- cross-posted to:
- futurology@futurology.today
- cross-posted to:
- futurology@futurology.today
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Every day it feels like we’re getting closer to battery revolution. It really makes you wonder how different the world will be once we have these incredible batteries actually working at consumer level.
we’re getting closer to battery revolution
If big oil doesn’t buy up the patent and squirrel it away.
They’re coming off a pilot production line and have shipped to vehicle manufacturers to see if they want to incorporate these into upcoming models.
Problem will be the price for the first run of this tech. They’re targeting “ultra premium” vehicles until they can scale and optimize manufacturing.
The market will segment away from the current tech anyway. CATL Sodium-ion with comparatively low densities but also extremely low prices per kWh will likely win the low-end market and the market for stationary solutions. This is just due to the much lower resource costs. The high-end will be up for things like this battery by Samsung (or other comparable pilot products). The current technology will likely be in a weird middle spot.
And those cheaper batteries may not be as compromising as people think. In terms of kwh/kg, the sodium-ion batteries coming on the market now are about where lithium poly batteries were about 4 years ago. It takes a few years before new batteries make their way into EVs, which means EVs being purchased right now have batteries with a similar kwh/kg of the new sodium-ion batteries. Those batteries are around 30% cheaper and don’t have the same level of fire hazards as some lithium chemistries.
So if EVs on the market today have adequate range for your use, you’ll probably be just fine with a future sodium-ion EV.
There won’t be many charging stations able to output that kind of wattage tho
It will still be a dramatic improvement because these packs will be able to hold the max charge that the charger can support for much longer. E.g., a car that can hold 350kW from 0-90 is much better than one that peaks at 350kW for 2 seconds before dropping to 150 or 100kW for 40-90%.
One important thing to remember is the that battery capacity is unlikely to improve anymore, we should mostly improve charging, lifespan, safety, etc.
I doubt that we will ever see batteries that have much more capacity per weight than what we have now.
That’s completely wrong. Lab research continues and we’re not close to the theoretical limits of energy density yet.
I waited 4 years for battery technology to get better before bring an EV last year. The “battery revolution”, with all the news being generated weekly for years, is still not here. I don’t give a fuck about theoretical battery range - give me the actual battery in a car, THEN it’s newsworthy. Now it’s all just theoretical, which we consumers can do fuck all about.
And that’s the thing. As much as we’ve gotten used to it over the past hundred years, progress is absolutely not automatic.
If people don’t buy the current stuff, it reduces the chance of advancement for that tech. Most things will only get better if people are buying the current versions.
We’ve had solar power tech for 50 years. Solar initiatives under Carter were actually pretty good. You know who killed it, or I expect we’d have solar on most roofs today.
I recently visited Switzerland, and the amount of rooftop solar there was insane.
(Solar is of course closely linked to battery tech.)
I totally agree with your statement, but in the 4 years I waited, nothing has actually happened with the batteries on EVs (except for a bit faster charging on already insane charging times).
Well, Toyota has promised 2026 for their battery tech and hasn’t changed that guidance, so I think there’s a decent chance they’ll stick to that timeline. I don’t know if Samsung is their supplier or if they’re competing on the tech, but if it’s the latter, I expect we’ll see something in the next 2-3 years.
I’m still convinced Toyota is just announcing breakthroughs miracles in battery tech Coming Soon™ because they shit the bed so hard on the first round of EVs. Now they’re trying to discourage people from buying EVs now while they play catch-up.
Well, the good news is, nobody is making an actual solid state battery car, so if they don’t deliver, I’m not out anything. The current set of EVs aren’t good enough to replace our family car (we like road trips, and even 300 miles range is too little), so I’m waiting regardless. I’ll be looking for announcements in the next year or two.
Both of our cars are Toyotas though, because they make really good cars. We have a Sienna for our family car and a Prius for my commuter, and I’m probably going to replace that Prius with an EV if I can find a good deal on something with 150 miles range. The Sienna is getting old (nearly 200k miles), but it’s reliable, so I’m holding off until I can either get a good deal on a hybrid/ICE, or reasonable EVs are released. If that’s Toyota, great, but I’m not buying the first gen of anything regardless.
I’ve found the current gen of EVs is perfect for road tripping with my family. The battery range is perfectly sized for the bladder sizes of my kids. It works really well if you’re road tripping at a casual pace. However I know a lot of people that like to “death march” road trip where they won’t stop for 500 miles at a time - so I admit it’s definitely not for everyone.
Yeah, I have kids, and we can usually get about 300 miles before someone needs a bathroom break. So usually I refill gas (<5 min) while the kids go to the bathroom, and we usually pack enough food with us (sandwiches and whatnot) that we only need to go to a restaurant once on the trip.
An EV could work if fast chargers were as plentiful as gas stations, but in many of the areas we go (I live in Utah and travel to WA, MT, ID, and CA frequently), they’re pretty infrequent. So we’d need to plan stops based on charger availability, not on bladder size, which means an extra recharge or two for the trip. It’s getting better, but every time I look at maps, there are maybe one or two chargers in a 50 mile radius, so if it’s full or out of service, we’d be screwed.
Now, if gas stations started offering EV charging, I’d probably be looking at them today. Gas stations are perfect because they often have fast food, bathrooms, and snacks, all of which are essential for road trips.
As another anecdote, my coworker just bought a Model 3, and he frequently says he can’t reasonably visit places within our state because the charging network sucks. That’s a pretty serious concern for us, since we like camping, which means pretty remote trips.
Can you imagine not having the constant traffic noise played into your ears like tinnitus, being able to maybe actually breathe the oxygen nature provides. That’s probably gonna be what it will be like. But still, ev are just a stop gap, more privately owned cars isn’t the solution in my humble opinion, it is a start towards it.
The tire noise EVs make is about the same as an ICE car at about 50 kph (30 mph) so it doesn’t make much difference on busy roads. It does make a huge difference in slow traffic.
It’s not tire noise that bothers me, it’s the folks who seem to think that the rest of us will think they’re cool for being able to hear their engine roaring down the road from a quarter mile away.
They’ll switch to very loud music unfortunately.
I would rather hear loud music than ear-piercing motor noise.
Totally with you, but tire dust is one of the major pollution particles from cars, maybe even the worst AFAIK. That, sadly will not go away but it is still leagues more desireable to have everything on electric than fossil fuel. Can’t have perfect stop good enough.
Yep, tire pollution is even worse with EVs due to their weight. But overall it’s still much better as you said.
It would help if cars went back to a reasonable size and not the absurdly large monstrosities that dominate the market today.
It’s even hard to find an EV sedan. There are like 3 models under $70k. Everyone wants to make SUVs instead.
That’s the real kicker. Gets especially hard if you don’t want a Tesla.
Many of the conservatives who cite heaviness of EVs as a problem didn’t say shit as ICE cars got heavier and they bought F150s to go to Walmart.
Yep, I’m all for it. However, they would be still heavier compared to equivalents ICEs.
There’s no reason to think that will last. The kwh/kg of batteries improves by 5-8% per year, and we’ve been in the higher end of that range the last few years. Meanwhile, EVs are about 30% heavier. It will take a few years of improvement to make up that gap, but there’s every reason to expect this trend to continue.
Also, it takes a few years for new batteries to find their way into existing models. 1.08^4 = 1.36, which means improvements in batteries since 2020 could have made up this gap already.
Yes, sure, batteries are evolving and there are solid state batteries on horizon, though probably very expensive initially. There is also a concept of getting energy wirelessly from road, which could further reduce battery sizes. I’m sure the future is bright.
This really only applies to oversized electric trucks and SUVs, due to their low efficiency and associated need for massive batteries, not EVs in general. Mine weighs the same as a comparable sedan.
Unfortunately EVs are mostly comprised of oversized SUVs but not exclusively.
If you’re concerned about tire pollution, you can switch any vehicle to a harder rubber compound, at the expense of grip and safety.
Perhaps they compare, but assuming small batteries and consequently small range. Which might still be fine for shopping and shorter trips I guess. And I agree that oversized EVs is all the rage these days
Building massive production capacity to replace all the cars just locks us in to having cars though
About noise, above 30km/h electric cars are as noisy as gas powered one.
It’s better but not the panacea either.
It’s 30mph not kph. City streets should be limited to 20mph anyway.
Solution: 30km/h speed limit in cities, which is a good idea anyway for safety reasons.
Yes, it’s better for safety and health reason.
Plus 30km/h is in the speed range of bikes, so it become much more accessible to bike around in the city and more people start to do it.
The traffic noise will stay the same, from tires, honking and some fake engine noise they’ll mandate for pedestrian safety.
Do yourself a favor and spend some time in an area without cars. It’s amazing what it does to your mental health.
Every day it feels like we’re getting closer to battery revolution.
It’s been “every day” for as long as I can remember. Some new world-changing battery tech is right around the corner, but never manages to appear in consumer vehicles…
feels a bit like fusion power
The difference is this is actually shipping to manufacturers.
Solid state batteries are already being produced at scale. It’s happening.
Where are you seeing that?
The first news I’ve heard is Yoshino power selling solid state power banks. here’s a video covering them.
LOOOOLLOLOL Look at this clown
https://odysee.com/updated-solid-state-batteries-are-really#dd37d5928b5844f2f32dad02307e661d1b89f8bb
That guy did not tear it down or do any testing or validation. This guy did and it was not what it was cracked up to be:
…for testing.
Battery tech is constantly having huge breakthroughs. They are just come in small steps.
I mean a smart phone is literally a battery powered computer. It’s absolutely astounding compared to what we had 10/20 years ago.
Only thing I’m upset with is that we get more battery capacity, but not longer battery time. I want to clock my phone down to save power, but that’s not allowed.
Yeah the more power phones have available the more manufacturers use.
It’s why I miss replaceable batteries.
That made me think of the fairly low res picture of the menu screen from Mario Bros on the NES with the caption "this one image takes up more memory than the entirety of the Mario Bros game code.
Good lord…I remember getting a 1GB HDD and thinking “welp, never gonna use that up” then a few years later installing Diablo2 and seeing it was 1.1gb…
It’s absolutely allowed.
It’s not as good as previous versions but I am running stock android and I have wifi power saving and phone (background) power saving modes available. I just checked and the estimate of time until zero percent battery goes from 22 hours to 28 hours with the node that limits backup processes, and that is with 59% on the battery.
There was a power save mode on my old phone that made everything grey screen and stuff that was way better. I think I enabled it for a camping trip once and used like 20% battery in 3 days.
Most phones have some sort of “Ultra power saving” mode that gives a lot of battery life.
I always use the power saving mode, however my experience is that the battery time is almost the same irregardless of battery capacity (comparing arbitrarily över the years)
Battery tech is constantly having huge breakthroughs. They are just come in small steps.
My guy, those are opposite things…
Depends on how you define “constant”. Battery prices have been falling year over year, no thanks to technological improvements.
If we’re referring explicitly to Academia and R&D, then OP is correct. You’re main point is that these huge breakthroughs haven’t affected the market, but OP isn’t arguing that.
You’re both talking past each other.
Depends on how you define “constant”.
No it doesn’t? Because there have been none. There have been steady and iterative advancements.
OP is correct
When was OP involved in this conversation?
There have been steady and iterative advancements.
Steady imo is a synonym for constant, and revolutionary breakthroughs can be subjective if referring to industry or academia.
When was OP involved in this conversation?
Apologies. I sometimes refer to an OP as the Original Poster of a thread in a given post, but perhaps a better use of language would be OC for Original Commentator.
Not really. They have massive breakthroughs that increase capacity and charging hugely.
People just seem to expect some world changing development constantly.
Yes, really…
touché
I don’t know how many ways I can explain that 2 obviously contradictory statements are contradictory.
True, as far as big leaps go there hasn’t mean anything since the introduction of lithium based batteries to the market.
Until now. This is it and they have production working. Safer than lithium. Longer lasting, quicker charging, should perform fine in extreme cold, more energy dense, and solid state.
The next big thing is finally here.
I know you’re correct, since there are now solid state batteries on the market which outperform liquid-electrolyte LiPo batteries, but just stating “we’re at the tipping point” without dropping any link as evidence makes your claim very unconvincing.
That guy on Undecided is a bit of a dunce. He never actually checked or tested in any way that the yoshino psu uses real solid state batteries. He just bought it from Amazon and it’s advertised on Amazon as having them.
But they likely aren’t solid state batteries in that psu he bought. He even admitted as much in a podcast just last week.
Other people have done teardowns on those yoshino batteries and have apparently found that they are not solid state. They still contain a liquid.
Here. I think he talks about it somewhere around 25 minutes in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aciA1dKz5iE
So we’re still in a limbo period with nothing actually on the market.
Correct, but it’s on well enough authority that the batteries exist and are in production and that units are in the hands of EV manufacturers for them to play around with. Consider it like the time period when no one has the next game system yet, but everyone knows that all the game developers have the dev kit for the soon to be released system.
Until now. This is it and they have production working.
I hope you’re right, but I’ll believe it when I see it.
A giant name like samsung and the auto makers they’ve teamed up with like Toyota aren’t going to bullshit about the batteries being in production. There’s no benefit to doing so. It’s not like they’re trying to raise investment capital.
Samsung is not the “bullshitter”. Samsung did not write this article. Samsung didn’t claim that these will be in cars or anywhere else anytime soon.
Yes they have. Not from this article, though. Same for Toyota. They announced a 2027(likely) solid state battery EV months ago.
As for “samsung didn’t claim this”, they put the battery on display at the trade show in Seoul, and it’s been reported by tons of outlets. Samsung has very clearly announced it.
No they haven’t. Samsung didn’t say they have a 600 mile battery. The author did. Which is nonsense for a variety of reasons, which is exactly my point
They announced a 2027(likely) solid state battery EV months ago.
…likely? Based on what?
they put the battery on display
No one is trying to claim the battery doesn’t exist so I’m not sure what your point is.
Battery tech has still come a long way since say 10 years ago, even though the “next gen” stuff hasn’t made it to scaled production. Looks like this is the beginning of scaled production, though.
Looks like this is the beginning of scaled production, though.
Production is a tiny link in the supply chain.
According to the article they’ve sent them to manufacturers for testing and that’s it.
Even if they were able to make them they’d still be impossibly expensive for decades, as the implications of such a technology would be gargantuan.
Nah, see the battery density graph here. Batteries have made great progress already, and it’s accelerating because suddenly there are trillions of dollars on the line for anyone that can make big strides in battery technology.
Nah, see the battery density graph
Yah, I see your battery density graph and the batteries in question would blow a hole in that chart:
Samsung’s oxide solid-state battery technology boasts an energy density of 500 Wh/kg, nearly double the 270 Wh/kg density of mainstream EV batteries.
That’s without even getting into the charging rates, which are impossible because you can’t even deliver power to the car at that rate, even if it could take it.
suddenly there are trillions of dollars on the line for anyone that can make big strides in battery technology.
What makes you think that’s “sudden”?
Yah, I see your battery density graph and the batteries in question would blow a hole in that chart, and several charts above it.
I’m not sure if we are looking at the same chart. The chart goes up to 500 Wh/kg, the same as this new Samsung battery as per the original article. It’s may well be the same battery that gives the chart that value, but notice the years prior it gets higher and higher up to that value.
It might be 10 years away from being the mainstream battery but the battery technology that was 10 years away 9 years ago is almost here.
What makes you think that’s “sudden”?
I was meaning how EVs created a consumer market for huge batteries where prior to that the biggest battery in your house might have been a power tool. But you’re right, there was a premium market for emerging battery tech and it increases along a scale like anything else.
It might be 10 years away from being the mainstream battery
Yes, that was my point, thank you.
There is a
solid statesodium battery factory being built in Japan, I think, and one in America. (Yes, I mixed up my two battery technologies, a common problem in a stagnant field…) But yes, real life isn’t a game, you can’t immediately use new tech as soon as it becomes viable, and factories take time to build. That doesn’t mean that advances haven’t been constantly occurring, just like advances continued to occur with NiMH battery technology a decade after lithium was mainstream. Partly, no doubt, because factories are expensive, they take time to build, and companies like to maximize the profits from their investments.That doesn’t mean that advances haven’t been constantly occurring
No one said they haven’t. Please note the “world changing” part of my comment. I’m not talking about iterative advancements, I’m talking about things like solid-state and sodium batteries. Things we’ve been reading about for decades that are quantum leaps in battery technology.
In the case of the OP, we’re talking about doubling battery density and charging speeds well in excess of what you could actually ever get to the car.
There may not be a revolutionary discovery, but we are nearing a tipping point where battery makes more sense for most disconnected power storage than anything else.
The cell phone I had 30 years ago had a battery pack that was about as big as my current cell phone and was 500 mAh. My current cell phone has a little battery tucked away in it that stores 4000 mAh, recharges about as fast, and can be recharged more before it loses a significant amount of its capacity. It also costs about 1% per mAh of the price of that battery from 30 years ago.
Just because you haven’t bothered to investigate advances in battery technology doesn’t mean significant advances haven’t occurred.
There may not be a revolutionary discovery, but we are nearing a tipping point where battery makes more sense for most disconnected power storage than anything else.
…what else are you using for “disconnected power storage” than batteries?
The cell phone I had 30 years ago had a battery pack that was about as big as my current cell phone and was 500 mAh.
Please tell me what part of my comment led you to believe I was insinuating battery technology had not improved in the last 30 years…
Just because you haven’t bothered to investigate advances in battery technology doesn’t mean significant advances haven’t occurred.
Please read better.
Fossil fuels are currently the largest disconnected power storage by overall power used. You know, the thing cars use when they aren’t EVs. You may have heard of diesel and gasoline generators, or oil-fueled ships.
As per the previous part of my comment that you quoted, my point was that incremental changes can accumulate to the point where at some point revolutionary changes can occur. We increased capacity and longevity by a factor of 10 over 30 years, have a new technology hitting mainstream, and another that could double power density in the next 5 to 10. Yet you seem skeptical that’s possible, in spite of the decades of advances we already have made.
Fossil fuels are currently the largest disconnected power storage by overall power used.
Fossil fuels do not store “power” at all.
incremental changes can accumulate to the point where at some point revolutionary changes can occur. We increased capacity and longevity by a factor of 10 over 30 years
If it takes place over the course of 30 years, it is not “revolutionary”.
Yet you seem skeptical that’s possible, in spite of the decades of advances we already have made.
I am skeptical because of the decades of advances that have been promised time and time again but have not been made…
I am not remotely skeptical of iterative advancements.
Fossil fuels do not store “power” at all.
Now, if you’re quibbling about the term power vs. energy, I can’t really be bothered with it. If you aren’t, what exactly do you think is the reason we use gasoline in vehicles than because it’s a highly portable source of energy?
if you’re quibbling about the term power vs. energy, I can’t really be bothered with it.
Yeah, I’m getting that impression about you.
Can’t we get Nokia to make an EV battery instead?
Amazing, now we just need charger infra to be more ubiquitous
That’s the main thing holding EVs back in general, in my opinion. That, and the price of EVs. Batteries will get better with time, chargers will get faster. But if there aren’t enough fast chargers all over the place like petrol stations, then the adoption of EVs will be too slow for prices to drop significantly until ICE vehicles aren’t supposed to be produced anymore.
Also, I hope the electronics industry really gets their shit together in terms of recycling and sustainability.
Oh please! I’d love to see Big Oil shrivel and die just like our societies and very planet have under their influence.
I mean they absolutely will when civilization collapses due to climate collapse and accompanying weather events, famine, droughts, and plagues.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-39810-w
I take solace in knowing that they can build all the luxury bunkers they want, but they will one day come to realize they are their tombs, protecting them from the world and species they damned, including for any of their muh legacy nepo babies huddled underground with them, for a couple million years.
I’d appreciate if people just like you would stop taking any solace and tolerating this bs. The ONLY reason this shit continues to happen is because too many people do nothing. Then when asked they get defensive and say, “What am I supposed to do?!” followed by “What are you doing?!” Like guys, you’re smart enough to recognize the perils of these industries, read journals and papers, and internalize the evidence, and you can’t fucking do a quick Google search on activism and even lightly contemplate entering yourself into local politics?
Come now.
You say “do something” and follow or with “protest”?
I was part of Occupy, and it was mostly the fellow peasants being hurt from this system laughing us off the street. I made phone calls for Bernie’s primaries.
I still vote the least non-progressive out of harm reduction, and will vote for Harris, as I would have for Biden’s corpse, just as I did voting for his corpse the last cycle, and Clinton before when not many showed up. But I no longer have hope. That’s just so I can look myself in the mirror and say I did the right thing in the face of madness.
Good on you if you have hope, rage against the dying of that light. I’ve seen too much to believe that the nobility of the human spirit will prevail.
I was taught a lesson when I was younger that you cannot compare your trauma to that of another. I also learned that it isn’t rage which defines progress, it is determination. Apathy, a loss of hope, quells the spirit and stunts progress. Those not on the Right are especially individualistic. We cater to the spirit of independence, while also celebrating love and community, though always as individuals to individuals. It’s not “I” or “Myself” that makes the change. The shift happens when we step up together and change sets in when there is a united, achievable goal.
In near every recent movement the Left has been a part of with the exception of Bernie, there has been nothing that was clearly defined and clearly achievable. Just a bunch of angry people loosely pointing fingers. FeelTheBern DID work and imagine how things may have been different not if Bernie had been elected, but if we with our strength of spirit continued down a united path. Bernie’s ENTIRE message was never about getting him elected, it was always about us coming together and being active as one.
I’m sad that so many people seem to have forgotten that.
I hear you about the long arm of history, and I might even agree, but not just our society, our species was put on notice we are risking the habitability of our only shared, sole habitat in the medium term a century ago. Now it’s here, it’s accelerating, we are feeling amuse bouche of our reverse terraforming project, scientists are finding new runaway effects their conservative estimates didn’t account for, and still humanity collectively shrugs because we can’t disrupt our global economy short term even to literally have a future for our species. We, the US, are among the leaders in the world in terms of accelerating that destruction.
I likely would have more of an attitude of not for us, for our children if that weren’t the case. But physics doesn’t care that we are the slow learners and selfish fucks. I hold the shame and guilt in my heart for my son’s likely hellish future that I really can do nothing about short of becoming an ecoterrorist which for the record I’m not planning on becoming.
Time is no longer a luxury humanity possesses. We needed to take drastic, draconian, lifestyle altering changes decades ago, and we still aren’t willing to entertain such things today, with shattered heat and earliest cat 5 hurricane ever records.
Exactly why “we” is important. People are struggling and it’s difficult to consider the world when your own life is falling apart.
Unfortunately I don’t have a true solution to this beyond the need for a real leader to step up. Well…there is another solution, though I’d rather not speak of it for fear of ending up on a list. It’s also not one I support. Still, I feel strongly that we can find our way.
At the very least I’m not just going to roll over.
muh legacy nepo babies
Are they actually saying that? The kids or the parents?
Concrete is effective at sealing shut bunker doors, and air ventilation systems, as is caulk
Yeah, but humans are not very effective at organising humans to act in their best interests in a coordinated and logical manner. I feel that this will be even more of a challenge post-collapse. Some bunkers may get caulked. Most will get left alone.
Too bad the lithium battery industry is no better. Those places are child labor slave mines and the environmental damage is astronomical…
You really sound desperate to reject any possibility that hard work and human ingenuity can solve problems. I assume it’s because you’re scared of feeling you have to actually take life seriously and consider the implications of each choice you make.
I reject the possibility that exploration of workers isn’t going to be a part of this “human ingenuity”. Enjoy your electric cars all you like, but don’t pretend nobody was exploited in the making of it.
You’re probably thinking of cobalt or perhaps hard rock lithium mines. Most lithium is just pumped out of the ground as brines, just like oil.
You’re missing the big picture. Firstly because they’re reducing the cobalt requirements in batteries which will massively help. Also long-term lithium and cobalt are metals, they are found all over the place. Oil and coal are products that require life and as far as we know Earth is the only planet in the solar system to have organics like that.
But we can mine asteroids for materials to build batteries. Long before that we’ll have automation to mine the materials on Earth does not requiring human labor. Long-Term this is an improvement it isn’t a zero-sum gain at all like you’re making out
too bad AI is going to fuck it all up long before then
May as well give up then.
I mean, not so very long-term (like, now) there’s also sodium-ion prussian blue batteries. That’s some damned good tech right there, and it’s at the beginning of its development arc - there’s a lot of room for improvement, and it’s already good.
This is true but coal mining is just as bad and requires orders of magnitude (mineral fuels) more excavation than all of the other minerals combined. If we can stop mining coal by using renewables the total amount of mining will be a fraction of what it currently is. Plus many of the other minerals can be reused where coal just ends up as carbon in the atmosphere.
This is exactly it. Of course battery production is harmful too, but not only is it less harmful than other sources to extract, you also don’t have to burn batteries to generate the power. With fossil fuels, the extraction is massively more harmful and then the use itself creates even more pollution.
Trees are technically a green, renewable fuel (if humanity used them that way). The carbon dioxide released is that which was sequestered during the tree’s life.
But oil is gathering material that accrued over vast amounts of time, and using that, dumping huge volumes of co2 directly onto the air. There’s no cycle happening there - just pure extraction for our extinction.
well damn… learned more about mining in 267 pages than I ever thought possible
Just take a look where most of these rare raw material resources exist and note what attitude these countries have to the environmental cause. Zero, none. Russia, China, Africa https://www.dw.com/en/how-chinas-mines-rule-the-market-of-critical-raw-materials/a-57148375 I bet they won’t mind destroying whole local ecosystem just to get extra bucks Europe needs
They will just take all their oil billions and buy up battery companies at the last moment.
How are they going to convert their assets in that scenario? The value of oil will just go down from here on out, eventually it’ll reach a point where it starts going back up again because it’ll be such a hard to acquire commodity for the few people that want it.
Eventually we’ll get to a point where the only people who use oil are rich people who can afford to run vintage cars and presumably pay some kind of carbon offset tax.
the future is in plastics
And even for vintage cars and stuff, I assume we’ll see better eco friendly and bio fuels being created that could be made in smaller batches without needing to use conventional oil as the fuel. Starting to see more and more of this on aviation already, and even some old warbirds have done recent tests on these fuels and run really well.
Yeah the US Airforce tested all their planes even the stealth bomber on a SAF that can be made from sequestered carbon, they said it passed all tests and that it would be a great way to be fuel independent, they’re especially interested as it seems to look possible to fit carbon capture and processing in a small enough package to fit in an aircraft carrier. Even if manned planes aren’t as useful in future conflicts we’ll likely see drones that use jet fuel replace them.
They can do that with a lot of them, but not all. You can’t really sell an oil platform when nobody is buying oil anymore. The “stranded assets” is a huge motivator for fossil industries to prolong the switch to renewables as long as possible. Problem is the governments being complicit. They could have made clear paths from when on no new fossil investments were allowed to create a proper phase out.
Let’s hope it’s better than most Samsung products
Better in what way?
Well my $1800 phone has push notification ads for mobile games I can’t disable because Samsung flags the Galaxy Store as a system app so you can’t disable notifications. You can see here that the option is greyed out.
They also install shitty games with “security updates” every month or so.
So you want the batteries to not show ads? I don’t understand. Do you have any actual relatable issues between the batteries and other products?
How about the time they had to recall their flagship phones because the batteries were exploding and ended up being banned by the FAA?
So they changed our all the batteries, and re-released the phones, only for them to start blowing up again?
When 2 different manufacturers both have a design catching fire, it’s the design that’s the problem.
The first was a design issue, the second was a manufacturing issue. Both should have been caught by Samsung’s QA.
You can kinda turn them off if you silence it like I did
There’s actually a way to kill them, but it’s super hidden.
You have to go to the phone notification settings, go into advanced settings, select the option to disable notification categories per app, then go back into notification settings, open the app list, open the three-dot menu and select system apps, then find the Galaxy store, then select categories to disable.
Easy, right?
hmm, so… I had the notifications category set to on. by doing this, I could see the different categories, so I think you have to have it on to select the correct categories instead of switching it off like you said.
HOWEVER, check this bullshit out:
I can’t turn important updates off, and there’s one they don’t even let me see. wtf!! I wish there was another company that did folding phones as good as Samsung 😢
Use ADB to disable Store and AppCloud (adware/nagware that should be killed with fire). No, not the notifications, the apps themselves.
It’s ludicrous that my phone costs more than 2 different cars I’ve owned and I have to go through this kind of bullshit so they can make another 15 cents on average per user.
so why would you buy an $1800 phone if you can’t root it and load some FOSS on it?
Because I don’t want to lose my warranty on a phone with a soft plastic foldable screen.
Yeah, denying warranty for rooting is technically illegal, but knowing that doesn’t do anything for me.
I’m so glad that the launcher I use has a “Recently Installed Apps” button at the bottom of the apps list. It makes it so easy to go through and scrub the bullshit they install on my phone.
Nova Launcher and set the first page of the app drawer as empty. Then when it does that, you see them and can uninstall. Samsung is trash, but I also don’t care if I drop my phone in the ocean, cause it isn’t $1400…so a trade-off.
Never seen those before on my Samsung tablet.
It’s been really bad recently on my Fold 3, but didn’t start happening until about a year after I got the phone.
I think they wait for all the reviews and “1 year updates” from the YouTubers to pull this shit.
They honestly can’t make that much off this bullshit on a per-device level. My phone costs more than 2 cars I’ve owned, and I could just buy a Pixel Fold next upgrade, so it wouldn’t take a huge percentage of users jumping ship to mage or more costly than profitable.
If MKBHS, Linus Tech Tips, etc called them out in their reviews of Samsung devices it would stop overnight.
Samsung pays them too much for them to rock the boat.
Dear God yes, why the fuck is my Fold trying to install fucking candy crush and a bunch of other games every time it does a software update?! And recently it has a new system app trying to install games as well, that comes back if dismissed in any other way than opening it to get the offers and then clicking on the never option. And apparently never is like 3-6 months according to Samsung, because it does come back.
I really hope the Pixel Fold 2 is a solid phone, because that is where I plan to migrate to after nothing but Samsung phones since the Note 3, which was has been all downhill since TBH (RIP microSD cards).
It comes with their version of a calendar installed and it wont charge unless you grant it permissions to access your gps log, at which point it will crash.
Seriously, why are they so absolutely shit at software. It boggles the mind.
Their batteries are usually top notch. If you’re hunting around for 18650 cells–which are notoriously bad for fake claims on Amazon and Aliexpress (“80,000mAh!!!” when the best 18650 cells are closer to 3,500mAh)–a genuine Samsung cell is a safe bet.
Samsung was very transparent about their fuck up with the note 7. The article you linked makes it very clear it was a connection issue or a different manufacturer. At this point this is equivalent to the burn banana peels to get high or you eat dozens of spiders while you sleep internet lies.
It’s not a lie, they screwed up twice. I don’t care if it was another manufacturer that screwed up, at the end of the day, Samsung is responsible for QA on anything they sell.
That said, they were very transparent (hence why I linked it). However, I still don’t trust Samsung for other reasons:
- their refrigerators have a horrible repair track record
- Samsung Smart TVs spy on you
- they steal your aftermarket parts
- Samsung is the largest chaebol, so I expect them to not play fair
They do make some high quality stuff, but I generally avoid them because I don’t trust them (I do have a Samsung “dumb” TV, and I may get a Samsung washing machine). I don’t think their batteries will explode again, but they’ll probably do something like make it difficult for independent repair of their batteries. They’re actually better than most in their phones, but that’s a pretty low-value repair vs for cars.
Mostly agree, I hate Samsung in general (sent from Samsung Galaxy S22). Anytime I see someone considering their appliances or TVs I try to turn them to something else. They have made the best batteries for a long time though. I hope a competitor rises to squish them a bit.
Don’t buy a sumsung washer. I only buy used washers and dryers because I’m cheap and handy. Samsung is not an option because a large part of the user market is broken in a way that costs the same as buying new.
I do sort of disagree with your QA comment. Everyone seems to think QA stops once you sell a product, but it doesn’t. They did a full recall to fix their quality mistake. It’d be like if Tesla finally recalled all of the cybertrucks for sucking as much as they do. Massive PR hit to attempt to maintain quality.
Idk, this was after they were banned by the FAA, so I don’t think it was a “PR hit to attempt to maintain quality,” I think it was to stem the damage. The Note 7 was already in the news by that point, and 3 major airlines had already started telling passengers to turn off their Note 7s specifically. The second set of devices failed even when powered off.
Here’s Time’s timeline of events if you want to revisit it. I can understand the first not being caught, but Samsung should have been extra wary of the replacement devices. But no, they only stopped after even more bad news came out.
If Samsung really cared about maintaining quality, they would’ve taken more than a month to test and ship fixed devices. They should’ve done a total recall and relaunch a few months later, once they have thoroughly tested their products.
And thanks for the warning about Samsung washers. I have an LG now, and this is the second time the logic board has had an issue in the 10-ish years I’ve had it (this time it’s a sticking relay), and I’m debating repairing vs replacing it. The part is something like $100, but I’m thinking there’s a chance something else could die given its age. Then again, $100 is totally reasonable if it lasts another 5 years. If you have any recommendations for brands, I’m all ears.
I went with Speed Queen for laundry machines. If I recall they have three models: a 3, 5, and 7, with a warranty of the same number of years (I got the 7). They’ve been mostly solid, but we have had some issues and I like that they are made to be serviced instead of thrown away and replaced. I’ve heard Maytag’s commercial line is similarly made to last.
All I see in the thumbnail is delicious, forbidden makizushi
Hell yeah. Let’s keep going, boys!
Am I the only one who thinks this is complete overkill? 49/52 weeks a year, I never use more than 15% of my battery on any given day. I don’t need 600 miles of range, heck, 400 with a nine minute charge would be incredible. Basically drive 4-5 hours then stop for a bathroom break or bite to eat then keep going.
Am I the only one who thinks this is complete overkill?
You might be the only one that thinks this is overkill.
49/52 weeks a year, I never use more than 15% of my battery on any given day. I don’t need 600 miles of range
Then this doesn’t sound like you fit the use case, which is fine of course, but there are many that do.
- Delivery drivers that may have to go to far places without consistent EV charging
- Winter battery penalty. That 600 miles may be 400ish in extreme cold which many people on the planet live in for at least part of the year.
- Heavy loads vehicles. The 600 mile number is used for the basis of comparison to today’s passenger sedan EVs. When putting these in heavy trucks, that 600 mile number may be cut down to 300 or even 200 miles, which opened up new avenues for EV heavy goods deliveries.
In short. Its not just about you.
Then use the same technology to make a 300 mile battery that’s half the size and weight.
600 miles of range is amazing, plus you have to realize that it doesn’t always keep that 600 mile range. Also most people don’t charge their battery to a 100%, for longevity they only charge up to 80% for the health of the battery
965 km … so aprox 1000km.
So about 1 megameter.
Wow, 1 megameter for a vehicle weighing 2 megagrams. That’s some serious efficiency
There’s a good chance you are mistaken. It was not specified which type of mile they are referencing.
The only sensible mile to use would be the Scandinavian mile (10.000m). = 6000km range.
Another possibility is the nautical mile (1852m). = 1.111,2km range.
And there are plenty of other “miles” to choose from.
Like Miles Davis… (1.69m give or take a trumpet)
For the trumpet to affect his height… Did he wear it as a hat?
No. He leans back, and blazes music like a bonfire into the night sky.
Mm!
I swear I read about how some companies have managed to come up with some break through to charge or increase battery capacity every few months, yet these are never make it to market.
The weight matters too. EVs are notoriously heavy. You have to haul around the batteries whether they are full or not.
“However, due to their high production costs, these batteries’ initial application will be limited to the “super premium” EV segment.”
“initial” could very well be the key word here. Same goes with any new technology, including the relatively outdated Chevy Bolt design (which was pretty expensive at launch and is now a dime a dozen)
Solid state batteries are more energy dense, meaning that if all you want is 300 miles of range on a charge (perfectly fine with it’s faster charging), then you can have less battery for the same range. Now how much lighter I’m not sure, but it’s in the right direction!
The weight matters too. EVs are notoriously heavy.
This is a regular argument against EVs but its a weak argument in the real world application in the USA at least.
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The most popular EV by sales in the USA is the Tesla Model Y with a curb weight of about 4200 lbs.
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The most popular vehicle in the USA is (and has been for quite awhile) the Ford F150 Pickup which a curb weight of 4400lbs.
Yes, many of those F150 trucks are used in commercial or heavy duty applications legitimately, However, many are not. The F150 outsold the Tesla model Y by more than 50%. Why is the argument of curb weight only leveled against EVs, the recent addition to the roads, and not giant pickup trucks and SUVs that regularly weigh much more?
.
Personally I like small, lightweight cars because they’re fun to drive and somewhat efficient. Obviously the f150 doesn’t light my fire in that regard, but the model Y isn’t exactly a nimble little thing either. Between weight and annoying tech (screens and driver assist mostly), I’m honestly not interested in modern cars at all
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Let me know when I can buy it.
If you own an EV factory you can:
initial batches have already been delivered to EV manufacturers for testing.
Unfortunately, I do not
Well, hurry up and pull yourself up by your bootstraps.
In the meantime we can get a portable solid state power station https://yoshinopower.com/
That’s a pretty sexy looking battery
Yeah. I’ve seen too many battery technologies die in a lab. I need to see it to believe it.
Yeah I often drive over 1000 miles in a day, sometimes as much as 1600+ so this is the only way I’d consider electric. Although it sounds like at a high speed supercharger it would be more expensive than regular gasoline. At least there’s progress.
If you average 60 miles per hour, then 1000 miles would take you 16 hours. There is not way you are regularly doing that. It’s not taking into account gassing up, breaks to get food.
This is totally possible. Maybe not for 1600 miles but 1000 for sure. I do this for 500-800 miles regularly. Sometimes 1000+. Speed limit is 70mph on most US highways and the unspoken agreement is you can go 8 or 9 over and not get pulled over. In metropolitan areas you can typically go even faster on the beltway, almost everyone does. You train yourself not to need to piss as often, so you piss while you gas up. You don’t eat until your drive is done.
Do the math with 90 mph, although to be fair, I only average 80 to 85 probably. I only do 1600 with multiple drivers. I live in Ohio but I take people to the mountains out west all of the time. Sometimes I drive to Colorado by myself though without stopping other than gas. Also, I’ve done a thousand miles on a motorcycle in one day. Now that is a feat.
I mean that particular version of it or any solid state tech because https://www.amazon.com/Yoshino-Solid-State-B4000-SST-Generator/dp/B0CPPKFXP3
These aren’t in a lab. They’re being manufactured right now.
There’s a toxic positivity in battery tech news. So many things only end up being practical in a lab, but the news headlines sensationalizes every single one. Its led people to believe that no advancements are coming. But the truth is that batteries improve 5-8% in kwh/kg per year, and that compounds over time to some real gains.
“I came to the technology community and was surprised when they started talking about things that aren’t in production.”
What a piece of shit title.
Care to add some substance to your complaint? I thought it was informative and succinct
It would be way more informative if we got battery cycles instead of years, density instead of “600 miles” and max charging power instead of minutes.
Off topic but I learned a new word, “succinct”, thanks!Battery cycles doesn’t mean much to a layperson, years, or average years, does.
I agree with your comment, but also the title makes sense to me as a non battery person
Actually yeah, I came out unnecessarily harsh
TBF, it fits your username.
This is the real next step, every other battery hasn’t made it to production, but if they’re sending out working EV batteries to EV manufacturers and have production line running then it’s finally real.
And as soon as Korea starts mass producing long range, quick charge solid state batteries, the factories in China are going to start mass-producing them as well.
Regardless of what it means politically, this is fantastic news, I didn’t know they were actually producing them beyond prototype stage into commercial production.
Heellll yeah.
I bet the Europeans and Americans already work on imposing tariffs.
On Korean products?
Exactly. Our government doesn’t hate foreign EVs, they just hate China. That’s really it.
I mean it is just economic warfare. China substitutes their EV producers to undercut competing countries. They respond with tarrifs. That is business as usual since global trade exists.
It really shouldn’t be though. I believe in free trade, and tariffs ain’t it.
Completely free trade works as well as unregulated capitalism in that it’s terrible for the consumers. You’ll always end up with a monopoly.
I don’t think that’s true. There are other mechanisms besides tariffs and direct regulations that can help regulate markets, depending on what you’re looking for. For example:
- carbon taxes - charge companies for the cost of removing the carbon they emit; this would look like a tariff for imported goods, but they can reduce the tax by proving the carbon they emit is lower
- anti-trust - break up companies that break the law
- remove certain corporate protections - jail execs, increase liability (e.g. protect retirement assets and primary house, but not investments), etc
- more consistent and active enforcement of the laws we do have
I’m not saying we should flip the switch overnight to free trade, I’m saying we should be moving that direction. The only case I can see for tariffs is to reverse government subsidies. If we can prove China subsidizes EVs by X%, I’m fine with a matching tariff to level the playing field. However, if they’re merely able to produce them cheaper because labor there is cheaper, a tariff is merely protectionism and therefore illegitimate, and we should instead compete with automation or quality.
The tariffs are to compensate for the Chinese government subsidizing production.
Are they? Or is it protectionism?
I’d like to see some actual numbers here, because 100% tariffs seems to be more than just the subsidies, but also includes labor cost disparity.
Won’t matter much; Chinese EVs are so inexpensively made, especially with subsidies, while exceeding European and American auto safety standards that tariffs for the last five years haven’t stopped them expanding outside of Asia.
In addition, EVs are so much cheaper to produce, run and maintain for auto companies that tariffs aren’t going to make much of a difference stemming the continued EV manufacturing explosion.
Capacity and range will just keep going up, any tariffs have so far been and will be footnotes in EV story rather than any sort of relevant market mechanism
My point is the the EU ans US are shooting themselves in the foot in a big way with these idiotic tariffs. The Chinese will just clean up in all other markets and if they retaliate, the EU will lose their most important export market, which is China.
I think the US is hoping to buy itself some time while their EV manufacturing catches up, but they aren’t being practical about the limited effect of these tariffs and aren’t making the necessary domestic investments so far to compete with the level of manufacture the Chinese are at and the level the Japanese and a few other countries will be at in 5 years.
The market is still going to end up with safe, affordable EVs sooner than anyone thought, so I can’t get too worked up about the US not jumping into the race.
If they don’t want to catch up, then they get left behind.
They let others manufacture their TVs, computers, and toilet paper, it’s not unlikely they’ll let their national auto industry die as well.
Chinese EV sounds terrifying. I am sure the specific cars they sent for safety testing were well made and passed just fine, but I wouldn’t get into their production run vehicles.
Who do you think manufactures basically everything at this point? Even frickin food is being imported from China.
That being said I’d love for American competition, heck I’d just like the Elio I always wanted if it wasn’t for fricking Hummer. And Teslas have been built like garbage for the past couple years now.
It being manufactured in China does not make it a quality issue unless the profit seeking is maxed out. Otherwise it just makes it like everything else being made over there which is it’s own problem.
Nah, these are the exact standards US/euro cars are tested by, tested annually from regular production, not specially chosen cars.
Besides, it isn’t like American or European companies didn’t make production line cars that literally blew up if they rear-ended someone.
So far the manufacturing of exported Chinese EVs is doing very well, and each product is tested upon import anyway to make sure it conforms to the regulations of that country.
Tanking a potential market like this for the Chinese doesn’t make any sense right now, at least outside of their country it makes the most corporate and political sense to do what they’re doing and exceed European and American auto safety standards.
You should be more concerned about privacy invasion from the smart tech rather than the physical safety of the vehicles.
Yeah I was excited by https://www.amazon.com/Yoshino-Solid-State-B4000-SST-Generator/dp/B0CPPKFXP3 and although available a bit niche but it ramping into production where its going to be high volume. Finally a battery tech that has made it to market.
I don’t trust it. Off brand looking name. Has the high price, but then their upcharge for a few cheap looking solar panels is like a ridiculous $1400.
thats fine but I found out about it from a guys youtube where he ordered one and put it to the test. the guys channel has mostly been about his construction of a super efficient house with batteries and solar and such so I trust it exists as a product. not saying to anyone to buy it but was just showing they exist and are being sold. its not a wait and see battery technology anymore.
I have no doubts it exists as a product. I have doubts about its battery. I’d like a big transportable battery backup device, but I wouldn’t want to spend over $1,000 on such a thing if they battery is bad after 10 years. I can buy a gas generator for $500 and it will work fine for over 20 years without an issue. The battery just makes it much more convenient since there’s no worry of running out of gas and it’s silent and runs indoors.
So its like the first thing out from this tech and the point of this tech is longer lasting batteries. Well and lighter. Anyway, again, the point is the tech is here.
The tech is here. I don’t believe that it’s in that psu.
ok. thats fine. im not a shill for that product its only an example. we are agreed the tech is out of the lab and being manufacturered and sold and is no longer a batter vaporware. Its incredible and a rare hopeful spot for nowadays.
Are you talking about Matt Ferrel from Undecided?
Yeah…he doesn’t know a lot about batteries, really. He’s also doubled back after having some battery teardown reports shown to him and now says it doesn’t seem likely yoshino is using a real solid state battery.
So no. It isn’t likely “yoshino” gets to be the first to market with a real solid state battery in their product.
Oh yea, I hadn’t heard of that, good share.
That’s very cool
I get the cost, but it should be an option to upgrade any current EV to this new style battery.
It’s not needed in today’s EVs. Things should be upgradable yes, but it’s not necessary to replace current existing lithium batteries with this and doing so would probably do more harm than good. The ones we have already outlast the vehicle’s lifespan, and go further than a tank of gas.
We don’t even know how to recycle these new types, at least we’ve made some headway with the current gen packs.
I’m thinking less in terms of lifespan and more in terms of range and charging time.
You shouldn’t have to upgrade your entire car to get a 600 mile range and 9 minute charge time if all that’s needed is better battery tech.
Two questions if that’s the reasoning: how often are you driving 600 let alone 300 miles? How often are you out of range of charging, if at all? Charging at fast chargers already only takes 20 minutes, the same amount it takes to pee and get a drink.
Charging at home makes range not matter. It’s not gas, you’re just always charged up. You don’t want to sit at 100% anyway, because again, it’s not gas.
The object is to get people to give up gas cars, you do that by providing a better range and a “refill” time roughly equivalent with sitting at a gas pump.
And, yeah, vast areas of the country do not yet have good access to charging stations:
https://www.axios.com/2024/06/25/charging-deserts-evs-electric-cars
https://www.eenews.net/articles/ev-charging-deserts-are-growing-in-rural-areas-study/
https://www.hbs.edu/bigs/the-state-of-ev-charging-in-america
You’re missing the point: it’s not like gas, and can’t be compared as such. If you have a home charger, you never need to use public charging except when road tripping, because your car charges within 4-6ish hours (my home charger does around ~22mi/hr), or overnight if you have a slower charger. You cannot do the same with gas unless you just top off at the gas pump every day.
I’m not trying to get into charging deserts right now - frankly, most people do not live in them, and thus make up less of the EV market at the moment. We haven’t even come close to meeting your given objective of replacing gas in even populated areas. Anyway, this article is about a 600 mile solid state battery that will only be in luxury $200k+ cars (which most people in very rural counties wouldn’t be able to afford), if at all. Not charging deserts.
Not everyone can have a home charger. People living in apartments and condos won’t have access. Heck, even people who do have their own homes will have to upgrade their electrical panels to allow for charging.
Until everyone can charge at home, it all boils down to how much range a car gets and how fast it recharges, which is why this new battery tech is such a game changer.
Again, the people that can’t have a charger at home will not be able to afford this. It’s not a game changer, it would take higher powered chargers than the ones that currently exist, making your whole “charging desert” issue more problematic (not to mention that you first had an issue with rural charging and are now talking about urban environments where charging access is easy to come by even if not directly in your apartment).
The solution isn’t prohibitively expensive 600 mile range batteries (are you still saying you need that on the daily?), it’s more chargers.
Once again, it seems like you think EVs work and charge/fill up in the same way as ICE vehicles. They don’t, and unless you’ve driven or owned one I’m not sure why you’d be speaking from such an authoritative standpoint.
Not everyone has a house…
I’m living in an apartment and charging at home is not an option. I do have a EV though and when we take a larger trip, I need to plan a bit more to charge up before the trip.
That sucks a bit, else it’s pretty greatI think landlords should, legally, have to allow you to put a wallbox at the space where you park your car. Maybe they should also just have to pay it themselves. It’s stupid that people have to pay so much more and go through such a hassle to charge their car because, I assume, landlords dom’t allow them to put a wallbox at their car’s parking space.
Fair point, yep. But it is still very possible to road trip in most places without 600 miles of range or a home charger, and it only seems to be getting easier. I was mostly referring to those in the aforementioned “charging desert” counties in the US which are majority standalone single-family residences.
Hopefully in the future, it’s a requirement for modern apartments.
There’s some EVs that are integrating the battery into the frame in order to save weight. And it does save weight, but there’s no way to replace the battery.
That’s a super awful idea, so battery EOL = car EOL.
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