Silence bootlicker. How can it not be targeted at Ukraine when Ukraine was burdened with much higher grain quotas than they could sustainably meet? It’s absolutely disgusting that you would say it’s Nazi propaganda to call out a policy that led to the deaths of millions of people “Nazi propaganda”. And if you think this is some bias against communism, then you should know my opinion is the same about the Irish potato famine, which was instrumentalised as part of Britain’s genocide of Ireland. Just because the UK didn’t create the potato blight which was necessary for the potato famine doesn’t mean it didn’t capitalise on it to further its own imperialist ends. In the same way, even if the government of the USSR didn’t set out to cause a famine in Ukraine, it certainly did what it could to weaponise it.
Inperialism is as imperialism does, no matter what political ideology it wraps itself up in.
Silence capital slave libshit. It was not targeted at ukraine, ukraine was always food basket of USSR. Its funny how you guys have just 2-3 critique of USSR which you are fed by propaganda, Ive way much coherent and better critique of that experiment.
Now holdomor
It wasn’t a deliberate famine. The famine was caused by crop failure and exacerbated by wealthy ukrainian farmers slaughtering their cattle, not an orchestrated genocide by the Soviets. The notion that the Holodomor was man-made by Stalin is a 30s fiction. The USA picked it up from Randolph Hearst’s newspapers—anti-communist publications, and perpetuated that fabrication to build up the myth that communism was the cause.
Did you know that it wasn’t just Ukraine that suffered a large loss of death? Parts of Russia suffered it, and Kazakhstan had the largest loss of life as a percentage of its total population.
Alexander Dallin of Stanford University writes:
There is no evidence it was intentionally directed against Ukrainians… that would be totally out of keeping with what we know – it makes no sense.
Moshe Lewin of the University of Pennsylvania stated:
This is crap, rubbish… I am an anti-Stalinist, but I don’t see how this [genocide] campaign adds to our knowledge. It’s adding horrors, adding horrors, until it becomes a pathology.
Lynne Viola of the University of Toronto writes:\
I absolutely reject it… Why in god’s name would this paranoid government consciously produce a famine when they were terrified of war [with Germany]?
Mark Tauger, Professor of History at West Virginia University (reviewing work by Stephen Wheatcroft and R.W. Davies) has this to say:
Popular media and most historians for decades have described the great famine that struck most of the USSR in the early 1930s as “man-made,” very often even a “genocide” that Stalin perpetrated intentionally against Ukrainians and sometimes other national groups to destroy them as nations… This perspective, however, is wrong. The famine that took place was not limited to Ukraine or even to rural areas of the USSR, it was not fundamentally or exclusively man-made, and it was far from the intention of Stalin and others in the Soviet leadership to create such as disaster. A small but growing literature relying on new archival documents and a critical approach to other sources has shown the flaws in the “genocide” or “intentionalist” interpretation of the famine and has developed an alternative interpretation.
Also here’s a BBC article stating that the Ukrainian Kulaks burnt their own grain and slaughtered their own cattle - https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/ztqmwxs/revision/1 It would be more appropriate to frame this as, “the government is culpable of insufficiently rapid response” but the historiography on the matter is that the famine was not deliberate, was not a genocide, and (to quote Tauger) “was not fundamentally or exclusively man-made.”
It was a terrible famine caused by two bad weather years, some bad planning and any human foul play was on the side of the kulaks who slaughtered livestock and encouraged their sympathizers to do so as well. You can do your own research on the sources rather than parroting Western propaganda.
Read about it from Doug Tottle in his book Fraud, Famine and Fascism. The Ukrainian Genocide Myth from Hitler to Harvard (Toronto: Progress Books, 1987).
After WW2 the “man-made famine in Ukraine” myth became the credo of the pro-Nazi Ukrainian Nationalist front, many of whose leaders were settled in the US by the CIA after the war, and were funded to carry on their anti-Soviet propaganda. Until the early 1960s these fascist Ukrainian nationalist groups had terrorist cells within the USSR as well. Today this myth is an integral part of the nationalist ideology of the state of Ukraine. Reactionary capitalists and Neo-Nazis have used it to build up a history that legitimizes Ukrainian nationalism. And this myth of the “man-made genocide” is an integral part of the project of historical revisionism to build up the formation post-Soviet Ukraine. Since Ukrainian nationalism has been fascist from the beginning, the only way it can be “legitimized” is by ferocious anti-communism.
Most of the historiography on this is even written by sovietologists and cold warriors who were nevertheless good historians:
John A. Armstrong. Ukrainian Nationalism. NY: Columbia University Press, 1963.
Alexander Motyl. The turn to the right : the ideological origins and development of Ukrainian nationalism, 1919-1929. NY: Columbia U.P. 1980.
The excellent research by Prof. Mark Tauger, of the University of West Virginia, and others, has thoroughly exploded this Nazi-born myth of the “Man-Made Famine.” His research is now available online at his own website:
Barbara Anderson and Brian Silver, “Demographic Analysis and Population Catastrophes in the USSR.” Slavic Review 44, 3 (Autumn, 1985), pp. 517-536. Available through JSTOR.
Robert Conquest, the most famous anti-Soviet phony “scholar” for the past half-century, the same dude who was paid $ 80,000 by Ukrainian Nationalist groups to write Harvest of Despair, the main English language book that spreads this notion. Actually cites bonafide Nazi propaganda as evidence in that book.
There are a couple of good reviews of his book, and of this issue. They are:
“The Hoax of the Man-Made Ukraine Famine of 1932-33.” Six-part series originally published in Challenge-Desafio, the newspaper of the Progressive Labor Party, beginning on February 25, 1987. At http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam1.html and following.
In addition, I recommend Arch Getty’s review of Conquest from the London Review of Books, January 22, 1987, pp. 7-8. And Doug Tottle’s book, which I referenced at the top of this post, also analyses both Conquest’s work and the fraudulent Ukrainian nationalist film “Harvest of Despair" (named after the book).
Even if one assumes the Holodomor was not man-made, it was certainly worsened by government inefficiency and poor decision-making.[1] The government’s intentions may have been benign, but the result was the same as if they had been malicious.
[1]Mentioned in some of the sources you cited and in your post.
Nothing wrong in making unemployment illegal.
Homes were given to everyone, no one would want to be voluntarly homeless, putting in prison is bullshit.
Famine is different from starvation and fighting for bread every day. Capitalism starves 6 million people every year. Way more than during soviet famine. Famines were common in pre soviet russia - only one under soviet russia.
yup. Whats wrong exactly? Do you expect everyone to produce for you so you could eat and sleep? You know despite that people had choice to what kind of work will they do right?
And when they don’t qualify for any available jobs or there simply isn’t any work and thus no jobs anywhere because jobs don’t grow on trees, you give people the job of sitting at a desk for eight hours a day doing nothing while their mental health crumbles away. Jolly good.
In Hungary the law was called KMK short for Közveszélyes Munka Kerülés, English term is “Social Parasitism”, but direct translation is something like “work avoidance damgerous to the public”. All soviet aligned countries had similar laws. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_parasitism_(offense)
Holodomor happened 1932-33, more than 10 years after the establishment of USSR.
Your definition of unemployed differed wildly from the state’s definition. E.g. writers, artists who doesn’t had a day to day job in the classical sense were also considered unemployed if they didn’t agree fully with the state. What if the state said the only job you can get is in a stone mine in Siberia? This was also used frequently for opposition people. They couldn’t get a job in their profession, so they had to choose between a not fitting job and between prison. Is this what you want?
About famines. You compare it to tsarist Russia, and I can’t find any notable one from the 19th century. I wouldn’t compare it to pre-industrial revolution as it was a totally different times. And why don’t you compare it from the list of olympic medals?
And you wrote “No one was starving” then “I literally said one famine”… Please, at least be consistent. You brought up the topic of starvation.
I fucking love when westerners tell me that my own experiences I lived through are fake. Wtf man, I had a relative who couldn’t work as journalists because they took part in the 1956 revolution, and he had to work as swineherd his whole life later. He died some years ago.
The Party told you to ignore the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
That’s just one famine. I wouldn’t count the 1921-22 famine to any system as that’s was because of the civil war, not from the mismanagement.
We all pretty much agree America sucks here, you’re trying to argue the mass murdering mess of the USSR somehow didn’t also suck. Whataboutism won’t help you.
lol. Shit hole country? Everyone had a job Everyone had a home No one was starving
why are you salty about them? Is there any proof of doping?
I suppose the deliberate starvation of millions of Ukrainians was just Western propaganda?
As I said in other comment there was one soviet famine except that no one starved.
Silence bootlicker. How can it not be targeted at Ukraine when Ukraine was burdened with much higher grain quotas than they could sustainably meet? It’s absolutely disgusting that you would say it’s Nazi propaganda to call out a policy that led to the deaths of millions of people “Nazi propaganda”. And if you think this is some bias against communism, then you should know my opinion is the same about the Irish potato famine, which was instrumentalised as part of Britain’s genocide of Ireland. Just because the UK didn’t create the potato blight which was necessary for the potato famine doesn’t mean it didn’t capitalise on it to further its own imperialist ends. In the same way, even if the government of the USSR didn’t set out to cause a famine in Ukraine, it certainly did what it could to weaponise it.
Inperialism is as imperialism does, no matter what political ideology it wraps itself up in.
Silence capital slave libshit. It was not targeted at ukraine, ukraine was always food basket of USSR. Its funny how you guys have just 2-3 critique of USSR which you are fed by propaganda, Ive way much coherent and better critique of that experiment.
Now holdomor
It wasn’t a deliberate famine. The famine was caused by crop failure and exacerbated by wealthy ukrainian farmers slaughtering their cattle, not an orchestrated genocide by the Soviets. The notion that the Holodomor was man-made by Stalin is a 30s fiction. The USA picked it up from Randolph Hearst’s newspapers—anti-communist publications, and perpetuated that fabrication to build up the myth that communism was the cause.
Did you know that it wasn’t just Ukraine that suffered a large loss of death? Parts of Russia suffered it, and Kazakhstan had the largest loss of life as a percentage of its total population.
Alexander Dallin of Stanford University writes:
Moshe Lewin of the University of Pennsylvania stated:
Lynne Viola of the University of Toronto writes:\
Mark Tauger, Professor of History at West Virginia University (reviewing work by Stephen Wheatcroft and R.W. Davies) has this to say:
Also here’s a BBC article stating that the Ukrainian Kulaks burnt their own grain and slaughtered their own cattle - https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/ztqmwxs/revision/1 It would be more appropriate to frame this as, “the government is culpable of insufficiently rapid response” but the historiography on the matter is that the famine was not deliberate, was not a genocide, and (to quote Tauger) “was not fundamentally or exclusively man-made.”
It was a terrible famine caused by two bad weather years, some bad planning and any human foul play was on the side of the kulaks who slaughtered livestock and encouraged their sympathizers to do so as well. You can do your own research on the sources rather than parroting Western propaganda.
Read about it from Doug Tottle in his book Fraud, Famine and Fascism. The Ukrainian Genocide Myth from Hitler to Harvard (Toronto: Progress Books, 1987).
After WW2 the “man-made famine in Ukraine” myth became the credo of the pro-Nazi Ukrainian Nationalist front, many of whose leaders were settled in the US by the CIA after the war, and were funded to carry on their anti-Soviet propaganda. Until the early 1960s these fascist Ukrainian nationalist groups had terrorist cells within the USSR as well. Today this myth is an integral part of the nationalist ideology of the state of Ukraine. Reactionary capitalists and Neo-Nazis have used it to build up a history that legitimizes Ukrainian nationalism. And this myth of the “man-made genocide” is an integral part of the project of historical revisionism to build up the formation post-Soviet Ukraine. Since Ukrainian nationalism has been fascist from the beginning, the only way it can be “legitimized” is by ferocious anti-communism.
Most of the historiography on this is even written by sovietologists and cold warriors who were nevertheless good historians:
John A. Armstrong. Ukrainian Nationalism. NY: Columbia University Press, 1963.
Alexander Motyl. The turn to the right : the ideological origins and development of Ukrainian nationalism, 1919-1929. NY: Columbia U.P. 1980.
The excellent research by Prof. Mark Tauger, of the University of West Virginia, and others, has thoroughly exploded this Nazi-born myth of the “Man-Made Famine.” His research is now available online at his own website:
http://www.as.wvu.edu/history/Faculty/Tauger/ In addition I recommend the following article by two professional demographers:
Barbara Anderson and Brian Silver, “Demographic Analysis and Population Catastrophes in the USSR.” Slavic Review 44, 3 (Autumn, 1985), pp. 517-536. Available through JSTOR.
Robert Conquest, the most famous anti-Soviet phony “scholar” for the past half-century, the same dude who was paid $ 80,000 by Ukrainian Nationalist groups to write Harvest of Despair, the main English language book that spreads this notion. Actually cites bonafide Nazi propaganda as evidence in that book.
There are a couple of good reviews of his book, and of this issue. They are:
Jeff Coplon, “In Search of a Soviet Holocaust,” Village Voice Jan. 12, 1988. At http://chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/vv.html and his “Rewriting History: How Ukrainian Nationalists Imposed Their Doctored History on our High-School Students”. Capital Region magazine (Albany, NY), March 1988. At http://chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/essays/coplonrewriting88.pdf
“The Hoax of the Man-Made Ukraine Famine of 1932-33.” Six-part series originally published in Challenge-Desafio, the newspaper of the Progressive Labor Party, beginning on February 25, 1987. At http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam1.html and following.
In addition, I recommend Arch Getty’s review of Conquest from the London Review of Books, January 22, 1987, pp. 7-8. And Doug Tottle’s book, which I referenced at the top of this post, also analyses both Conquest’s work and the fraudulent Ukrainian nationalist film “Harvest of Despair" (named after the book).
Even if one assumes the Holodomor was not man-made, it was certainly worsened by government inefficiency and poor decision-making.[1] The government’s intentions may have been benign, but the result was the same as if they had been malicious.
[1]Mentioned in some of the sources you cited and in your post.
god damn you killed him 🔥🔥🔥
terrible shame that fedditors can’t read.
Everyone had a job because it was illegal to not have a job. Homeless people were simply put in prison.
The millions of people who died during holodomor would have a different word about starvation.
If it would be that good, people wouldn’t wanted to escape.
Anything’s possible when you make shit up
Nothing wrong in making unemployment illegal. Homes were given to everyone, no one would want to be voluntarly homeless, putting in prison is bullshit. Famine is different from starvation and fighting for bread every day. Capitalism starves 6 million people every year. Way more than during soviet famine. Famines were common in pre soviet russia - only one under soviet russia.
Do you hear yourself?
yup. Whats wrong exactly? Do you expect everyone to produce for you so you could eat and sleep? You know despite that people had choice to what kind of work will they do right?
I imagine it’s the same problem as how some places today are making homelessness illegal without providing the means for everyone to get a home.
Point is soviet did provide homes as homes were for living and not for landlords to make peofit, understand?
How’s that relevant here? We’re talking about jobs, not homes. I’m comparing the Soviet job situation to some present day homelessness situations.
The point is soviet had means of work for everyone.
As long as there were open positions in your profession. If not, you would just be assigned something.
Yup. Ibsee nothing wrong with it
And when they don’t qualify for any available jobs or there simply isn’t any work and thus no jobs anywhere because jobs don’t grow on trees, you give people the job of sitting at a desk for eight hours a day doing nothing while their mental health crumbles away. Jolly good.
Wrong, you reduce the working hours so everyone can have jobs, 8 hours isnt necessary. USSR had the most worker favoring labour laws for a reason.
In Hungary the law was called KMK short for Közveszélyes Munka Kerülés, English term is “Social Parasitism”, but direct translation is something like “work avoidance damgerous to the public”. All soviet aligned countries had similar laws. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_parasitism_(offense)
Holodomor happened 1932-33, more than 10 years after the establishment of USSR.
I literally said one famine under soviet Russia and that was “holodomor”
I am aware of such laws, no one wants to be unemployed.
Your definition of unemployed differed wildly from the state’s definition. E.g. writers, artists who doesn’t had a day to day job in the classical sense were also considered unemployed if they didn’t agree fully with the state. What if the state said the only job you can get is in a stone mine in Siberia? This was also used frequently for opposition people. They couldn’t get a job in their profession, so they had to choose between a not fitting job and between prison. Is this what you want?
About famines. You compare it to tsarist Russia, and I can’t find any notable one from the 19th century. I wouldn’t compare it to pre-industrial revolution as it was a totally different times. And why don’t you compare it from the list of olympic medals?
And you wrote “No one was starving” then “I literally said one famine”… Please, at least be consistent. You brought up the topic of starvation.
No, writers and artists had state guilds in which they worked and were paid by the state for their work. Stop this baseless fear mongering
Id rather work in a mine than to keep slacking and excepting free food.
Whats exactly the problem in this model?
Pre soviet russia famines: 1.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1891–1892 2. Famines mentioned in this article like 1897, early 1900s and 1921-22 famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droughts_and_famines_in_Russia_and_the_Soviet_Union
I said no ine was starving on daily basis. I expect people to understand that
I fucking love when westerners tell me that my own experiences I lived through are fake. Wtf man, I had a relative who couldn’t work as journalists because they took part in the 1956 revolution, and he had to work as swineherd his whole life later. He died some years ago.
That’s just one famine. I wouldn’t count the 1921-22 famine to any system as that’s was because of the civil war, not from the mismanagement.
meanwhile what happens under capitalism if your reporting threatens the system:
https://www.lemkininstitute.com/single-post/how-the-eu-is-using-anti-russia-sanctions-to-criminalise-journalism
I am not a westerner lol.
Multiple famines are listed in 2nd link. Death via starvation often occurred without famine too.
I have one friend whose geandparents say they lived happy lives in USSR and after it dissolved many low level workers lost their jobs or died
“My experience” “My relative” So it wasn’t your experience at all, just a story you heard
You literally said “no one was starving” though
Damn bro I thought ppl here understood english, sry my bad
Please explain English to me in a way that “no one was starving” and “there was one famine” aren’t contradictory
Ok my bad Ive heard about that famine so many times I forgot to write it. I hope ppl get my point tho
Yup.
mentions one olympics no proof that all atheletes ever were doped
several amrikkkan athletes are also banned for doping
We all pretty much agree America sucks here, you’re trying to argue the mass murdering mess of the USSR somehow didn’t also suck. Whataboutism won’t help you.
Your analysis of USSR is it is somehow uniquely evil mass murdering where everyone lived in a shithole while thats not true.