Wouldn’t this mean a president has an obligation to kill his political opponents if they’re seen as a threat to the United States, and as an official act, it would be completely legal? Effectively making one man above the law.
Even if it’s not seen as an official act, you can’t charge the president while they’re in the office, and with that power and a loyal justice department, you could eliminate anyone who might try to argue the legality of your actions.
Good luck convincing anyone to bring a case against the guy who keeps making people disappear when they investigate him.
This + project 2025 & a trump presidency is the end of US democracy. I don’t even wanna start thinking about the impacts globally…
Biden should just pass an official law that SCOTUS must be evenly split between major parties.
This couldn’t be illegal to do anymore, as Biden will be immune, as it’ll be an official act.
Biden can’t pass laws, Congress does that.
You are confusing the United States that existed until this decision with the United States that exists after this decision. As long as it’s an official act, the president can now do whatever it wants. If the supremes court objects, the president and threaten or assassinate the justices as long as it’s an official act. The President is now effectively a king. Read Sotomayor’s dissent in this decision. She explicitly states this.
That’s the thing, for the executive branch, passing laws is not an official act. It’s outside that branch of government. That’s what the Legislative branch does.
It would be like Biden overturning a court ruling. That’s the Judicial branch, not your dance.
So in your opinion, did they just reaffirm something like the presumption of innocence but it’s tailored for someone who’s job it is to sometimes order the deaths of people? So he has “The presumption of immunity” when making otherwise illegal orders, until it’s otherwise determined by a court case, or impeachment hearing? Is that what’s going on?
It protects any official action.
So, for example, the notorious drone strikes that Obama ordered which killed a bunch of innocent people.
As commander in chief, that’s an official act, he would have immunity.
Bush and Abu Ghraib torture? Same.
Bear in mind that the drone strikes are less attributed to Trump because he revoked or ignored accountability rules and authorized the CIA and defense department to conduct drone strikes without seeking authorization from the White House.
It’s easy to assume that Trump was ‘better’, but nope. He was much, much worse. He just hid the evidence and delegated the crime to others.
Under Donald Trump, drone strikes far exceed Obama’s numbers – Chicago Sun-Times
I get it. This is how government functions according to the constitution. Please understand however, under this new interpretation there is no effective legal check on the executive doing anything at all. Yes, it’s not official for the president to do that, but there is no enforcement mechanism, and the president now has authority to coerce anyone or any institution. I know it is difficult to grasp the implications of that, but that is in fact what the Supreme Court did today.
That’s the plan right, that’s part of Project 2025, to instantiate Unitary Executive Theory to make everything they do legal regardless of courts and impeachment trials.
The Constitution as we knew it is null and void.
Are you saying it might be a crime for a President to unilaterally invent a new law and make the federal government enforce it? Well, you see…
No just unconstitutional which is what the scotus exists to make judgments about. They just take it upon themselves to judge everything else too…
No, he can just order members of Congress to be executed until they pass the law he wants.
Well that’s true! :)
I would rather he just pack the bench to 50 seats, one for each state, fast track nominations, and force congress to stay in session until a full court is appointed by putting hoteling them in the vicinity and only allowing them movement between hotels and congressional chambers. This would be in his power and immune as official acts after all.
That’s…not how it works. Like where your heart is, but this makes no sense.
That’s not how it worked. Past tense!
We all know it’s not how it works, but that’s precisely what Trump et al will try to do. This is just malicious compliance.
Presidents can’t pass laws any more then you or I can. Even Trump isn’t insane enough to think he can.
Well now you’re just speaking out your ass
Trump could now argue he, as sitting president, was threatened in his functioning by the new president elect, and it was an official act to block the transfer of power as long as the sitting president has concerns about the validity of the votes. (Ofcourse he always has those concerns)
And now with the coming elections he will claim the same and as a bonus he officially and in the open has the republicans refuse to certify a losing vote because that also threatens his position and impedes his functioning.
If the lower courts now claim his acts were not official he will just appeal that back to the Supreme Court, thereby still delaying any closure of the case well after the elections.
Yes.
Biden can now legally shoot Trump on stage during the next debate. Gotcha.
I don’t think having a raspy voice will be the biggest talking point in the aftermath this time.
And if anyone raises a stink and somehow manages to prove that this was illegal anyway, I’m sure it’s the same people who have claimed that he’s senile, ergo not fit to stand trial.
Biden could, but he won’t. We’re just going to get more finger wagging and muttering at him about being a scoundrel and shit.
“The only way to solve this is by voting harder.” They leave out the “for the next 30 years, continuously, until the court is rebalanced through natural causes and decides to undo what is now ‘precedent’”.
Correct. He’s still trying to Chamberlain when it’s long overdue that he goes full Kubiš & Gabčík.
Did they just make it legal for the president to be officially crooked?
Yes
Yup
Citizens United was the first step to make it blatantly legal by being able to hide donations in a way that makes make it easy to give money directly to candidates from any source, foreign and domestic.
Then that “it was a gratuity, not a bribe” ruling last week means anyone can just buy off politicians in the open.
So as of this morning it is legal for a foreign country to bribe the president to have someone assassinated.
Very legal and very cool
Maybe. But Biden still has time for it to not be so cool for Trump.
Welp. The Supreme Clergy that now rules what used to be the US has established King Trump as the leader of the Christian Caliphate that’s coming. Conservatives are gonma love living in the white version of Iran.
Can you believe all the conservative Supreme Court justices eat lunch together in the same room? Like the ideas that must be floating around that relatively unsecured… what were we talking about again?
I see they have chosen violence. It is regrettable.
Arm phasers.
I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.
I’m honestly dumbfounded that there aren’t riots, but then again they knew what they were doing with the timing of this and the Chevron ruling.
Yep, last week on “The Supremos”, corrupt justices legalized bribery in one decision, then declared themselves the ultimate regulators in the next.
I mean, the ruling is just hours old.
Young enough for Trump to try to hit on it!
…ok that was gross. :P
The SCOTUS can lick my fucking SCROTUS.
The key point here is what constitutes an official act. I would say an insurrection is the opposite of official.
Kicking the can down the road to buy him time.
As an official act, dissolve the current supreme court and reverse every terrible decision they made.
Didn’t our founders have something to say along the lines of when the government becomes tyrannical it’s a duty to overthrow it?
https://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/historical/Declaration_of_Independence.htm
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
That sounds easy
message me if you need some help brother
The only sane thing to do, full on assassinate, or kidnap in secret and report youve assassinated, all the justices that ruled in favor of presidential immunity. Nominate a new set of justices, with confirmation under threat of further assassinations, bring the case back before the new supreme court to rule against presidential immunity
Yes. Remove the conservative justices, institute new ones, undo all the bad SCOTUS decisions of the last 4 years, implement standards/ethics/accountability laws for the justices, put greater limits on their powers, and then remove the president’s “king” status. Also put Trump in jail for life. It is the only way to save this country. Today, democracy in the US is completely gone. It’s over.
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Yes. The supreme court just made it legal for the president to destroy the country by doing all that. Do you see the problem?
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No one is going to believe your arguments over the dissenting judges.
It is also very telling you’ve responded to no comments mentioning what the dissenting judges have said.
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The dissent is in bad faith and should be discarded. The president enjoys no authority to assassinate anyone and therefore enjoys no immunity for doing so. The dissent is not serious and should be treated as such.
The president enjoys no authority to assassinate anyone
obama thanks you for not remembering that time he assassinated a 16 year old american citizen.
The dissent is in bad faith and should be discarded.
Based upon what?
The bar for internet rando invalidating legal expert is pretty high BTW.
Justice Sotomayor wrote a dissent that basically says that anything can be an official act (with enough creativity i’m sure) and it’s not hyperbole.
Personally, I don’t care if Trump and conservatives go to jail. It’s not like any of their politics is anything more than imaginary white grievance and 4th Reich. They aren’t a legitimate political party. They’re like one of the few illegitimate political party I can count on my hand and feet.
It doesn’t matter. Democrats. Republicans. Neither would be serving the people anymore they would just be fighting for power.
Can you imagine?
I think democrats, today, do try to govern. Their attempts often feel like they are just going through the motions. It must be hard trying to do your job when you see everything crumbling around you and you have a reality TV show host threatening to tear down everything you’re working on.
If Biden, today, decided he wanted to extra judiciously “save democracy” the democrats would terminate any moral high ground they ever claimed to have. They would see revolt from outside and from within. Their only choice would to be bring everyone to their heel.
We know there is no such thing as a benevolent king. If I had to choose between DNC or GOP dictatorship I’d prob go DNC. Except I’ve watched the DNC pretend their morals are superior. I watch it as they crush us all for the sake of decorum. To the DNC we are just a wall dressing while they enjoy all the privilege power affords them. Given absolute power, they abandon trying to do the right thing and dictate to us how capitalism is the only way.
I think democrats, today, do try and govern.
I don’t.
One of the parties have people like AOC, and Bernie Sanders. Those with you know, history of fighting for people. The other? Can’t name any one.
… Bernie is an independent
Who caucus with the Democratic Party.
Sotomayor’s written dissent explicitly says that this decision makes the US President a king that and can now act with impunity. This is effectively the end of the republic as described by the constitution.
Ok, so biden can officially order the assassination of the right wing supreme court justices and Trump, then appoint replacement judges and lobby congress for a constitutional amendment permanently stripping presidents of their absolute immunity. Since his orders would have occurred while he had immunity, he’d be in the clear, he’d have illustrated the flaw in the ruling, removed a dangerous individual, and prevented future abuses. Win.
He won’t. Too honourable.
He won’t, but honor has nothing to do with it. He’s a democrat and therefore unwilling to wield power he’s been given.
The Democrats’ achilles heel.
There are some democratic politicians that might be interested into taking the offer up, but it isn’t public, nor they won’t reveal it. Can’t name any, but I can imagine at least 1 is out there. On the other side of aisle, we already know Republicans wants to enact the fourth reich and just about all of them wants to execute their political opponents.
Summon Genocide Joe where he’s actually needed.
Yep, it’s an “official act”.
He could just dissolve the supreme court, it would be a little easier. I doubt the (current) military would actually carry out any sort of assassination. The military leadership are selected and it is instilled in them to pledge loyalty to the nation, not the president.
When haven’t presidents been able to order assassinations?
That’s a bingo!
Biden can be the first President since Washington to give back the power to We the People. He needs some official acts that return the power back to We the People. If they’re considered crimes by the right wing fascists, don’t worry. It would take too long to investigate, prosecute, and hold him accountable. His old age is also a super power!
Biden definitely needs to make a move here, but I don’t see that working. There’s a difference between “the POTUS is immune from criminal liability”, and “the POTUS has the power to alter the government as they choose”, at least, there is for a President that isn’t going to enforce their changes with violence, which Biden hasn’t shown any sign of being.
Perhaps there’s a way to swing this new legal freedom in a way that does something like that, I’m not smart enough to figure that out. I do at least know that, if this isn’t addressed A fucking SAP, then the US is in some serious trouble.
Everything’s possible through the magic of drone strikes. “Oh, I can’t do that, can I? Well, I’ll just call up the ol’ reaper team and see what they think. You’re going to miss the impeachment hearing, btw, and so will everyone else if they know what’s good for them”
Again, I already addressed the violence approach. Does nobody read the full comment?
That all sounds very complicated, there is a much simpler way, in an official act of course, to deal with traitors:
Title 18 §2381. Treason
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, …
I already commented on Biden’s willingness to enact violence on his political rivals.
What a power move that could be.
“Currently, any act, no matter how illegal, is available to me without repercussions due to this Supreme Court decision. So I am going to fix that. I would like an amendment to be put forth explicitly stating as much, and also would like to have an amendment put in place to establish ethical rules for the Supreme Court and an enforcement method for it. Keep in mind, currently any action I consider part of my duties, including… removing… legislators who vote against Democracy itself, until I have enough of a majority of whoever is left t9 accomplish the same goal. Before that, though, I would like a voting reform to establish rules across the nation to maximize voter participation and remove gerrymandering and other systems to diminish the voting power of any group.”
This is how the power could be used for good and to restore our democracy. King Joe needs to do this and then give up the power that Chief Justice Roberts and his corrupt cohorts gave him. He needs to move swiftly or even HYPER EXPEDITIOUSLY.
Accountability for these biased, compromised, and corrupt Justices needs to happen now. Special Ops need to deploy and execute ASAP.
This is just depressing.
Democracy in the USA ended today. It will be in the history books about the end of democracy.
for reference this same move of getting immunity from a fixed court was also huge for cementing the Chavez and Putin regimes in Venezuela and Russia.
This is a very important point, yes.
The rule of law ended today. Democracy will end if the christo-fascists win the election.
But by then, that history book will be banned, and only the bible will be left in schools (that will all be private)
Fucking insanity.
Civil immunity makes sense because anyone can sue anyone for anything at anytime, and allowing people to sue the president for official acts would leave him vulnerable to a nonstop barrage of lawsuits. Crime doesn’t work that way. The only way the president should be facing criminal prosecution is if he’s breaking the fucking law. That’s kind of the opposite of what the president is supposed to be doing. You know, faithfully executing the laws and all that. If a presidential action violates the law, it can’t really have the legitimacy that’s being presumed for all official acts here, because by definition it violates his official duties under the constitution.
Now, I would never suggest that a sitting president order the unlawful detention or summary execution of political opponents and/or corrupt justices. But I might suggest that, in the interest of national security, that he order intelligence agencies to troll through communications records, financial records, etc. to search for signs of treason and corruption at the hands of foreign powers. And if that search should happen to find evidence of any kind of illegal activity among his political opponents or on the Court, well…
…Then justice for those criminals should be swift and harsh. There I finished your thought for you :-)
Dear Biden, the path forward is now clear. Do what needs to be done.
God, we’re so fucked. SCOTUS is turning the Presidency into an autocracy, Biden refusing to get out of the way for a capable candidate…that judge sentencing Trump to jail time in the Stormy Daniels case is basically the only thing that can save us from a right-wing theocracy at this point.
Surely Trump just appeals to the SCOTUS and they free him in line with today’s ruling?
He was not President at the time of these acts, but I doubt that would stop them.
Wouldn’t be that simple. The Stormy Daniels case was about things that happened before he became president. Sure reimbursing Cohen might have occurred at least in part while Trump was president, but Cohen was never part of the administration. They were disguising the reimbursement as paying Cohen in his capacity as Trump’s personal lawyer. So there’s pretty much nothing that this ruling does to hamper this case.
That said, I have no doubts that they’d find some way to rule in his favor if an appeal managed to land in front of them. But I think he’d have to go through normal appeals first, he can’t just go straight to SCOTUS.
It’ll be interesting to see how stiffing your lawyer is an official act
You’re right, but I’m confident he’ll get there in the end.
Yeah. The Roberts Court has been nothing if not the Court of Post-Hoc Justification. They’re great at concocting the most batshit crazy of legal theories to reach the outcome they want after shopping for the perfect cases to do so. I’m absolutely positive that if/when he gets an appeal to reach SCOTUS they’ll give him exactly what he wants even if they have to tie themselves in logical pretzels or even directly contradict themselves to do it.
They ruled on a goddamn hypothetical. 6-3.
None of the conservative judges are qualified to do anything except take leaves.
They’ve pulled that one a lot recently, haven’t they? I seem to recall one of the other recent rulings, I think it was against the EPA basically being a hypothetical about a proposed rule they hadn’t even actually passed yet?
SCOTUS can’t do shit for state charges. Doesn’t mean they won’t try.
However, His legal team will argue literally any punishment is too harsh and appeal the NY state charges, which will be granted because he was a president and has money. Then it will be delayed past the election and not matter anyway because this system is not made to resist willful destruction by those entrusted to protect it.
Edit: Turns out they can. The NY prosecution has agreed to postpone charges less than a day after the ruling. Trump’s team asserts that the criminal activities occurred before he was president, but since the evidence was gathered during, he can not be prosecuted. Apparently concealing evidence unrelated to the presidency is an official act…
There’s move afoot by the GOP to get any state charges against the president to be elevated to the Federal court.
Guess who can pardon himself or have federal charges dropped?
That’s not how Federalism works. The President is not a member of any state government, and has no immunity from state crimes. There’s no way to move this case from state court to federal.
Unless you change the laws to say you can! Which was the point of the above comment.
The Constitution can’t be changed that easily. There’s no reason for the State of New York to give up the case, even if it were possible to do. And there’s no way to compel it, considering the issue is NY State law.
They’re already trying it on appeal, though. Sure, they’re applying federal precedent to a state case, but why would Trump’s team let stop them?
They cannot currently cancel state charges, but the GOP is trying to change that. It is one of a raft of measures underway. Some are truely frightening, such as using Red State National Guard troops against non-compliant Blue States. Check out Project 2025 - the Republicans are even trying to hide their planned dictatorship.
Did you read the article? The scope of this ruling is pretty narrow.
Not that narrow. They are saying fomenting an attack on Congress and conspiring to subvert the electoral college are official acts.
Where are you getting that? That question wasn’t put to SCOTUS.
Trump was charged. Trump claimed he had “absolute immunity”, and didn’t have to face charges. Court rules against him in this issue; he appealed. Appellate court ruled against him, sending the case back to the trial court. He appealed to SCOTUS. SCOTUS said he doesn’t have absolute immunity, and that the limit of his immunity is on his “official acts”. SCOTUS then sent the case back to the trial court. The trial court will have to determine whether his actions were “official” or “unofficial”.
BTW, my Lemmy instance isn’t showing replies to your comment, including my own reply, so if it didn’t come across, I’m sorry but I don’t know what else to try.
From the decision:
Whenever the President and Vice President discuss their official re- sponsibilities, they engage in official conduct. Presiding over the Jan- uary 6 certification proceeding at which Members of Congress count the electoral votes is a constitutional and statutory duty of the Vice President. Art. II, §1, cl. 3; Amdt. 12; 3 U. S. C. §15. The indictment’s allegations that Trump attempted to pressure the Vice President to take particular acts in connection with his role at the certification pro- ceeding thus involve official conduct, and Trump is at least presump- tively immune from prosecution for such conduct.
What part of that statement is about attacking Congress or subverting the electoral college?
It is certainly within the president’s and vice president’s responsibilities to determine whether to certify the count. They have to be able to say “no, this should not be certified”.
Saying “no” can still be used as evidence of another crime, it’s just not a crime in and of itself.
Trying to convince the VP to fraudulently say no to the EC count is the crime. The president and the vice president don’t get to pick the next president. The electoral college does. The only legitimate reason the VP could say no to the EC count is if for some reason the count itself were wrong, in which case the VP and Senate should correct it and move on.
That, of course, wasn’t the basis for the discussion. Trump was trying to get his fake electors counted, or to at least have Pence declare that he couldn’t tell which electors were real.
Trying to convince the VP to fraudulently say no to the EC count is the crime
Knowingly making a false statement to the VP would, indeed, be a criminal fraud, but the passage you cited does not contemplate such an act.
Trump was trying to get his fake electors counted
That, too, is not contemplated in the passage you cited.
