it’s far more likely that Trump will end the genocide by letting Netanyahu finish it. And I don’t really see his administration doing anything other than alienating American Muslims, since he’s certainly not going to protect them from his followers. He’ll probably egg them on.
That said, Biden could have at least pretended to care about Gaza, and didn’t, so a lot of Michigan voters are pretty fed up with the Democrats, and maybe they’ll throw their support wholeheartedly behind the Republicans. I don’t see how that will get them anything they want, but they wouldn’t be the first, and they won’t be the last, group of voters who steadfastly vote against their own self interest.
And I don’t really see his administration doing anything other than alienating American Muslims
Unlike last time, Democrats aren’t going to be able to credibly pretend that they have American Muslims’ backs.
by letting Netanyahu finish it
That seems kinda unrealistic, no?
Roughly 50,000 (perhaps upwards of 70k) Palestinians have been killed in a little over a year, and if anything, the rate is slowing. The population of Gaza and the West Bank sums to about 5,000,000. The growth rate in 2022 was conservatively 1.75%. That amounts to 87,500 new people every year.
Even when you factor in Israel targeting hospitals and food to try to hurry the genocide along, it’d still take decades, if ever.
Counting deaths alone in Gaza and the West Bank ignores all the Palestinian refugees that have been forced to leave Palestine altogether; in either case, Israel wants to settle the rest of Palestine to cement their claim to it and control over it.
Ahh good point, it looks to be more of a 6% reduction in population if you include the 100k+ who’ve left.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/1/16/israel-hamas-ceasefire-whats-left-of-gaza-and-its-people
I’m certainly not denying that Israel’s intent is to settle Palestine. Just that they even have the capability to do so within the next 4 years.
Just gonna say that the numbers you’re using are direct casualties. When you include indirect casualties, such as the people who died to famine or disease due to conditions caused by the war you get numbers upward of 200k.
I’m referring to this. Trump surprisingly had a lot with this most recent ceasefire, and even if he didn’t he’d take credit for it. I don’t see him forging good relations with American Muslims, but in the future I think we’ll see the GOP campaigning based on the (real or otherwise) accomplishment of bringing peace to Gaza. And when the alternative is the DNC… Yeah.
I think we’re at or close to the point where people just don’t want another fucking corporate neoliberal in charge, and most of them don’t have enough to lose to justify holding their nose to vote for more of the same. Unless the DNC does something different I expect it’s just going to go to the Republicans for the foreseeable future.
Trump has so many problems. But he can at least claim he’s going to be something different, which Harris and Clinton did not.
Americans do think foreign politics are controlled completely by the American president.
When in reality, the president can only do as he pleases when there’s a genocide to outfit.
To think that trump orchestrated or built that ceasefire is complete bullshit
People want real fucking change. One man stood up against a massive evil health insurance company and regular people from all sides of the political spectrum support him.
Dems could have won if they were willing to do the same and no one would even need to be hurt to do it.
Naturally, there are a host of other problems mentioned in this thread. The trouble is that there is too much free $peech from the ruling class in politics.
They want us to think real change is impossible.
I think for people like me, the biggest fuck you was from Obama. He ran on hope and change. He ran on at least a public option. And he went into the office and literally shut down the ground operation that swept him into his position and then basically spent 8 years appeasing Republicans despite the fact that people wanted transformational change. That’s why they picked him over Clinton. He delivered Romneycare, bank bailouts, and drone wars.
And when people wonder why it’s so hard to get out the vote, I think this is a key reason why. I’m old enough to have gone to Obama’s rallies, knock on doors for his campaign as a volunteer, vote for him and watch with joy as he won.
Hope and change. After the George W Bush presidency and the war on terror, it finally seemed like it was time for the pendulum to swing back.
And then every issue they came to the table with a position already in the center in hopes of appealing to the republicans who would then hold their breath and kick their feet and then it would slide further and further to the right until they were holding up romneycare as a progressive victory while also getting completely destroyed in the court of public opinion for passing romneycare.
I knew a lot of people that were very excited for Obama the candidate and completely disillusioned by Obama the president.
And I await the apologists to come out and tell me how he had to do it this way, they only had a super majority for a few weeks. Sure if the republicans have the slimmest majority they rewrite the tax codes and give away trillions to the wealthiest, and if they are in the minority they still somehow get their policies passed. But when democrats have power, well you see, government takes time. They can’t possibly just have the bill ready and call for a vote, you see, that’s just not how it works.
You can only tell people so many times. Vote blue and we promise this time, this time, we will make it better. I know last time we didn’t, but it was because of the blue dogs, or Joe Lieberman, or Joe Manchin. Sure, we have no plan to get rid of those people or other spoilers and we will doggedly support them in every primary… but somehow this time will be different.
And I await the apologists to come out and tell me how he had to do it this way, they only had a super majority for a few weeks.
They will all be miraculously absent when Republicans change the senate rules to get rid of the filibuster.
And I await the apologists to come out and tell me how he had to do it this way, they only had a super majority for a few weeks. Sure if the republicans have the slimmest majority they rewrite the tax codes and give away trillions to the wealthiest, and if they are in the minority they still somehow get their policies passed. But when democrats have power, well you see, government takes time. They can’t possibly just have the bill ready and call for a vote, you see, that’s just not how it works.
Every single time!
I still find it frustrating to hear this line every single time. Like somehow every single member of congress during that time was hyper focused on the ACA bill, couldn’t have pushed for their own legislation to be pushed forward.
I’ve had plenty of wake up calls, and every time I do, someone calls me weird for the dog whistles becoming fog horns.
I remember watching the debates during the Obama campaign and thinking “this guy is just as pro big business as the republicans”. The only candidate who was talking about the need to limit the political power of corporations/finance was Ron Paul.
Kamala was running on “Isn’t Trump a weirdo?”, but that was working so she stopped.
The DNC does not want to win if it means causing actual change.
They pivoted from “Trump is a weirdo” to “Dick Cheney likes us!” like the absolute morons they are.
SHE HAS A VAGINA. THAT’S ALL IT TOOK. DEMOCRATS DIDN’T MISS THE MARK. SHE JUST HAS A VAGINA AND THE GENERAL PUBLIC WONT PUT ANYONE WITH A VAGINA IN THE WHITEHOUSE.
You’re literally doing exactly what this post complains about. The overwhelming sentiment of Harris replacing Biden was change - her campaign ran on that - yet she had basically all the same stances/policies a Biden, especially where it mattered to the voterbase (I.e. Gaza). She had an opportunity to diverge from Biden’s less popular platform, but chose not to, and it cost her the election. That’s the rub.
As for 2016 - people did turn out for Hilary. She won the popular vote by a significantly higher margin than Harris.
And as for 2020, Biden only won so easily because Trump’s woefully incompetent response to Covid19 was still in recent memory - and even that still resulted in a smaller margin than Obama’s first term.
Fucking sigh.
People stayed home because of Gaza and the economy but yeah it’s definitely because Harris is a woman.
It’s a combination of all of those factors, plus others. People try to point to one thing, but a whole bunch of people didn’t vote for her for a whole bunch of reasons.
Yeah, in 2016 it was so close any singular failing could have been the one that turned a win to a loss, but after this last one it’s multiple.
And they all sort of reinforce themselves. Seeing Democrats abandon one political principle and then seeing them being weak on one that’s close to home will make you less willing to accept it’s just a messaging choice. And all of that on top of the general economic malaise and lack of punishment for bad people in positions of power and something you might have let go becomes the final straw.
They did-fucking-not. They stayed home because she’s a woman. Just like they did in 2016. End of fucking story. The rest is just political writers needing clicks to survive.
Lol Hillary won the popular vote despite a decade of being attacked by the media. Hillary would’ve been president if it were not for the electoral college. Harris didn’t even have a decade long attack by the media, has somewhat of a momentum when Biden dropped out, and the Tim Walz pick also gained momentum, and there were lots of grassroot donations on the day of Biden dropping out. Still managed to perform worse than Hillary, didn’t even win the popular vote.
And angry people in denial who STILL feel a need to parade their concern like it’s a fucking medal.
Gaza holds no water, kushner and Jr were on record for seeking to build condos in gaza once it was “cleared out”
And yet Trump toured Michigan promising (and making good on said promise, surprisingly) an end to the war.
And he just launched a meme coin opening at 25 bln. Apparently rubes live on both sides of the aisle.
Raids start next week.
Edit to think he “made good” is a joke. Some conversation from him had nothing to do with months of diplomatic work from real professionals. Biden is still in office btw and any “deals” would have to go through him.
Some conversation from him had nothing to do with months of diplomatic work from real professionals.
“You don’t see all the work going on behind the scenes” is Democrats’ “You don’t know my totally real girlfriend. She goes to another school.”
How many voters do you think can find Gaza on a map?
But they sure can see that Harris is a woman.
You’ll find many outlets reporting on this all citing the same poll, but here’s one.
Its more like: “I voted Biden last time and grocerry prices didn’t get lower, oh well I might as well stay home this time since voting didn’t change anything 🤷♂️”
yeah funny how the dems can turn out for a joe biden who sucks in 2020 but not for a hillary clinton or a kamala harris who suck in 2016 and 2024. like yes, people sat out for a wide host of reasons, but there’s a very glaring pattern that’s very easy to see
Biden ran on progressive economic policy and a generally satisfactory platform. People had a problem with his age, but he didn’t suck, not in the same way Harris and Hillary did.
BIDEN IS A TALL WHITE MAN. THAT’S WHY HE WON. THAT’S WHAT IT TAKES TO WIN IN THIS IDIOT INFESTED COUNTY.
- MAN
- WHITE
- TALL
NOTHING ELSE MATTERS.
You learned nothing.
Obama was president for eight years.
SEE NUMBERS 1 AND 3 ABOVE.
the lack of criticism for how centrist and shitty joe biden, just like hillary and kamala, is kind of exactly what i’m talking talking about. they all three suck in basically all the exact same ways. of all the candidates to run in 2020 primaries, he was basically the worst one. kamala was actually more progressive than him. but yet, here we are. arguing that he ran left of Kamala’s 2024 bid. and before you bring up palestine, they’ve all been shit on that subject since 2006 at least, so drop it. that’s not why kamala lost at the end of the day. it’s that joe biden was allowed to win as a mediocre white man in 2020, but kamala had to do everything perfect to be viable in the eyes of those 19 million voters who stayed home, especially in the swing states where people absolutely mobilized to get out the vote for an overtly fascistic and racist orange candidate
they all three suck in basically all the exact same ways.
No they didn’t. Biden ran on progressive policy written by Sanders; Harris ran on including Republicans in her cabinet and finishing the border wall.
so drop it.
No I won’t. 29% of people who voted Biden in 2020 and stayed home in 2024 cited it as the top reason they stayed home. It is part of the reason Harris lost because she didn’t promise to do anything different from Biden while Trump did (and seemingly kept his promise for once).
Not really. Even Hillary won the popular vote (only didn’t become president due to the outdated electoral college), Harris just sucks.
I mean, Hillary also had a lot of baggage, decade of being attacked by the media, still won popular vote. The media didn’t really have a decade to trash Harris’ reputation, but she still did worse than Hillary.
Hillary did have the Clinton name. Whether that helped or hurt, we don’t know, but it was a factor
Let’s see:
Democrat voter base is steadily more and more changing from the blue collar worker to the more educated, college/university citizen.
Problem: there are more blue collar workers than university/college educated citizens
Part of the democrat campaign zeitgeist is that if you don’t vote for them, then you are [EXPLETIVE].
Problem: most people don’t like to vote for the party with members that calls them slurs
Democrats think that Kamala lost because she is a woman
Problem: for the average voter, gender doesn’t matter in any of the key areas a president has to manage
For the collectivists, the average male voter is assumed to be privileged, racist, bigoted, homophobic, millionaire, uneducated, emotionally stunted, a rapist, a Nazi, not people, and so on
Problem: assuming this is true for every male voter in the sweeping criticism of the patriarchy has left the male voter disenchanted and being pushed into the only people who are listening to them and their problems of unemployment, lack of financial security, health issues, and so on.
There is much more but yeah you guys tried to PIVOT the entirety of your message from the key 4 years like 2 months before the end of the campaign and you couldn’t even do that correctly.
Winning is detrimental to the party.
At a certain point, they realized that they make more money when they lose. The end goal of both parties isn’t to win, it’s to make the most money for their members. The democrats just happen to have stumbled into a situation where they have a perverse incentive to fuck things up just enough to barely lose so that they can keep their funding up.
Just look at the responses, complete denial. The american people overwhelmingly didn’t want kamala, the democrats thought they could pull another Bernie and we would just do what they wanted. No, it doesn’t work that way, and no they haven’t learned their lesson. They won’t so long as they retain a modicum of power. Democrats and Republicans are the problem.
To the Left, to the LEFT!
Pivot, PIVOT!
So, voters vote even HARDER for moneyed interests by voting for the qons, or by sitting out or voting third party?
That’s some real nine dimensional chess there.
They only have 2 real options, it’s either more of the same or the guy who’s promising to tear down the system. There’s really no nine dimensional chess, it’s pretty clear cut to me.
To think otherwise is, once more, a failure to learn the lesson.
The guy promising to take down the system?
He advertised everything but that including lying, broken promises, and corruption in using the system to his benefit.
That’s what voters chose.
Yes, but it’s different. Do you really not understand how simple the calculus is for people who are not politically and or philosophically engaged?
I do, actually.
Promises from a consistent liar are probably lies. Simple equation, no calculus needed.
“We think you’re doing fine and we’re not stopping the genocide support” from people who aren’t liars will get people to stay home.
After that same guy didn’t tear down the system the first time, rather giving into lobbyist interests far more than any other ‘career politician’ in modern American history, such as in beating the record for inaugural bribe collection he himself set eight years ago, you’d think more people would at least recognize that Trump’s promises are either smoke in the wind or just a means for private interests to enrichen themselves at the expense of the American people.
To know that you’d need to be paying attention. Most people are not paying attention, they only remember they had more money back then.
Listen you can either accept that the vast majority of people are simpletons and try to make this out to be more complicated than it is, or you can understand why Trump won and use that to win next elections. Trump won because he understands that they are simpletons and engages them as such.
AFAICT, this is the story of centre left politics over the past recent years (decades? Since Reagan/thatcher?).
There’s likely a whole story to be told, but I personally suspect modern academia is actually a big but easy to ignore component.
Well, I’m not in denial. This country is full of fucking idiots. The next Democratic presidential candidate should be a celebrity that promises to achieve world peace and full gay space communism. Apparently empty promises and celebrity are what win elections.
I admit I just don’t see a path forward.
Is inflation the reason they’re upset at Democrats? The US had one of the lowest rates of inflation amongst the G7 (especially with food). Corporate greed drove much of the increase. Republicans are intent on removing any possible regulation that protects consumers, Democrats did what they could via the FTC, since they didn’t have enough senate seats to pass any meaningful regulatory laws.
Is wage inequality the reason? Reaganomics is the primary reason for that, Republicans have been blocking every possible improvement for it via control of the senate and the filibuster.
Is it Israel? Certainly I can see that one, but Republicans have been responsible for devastating Iraq and Afghanistan, and will probably walk us into a conflict with Iran.
What messaging can the democrats do that would overcome the unrelenting right wing propaganda machines? What policies can they adopt that they don’t already have? I just don’t see a way to reach voters like the ones in this article.
If liberals could learn they wouldn’t be liberals.
There are actually people in here that say idiotic shit like “until democrats learn that they need to go low to win”.
Stop submitting to brainwashing that has you thinking the democrats are virtuous. It’s bullshit and you are ignorant and naive if you believe that.
“Go low to win”. Then Biden decided to die on the hill of support for genocide.
I think that the Liberal ideology, with a capital L, is what is being revolted and rebelled against at a very fundamental level by a majority of America. But the Democrats can’t see it,
