I really hope this is the beginning of a massive correction on AI hype.
If anything, this will accelerate the AI hype, as big leaps forward have been made without increased resource usage.
Something is got to give. You can’t spend ~$200 billion annually on capex and get a mere $2-3 billion return on this investment.
I understand that they are searching for a radical breakthrough “that will change everything”, but there is also reasons to be skeptical about this (e.g. documents revealing that Microsoft and OpenAI defined AGI as something that can get them $100 billion in annual revenue as opposed to some specific capabilities).
It’s coming, Pelosi sold her shares like a month ago.
It’s going to crash, if not for the reasons she sold for, as more and more people hear she sold, they’re going to sell because they’ll assume she has insider knowledge due to her office.
Which is why politicians (and spouses) shouldn’t be able to directly invest into individual companies.
Even if they aren’t doing anything wrong, people will follow them and do what they do. Only a truly ignorant person would believe it doesn’t have an effect on other people.
It’s coming, Pelosi sold her shares like a month ago.
Yeah but only cause she was really disappointed with the 5000 series lineup. Can you blame her for wanting real rasterization improvements?
She thought ray tracing was anti-wrinkle treatment
Everyone’s disappointed with the 5000 series…
They’re giving up on improving rasterazation and focusing on “ai cores” because they’re using gpus to pay for the research into AI.
“Real” core count is going down on the 5000 series.
It’s not what gamers want, but they’re counting on people just buying the newest before asking if newer is really better. It’s why they’re already cutting 4000 series production, they just won’t give people the option.
I think everything under 4070 super is already discontinued
xx_Pelosi420_xx doesn’t settle for incremental upgrades
You joke but there’s a lot of grandma/grandpa gamers these days. Remember someone who played PC games back in the 80s would be on their 50s or 60s now. Or even older if they picked up the hobby as an adult in the 80s
Pelosi says AI frames are fake frames.
I just hope it means I can get a high end GPU for less than a grand one day.
Hope and cope
Prices rarely, if ever, go down and there is a push across the board to offload things “to the cloud” for a range of reasons.
That said: If your focus is on gaming, AMD is REAL good these days and, if you can get past their completely nonsensical naming scheme, you can often get a really good GPU using “last year’s” technology for 500-800 USD (discounted to 400-600 or so).
They definitely used to go down, just not since Bitcoin morphed into a speculative mania.
I’m using an Rx6700xt which you can get for about £300 and it works fine.
Edit: try using ollama on your PC. If your CPU is capable, that software should work out the rest.
It’s a reaction to thinking China has better AI, not thinking AI has less value.
Does it still need people spending huge amounts of time to train models?
After doing neural networks, fuzzy logic, etc. in university, I really question the whole usability of what is called “AI” outside niche use cases.
If inputText = "hello" then Respond.text("hello there") ElseIf inputText (...) ```Ah, see, the mistake you’re making is actually understanding the topic at hand.
😂
From what I understand, it’s more that it takes a lot less money to train your own llms with the same powers with this one than to pay license to one of the expensive ones. Somebody correct me if I’m wrong
Exactly. Galaxy brains on Wall Street realizing that nvidia’s monopoly pricing power is coming to an end. This was inevitable - China has 4x as many workers as the US, trained in the best labs and best universities in the world, interns at the best companies, then, because of racism, sent back to China. Blocking sales of nvidia chips to China drives them to develop their own hardware, rather than getting them hooked on Western hardware. China’s AI may not be as efficient or as good as the West right now, but it will be cheaper, and it will get better.
It’s a reaction to thinking China has better AI
I don’t think this is the primary reason behind Nvidia’s drop. Because as long as they got a massive technological lead it doesn’t matter as much to them who has the best model, as long as these companies use their GPUs to train them.
The real change is that the compute resources (which is Nvidia’s product) needed to create a great model suddenly fell of a cliff. Whereas until now the name of the game was that more is better and scale is everything.
China vs the West (or upstart vs big players) matters to those who are investing in creating those models. So for example Meta, who presumably spends a ton of money on high paying engineers and data centers, and somehow got upstaged by someone else with a fraction of their resources.
I really don’t believe the technological lead is massive.
Looking at the market cap of Nvidia vs their competitors the market belives it is, considering they just lost more than AMD/Intel and the likes are worth combined and still are valued at $2.9 billion.
And with technology i mean both the performance of their hardware and the software stack they’ve created, which is a big part of their dominance.
Yeah. I don’t believe market value is a great indicator in this case. In general, I would say that capital markets are rational at a macro level, but not micro. This is all speculation/gambling.
My guess is that AMD and Intel are at most 1 year behind Nvidia when it comes to tech stack. “China”, maybe 2 years, probably less.
However, if you can make chips with 80% performance at 10% price, its a win. People can continue to tell themselves that big tech always will buy the latest and greatest whatever the cost. It does not make it true. I mean, it hasn’t been true for a really long time. Google, Meta and Amazon already make their own chips. That’s probably true for DeepSeek as well.
Yeah. I don’t believe market value is a great indicator in this case. In general, I would say that capital markets are rational at a macro level, but not micro. This is all speculation/gambling.
I have to concede that point to some degree, since i guess i hold similar views with Tesla’s value vs the rest of the automotive Industry. But i still think that the basic hirarchy holds true with nvidia being significantly ahead of the pack.
My guess is that AMD and Intel are at most 1 year behind Nvidia when it comes to tech stack. “China”, maybe 2 years, probably less.
Imo you are too optimistic with those estimations, particularly with Intel and China, although i am not an expert in the field.
As i see it AMD seems to have a quite decent product with their instinct cards in the server market on the hardware side, but they wish they’d have something even close to CUDA and its mindshare. Which would take years to replicate. Intel wish they were only a year behind Nvidia. And i’d like to comment on China, but tbh i have little to no knowledge of their state in GPU development. If they are “2 years, probably less” behind as you say, then they should have something like the rtx 4090, which was released end of 2022. But do they have something that even rivals the 2000 or 3000 series cards?
However, if you can make chips with 80% performance at 10% price, its a win. People can continue to tell themselves that big tech always will buy the latest and greatest whatever the cost. It does not make it true.
But the issue is they all make their chips at the same manufacturer, TSMC, even Intel in the case of their GPUs. So they can’t really differentiate much on manufacturing costs and are also competing on the same limited supply. So no one can offer 80% of performance at 10% price, or even close to it. Additionally everything around the GPU (datacenters, rack space, power useage during operation etc.) also costs, so it is only part of the overall package cost and you also want to optimize for your limited space. As i understand it datacenter building and power delivery for them is actually another limiting factor right now for the hyperscalers.
Google, Meta and Amazon already make their own chips. That’s probably true for DeepSeek as well.
Google yes with their TPUs, but the others all use Nvidia or AMD chips to train. Amazon has their Graviton CPUs, which are quite competitive, but i don’t think they have anything on the GPU side. DeepSeek is way to small and new for custom chips, they evolved out of a hedge fund and just use nvidia GPUs as more or less everyone else.
Thanks for high effort reply.
The Chinese companies probably use SIMC over TSMC from now on. They were able to do low volume 7 nm last year. Also, Nvidia and “China” are not on the same spot on the tech s-curve. It will be much cheaper for China (and Intel/AMD) to catch up, than it will be for Nvidia to maintain the lead. Technological leaps and reverse engineering vs dimishing returns.
Also, expect that the Chinese government throws insane amounts of capital at this sector right now. So unless Stargate becomes a thing (though I believe the Chinese invest much much more), there will not be fair competition (as if that has ever been a thing anywhere anytime). China also have many more tools, like optional command economy. The US has nothing but printing money and manipulating oligarchs on a broken market.
I’m not sure about 80/10 exactly of course, but it is in that order of magnitude, if you’re willing to not run newest fancy stuff. I believe the MI300X goes for approx 1/2 of the H100 nowadays and is MUCH better on paper. We don’t know the real performance because of NDA (I believe). It used to be 1/4. If you look at VRAM per $, the ratio is about 1/10 for the 1/4 case. Of course, the price gap will shrink at the same rate as ROCm matures and customers feel its safe to use AMD hardware for training.
So, my bet is max 2 years for “China”. At least when it comes to high-end performance per dollar. Max 1 year for AMD and Intel (if Intel survive).
…in a cave with Chinese knockoffs!
It’s about cheap Chinese AI
I wouldn’t be surprised if China spent more on AI development than the west did, sure here we spent tens of billions while China only invested a few million but that few million was actually spent on the development while out of the tens of billions all but 5$ was spent on bonuses and yachts.
Or from the sounds of it, doing things more efficiently.
Fewer cycles required, less hardware required.Maybe this was an inevitability, if you cut off access to the fast hardware, you create a natural advantage for more efficient systems.
That’s generally how tech goes though. You throw hardware at the problem until it works, and then you optimize it to run on laptops and eventually phones. Usually hardware improvements and software optimizations meet somewhere in the middle.
Look at photo and video editing, you used to need a workstation for that, and now you can get most of it on your phone. Surely AI is destined to follow the same path, with local models getting more and more robust until eventually the beefy cloud services are no longer required.
The problem for American tech companies is that they didn’t even try to move to stage 2.
OpenAI is hemorrhaging money even on their most expensive subscription and their entire business plan was to hemorrhage money even faster to the point they would use entire power stations to power their data centers. Their plan makes about as much sense as digging your self out of a hole by trying to dig to the other side of the globe.
Hey, my friends and I would’ve made it to China if recess was a bit longer.
Seriously though, the goal for something like OpenAI shouldn’t be to sell products to end customers, but to license models to companies that sell “solutions.” I see these direct to consumer devices similarly to how GPU manufacturers see reference cards or how Valve sees the Steam Deck: they’re a proof of concept for others to follow.
OpenAI should be looking to be more like ARM and less like Apple. If they do that, they might just grow into their valuation.
China really has nothing to do with it, it could have been anyone. It’s a reaction to realizing that GPT4-equivalent AI models are dramatically cheaper to train than previously thought.
It being China is a noteable detail because it really drives the nail in the coffin for NVIDIA, since China has been fenced off from having access to NVIDIA’s most expensive AI GPUs that were thought to be required to pull this off.
It also makes the USA gov look extremely foolish to have made major foreign policy and relationship sacrifices in order to try to delay China by a few years, when it’s January and China has already caught up, those sacrifices did not pay off, in fact they backfired and have benefited China and will allow them to accelerate while hurting USA tech/AI companies
Oh US has been doing this kind of thing for decades! This isn’t new.
Finally a proper good open source model as all tech should be
Nice. Happy news today
I think this prompted investors to ask “where’s the ROI?”.
Current AI investment hype isn’t based on anything tangible. At least the amount of investment isn’t, it is absurd to think that trillion dollars that was put in the space already, even before that Softbanks deal is going to be returned. The models still hallucinate as it is inherent to the architecture, we are nowhere near replacing the workers but we got chatbots that “when they work sometimes, then they are kind of good?” and mediocre off-putting pictures. Is there any value? Sure, it’s not NFTs. But the correction might be brutal.
Interestingly enough, DeepSeek’s model is released just before Q4 earning’s call season, so we will see if it has a compounding effect with another statement from big players that they burned massive amount of compute and USD only to get milquetoast improvements and get owned by a small Chinese startup that allegedly can do all that for 5 mil.
I have a dirty suspicion that the “where’s the ROI?” talking point is actually a calculated and collaborated strategy by big wall street banks to panic retail investors to sell so they can gobble up shares at a discount - trump is going to be pumping (at minimum) hundreds of BILLIONS into these companies in the near future.
Call me a conspiracy guy, but I’ve seen this playbook many many times
I mean, I’m working on that tech and the evaluation boggles my mind. This is nowhere near worth what is put into it. It rides on empty promises that may or may not materialize (I can’t say with 100% certainty that a breakthrough happen), but current models are massively overvalued. I’ve seen that happen with ConvNets (Hinton saying we won’t need radiologists in five years in…2016, self-driving cars promised every two years, yadda yadda) but nothing to that scale.
Right - the entire stock market doesn’t make sense, doesn’t seem to stop Tesla or any of the other massively overvalued stocks. Btw stocks have been massively overvalued for over a decade, but that’s a different topic
You fogot NSFW content, many people are making money using it. There is also AI advertising using fake models, very lucrative business.
I’m not saying that it doesn’t have any uses but the costs outpace the investments done by a mile. Current LLM and vLLMs help with efficiency to a degree but this is not sustainable and the correction is overdue.
I was making a joke, I agree with you it is over hyped. It basically just takes the training data mixes it up and gives you a result. It is not the so called life changing thing that they are advertising. It is good for writing email though.
Ah, sorry, didn’t catch it ^^"
hype isn’t based on anything tangible
So just like crypto
EDIT: The crypto bros out in full force… and right on cue proudly proclaiming they don’t understand the difference between the value of blockchain technology (which so far has not had a ton of real world value outside of mostly impractical database applications, other than furthering climate change and buying drugs) vs the SPECULATIVE value of coins since coins have no real value factors to back up their SPECULATIVE value. Stocks often have real value that back up their value, like company profits or products. Stop drinking kool aid to the point of literal zero critical thinking, jfc.
I disagree - before Bitcoin there was no venmo, cashapp, etc. It took weeks to move big money around. I’m not saying shit like NFT’s ever made sense, and meme coins are fucking stupid - unfortunately the crypto world has been taken over by scammers - but don’t shit on the technology
Wtf? Venmo / cashapp are descendent from PayPal which was released ages before any major crypto.
Since before bitcoin we’ve had Faster Payments in UK. I can transfer money directly to anyone else’s bank account and it’s effectively instant. It’s also free. Venmo and cashapp don’t serve a purpose here.
Same in NL most (all?) banks here have an app that lets you transfer money near instantly, create payment requests, execute payments for online orders by scanning a code, etc. It’s great I think.
Forget bitcoin, Monero in my opinion is how crypto was supposed to be. Monero is untracable compared to bitcoin.
Helpfully, because bitcoin gets all the traderbro attention, monero has actually ended up being (relatively) stable because it has more of a purpose.
That is not the only reason it is stable, because all transactions are private, it doesn’t affect the price unlike bitcoin.
It took weeks to move big money around.
Lol this is just either a statement out of ignorance or a complete lie. Wire transfers didn’t take weeks. Checks didn’t take weeks to clear, and most people aren’t moving “big money” via fucking cash app either.
“Big money” isn’t paying half for an Uber unless you’re like 16 years old.
It’s not a statement out of ignorance and it’s not a lie. Most people don’t try to move huge money around so I’ll illustrate what I had to go through - I had a huge sum of money I had in an online investing company. I had a very time critical situation I needed the money for, so I cashed out my investments - the company only cashed out via check sent via registered mail (maybe they did transfers for smaller amounts, but for the sum I had it was check only). It took almost two weeks for me to get that check. When I deposited that check with my bank, the bank had a mandatory 5-7 business day wait to clear (once again, smaller checks they deposit immediately and then do the clearing process - BIG checks they don’t do that, so I had to wait another week). Once cleared, I had to move the money to another bank, and guess what - I couldn’t take that much cash out, daily transfers are capped at like $1500 or whatever they were, so I had to get a check from the bank. The other bank made me wait another 5-7 business day as well, because the check was just too damn big.
4 weeks it took me to move huge money around, and of course I missed the time critical thing I really needed the money for.
I’m just a random person, not a business, no business accounts, etc. The system just isn’t designed for small folk to move big money
It doesn’t take weeks to do a wire transfer. You had some one off weirdo situation and you’re pretending like it’s universally applicable. It took me longer to cash out 5k of doge a couple of years ago than it takes me to do “big money” transfers.
In europe i can send any amount (like up to 100k ) in just a few days since 20 years, to anyone with a bank account in europe, from my computer or phone.
Also, since 2025 every bank allows me to send istant money to any other bank account. For free.
Because they have to compete with crypto.
Absolutely my point
For the istant money from 2025 I Agree, but the bank transfer part is like that since 20 years
So not any amount then. My point stands
True, never had a need in my life to move such an amount tho
It depends on the bank and the amount you are trying to move.There are banks that might take a week (five business days) or so though very rare and there are banks that might do it instantly. I once used a bank in the US to move money and they sent a physical check and this was domestic not international.
Edit: I thought he meant a week not weeks. Normally a max of five working days.
Wire transfers are how you handle actual big money transfers and it doesn’t take weeks.
International transfers do take time, domestic is instant. International transfer typically take 1-5 days.
1-5 days isn’t “weeks”.
Big money is being held because of anti-money laundering, not because of technology.
Money is held so that interest can be earned on the float.
I am not taking about money being held, I talking about regulations and horrible banks not technology. Yes, the current technology allows you instant transfer, but it still depends on the bank. For example some banks allow free international transfers while others require a small fee, some banks you can do the transfer online while others you have to go to the branch in person. You don’t have to go through a bank with crypto, sometimes it is faster and it is definitely more private.
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I disagree.
Like it or hate it, crypto is here to stay.
And it’s actually one of the few technologies that, at least with some of the coins, empowers normal people.
It does empower normal people, unfortunately regulations make it harder to use. Try buying Monero, it is very hard to buy.
They have made it harder, but it’s not really hard.
Just buy any regulated crypto and convert. Cake Wallet makes it easy, but there are many other ways.
I myself hold Bitcoin and Monero.
Try buying Monero, it is very hard to buy.
- Acquire BTC (there are even ATMs for this in many countries)
- Trade for XMR using one of the many non-KYC services like WizardSwap or exch
I haven’t looked into whether that’s illegal in some jurisdictions but it’s really really easy, once you know that’s an option.
Or you could even just trade directly with anyone who owns XMR. Obviously easier for some people than others but it’s a real option.
Both of these methods don’t even require personal details like ID/name/phone number.
I think that the technology itself has been widely adopted and used. There are many examples in medicine, military, entertainment. But OpenAI and other hyperscalers are a bad business that burns through a loooot of cash. Same with Meta AI program. And while this has been a norm with tech darlings that they usually don’t break even for a long time, what’s unprecedented is the rate of loss and further calls for even more money even though there isn’t any clear path from what we have to AGI. All hangs on Altman and other biz-dev vague promises, threats and a “vibe” that they create.
Bizarre story. China building better LLMs and LLMs being cheaper to train does not mean that nVidia will sell less GPUs when people like Elon Musk and Donald Trump can’t shut up about how important “AI” is.
I’m all for the collapse of the AI bubble, though. It’s cool and all that all the bankers know IT terms now, but the massive influx of money towards LLMs and the datacenters that run them has not been healthy to the industry or the broader economy.
US economy has been running on bubbles for decades, and using bubbles to fuel innovation and growth. It has survived telecom bubble, housing bubble, bubble in the oil sector for multiple times (how do you think fracking came to be?) etc. This is just the start of the AI bubble because its innovations have yet to have a broad-based impact on the economy. Once AI becomes commonplace in aiding in everything we do, that’s when valuations will look “normal”.
It literally defeats NVIDIA’s entire business model of “I shit golden eggs and I’m the only one that does and I can charge any price I want for them because you need my golden eggs”
Turns out no one actually even needs a golden egg anyway.
And… same goes for OpenAI, who were already losing money on every subscription. Now they’ve lost the ability to charge a premium for their service (anyone can train a GPT4 equivalent model cheaply, or use DeepSeek’s existing open models) and subscription prices will need to come down, so they’ll be losing money even faster
Nvidia cards were the only GPUs used to train DeepSeek v3 and R1. So, that narrative still superficially holds. Other stocks like TSMC, ASML, and AMD are also down in pre-market.
Yes, but old and “cheap” ones that were not part of the sanctions.
Ah, fair. I guess it makes sense that Wall Street is questioning the need for these expensive blackwell gpus when the hopper gpus are already so good?
It’s more that the newer models are going to need less compute to train and run them.
Right. There’s indications of 10x to 100x less compute power needed to train the models to an equivalent level. Not a small thing at all.
Not small but… smaller than you would expect.
Most companies aren’t, and shouldn’t be, training their own models. Especially with stuff like RAG where you can use the highly trained model with your proprietary offline data with only a minimal performance hit.
What matters is inference and accuracy/validity. Inference being ridiculously cheap (the reason why AI/ML got so popular) and the latter being a whole different can of worms that industry and researchers don’t want you to think about (in part because “correct” might still be blatant lies because it is based on human data which is often blatant lies but…).
And for the companies that ARE going to train their own models? They make enough bank that ordering the latest Box from Jensen is a drop in the bucket.
That said, this DOES open the door back up for tiered training and the like where someone might use a cheaper commodity GPU to enhance an off the shelf model with local data or preferences. But it is unclear how much industry cares about that.
Great, a stock sale.
Good. Let’s keep this ball rolling.
My understanding is that DeepSeek still used Nvidia just older models and way more efficiently, which was remarkable. I hope to tinker with the opensource stuff at least with a little Twitch chat bot for my streams I was already planning to do with OpenAI. Will be even more remarkable if I can run this locally.
However this is embarassing to the western companies working on AI and especially with the $500B announcement of Stargate as it proves we don’t need as high end of an infrastructure to achieve the same results.
500b of trust me Bros… To shake down US taxpayer for subsidies
Read between the lines folks
My understanding is that DeepSeek still used Nvidia just older models
That’s the funniest part here, the sell off makes no sense. So what if some companies are better at utilizing AI than others, it all runs in the same hardware. Why sell stock in the hardware company? (Besides the separate issue of it being totally overvalued at the moment)
This would be kind of like if a study showed that American pilots were more skilled than European pilots, so investors sold stock in airbus… Either way, the pilots still need planes to fly…
Yes, but if they already have lots of planes, they don’t need to keep buying more planes. Especially if their current planes can now run for longer.
AI is not going away but it will require less computing power and less capital investment. Not entirely unexpected as a trend, but this was a rapid jump that will catch some off guard. So capital will be reallocated.
Right, but in that metaphor, the study changes nothing, that was my point.
Ok, we’ll let’s keep the plane analogy. If they could run on 50% less fuel, would you invest in airline fuel companies, thinking they will be having bumper sales figures?
Perhaps the stocks were massively overvalued and any negative news was going to start this sell off regardless of its actual impact?
That is my theory anyway.
Yeah, I think that’s a pretty solid theory. Makes more sense when looked at that way.
It’s really not. This is the ai equivalent of the vc repurposing usa bombs that didn’t explode when dropped.
Their model is the differentiator here but they had to figure out something more efficient in order to overcome the hardware shortcomings.
The us companies will soon outpace this by duping the model and running it on faster hw
Throw more hardware and power at it. Build more power plants so we can use AI.
Are there any guides to running it locally?
I’m using Ollama to run my LLM’s. Going to see about using it for my twitch chat bot too
Was watching bbc news interview some American guy about this and wow they were really pushing that it’s no big deal and deepseek is way behind and a bit of a joke. Made claims they weren’t under cyber attack they just couldn’t handle having traffic etc.
Kinda making me root for China honestly.
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I’m so happy this happened. This is really a power move from China. The US was really riding the whole AI bubble. By “just” releasing a powerful open-source AI model they’ve fucked the not so open US AI companies. I’m not sure if this was planned from China or whether this is was really just a small company doing this because they wanted to, but either way this really damages the western economy. And its given western consumers a free alternative. A few million dollars invested (if we are to believe the cost figures) for a major disruption.
Socialism/Communism will always outcompete the capitalists. And they know it, which is why the US invades, topples, or sanctions every country that moves towards worker controlled countries.
We need to open source the whole government. Decentralized communism.
Absolutely. More direct democracy. The whole point of representative democracy is issues of time and distance. Now that we can communicate fast and across the globe, average citizens should play a much larger & more active role in directing the government.
How do you solve the problem that half the country can’t even be bothered to participate once every four years?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m with you 100%, but how would we get people to engage with such a system?
I think you’re victim blaming. I can’t blame half the country for not wanting to participate in a symbolic gesture that will have no impact on the end result in this corrupted system.
https://pnhp.org/news/gilens-and-page-average-citizens-have-little-impact-on-public-policy/
Imagine you had a lemmy instance that every post was a proposal for regulation in your community/region. Anyone can make a post, some will gain traction and support, some will be worthless and fall off quickly. If the proposal gains enough support it then goes to a vote post where people get to make an official vote. Could be to charge $40 for a speeding ticket instead of $50, could be a trade agreement with another region.
I think this method would give people equity in the system. Maybe it could also be scored on a curve depending on how much it effects you as an individual. Maybe having advanced education on a topic means your say has more weight to it than someone without.
I was thinking of ways to move towards this and so far my best idea is to build it and run it in parrelel with what we have now. Get it functioning and trusted and simply try to roll over what we have now. I figure something tragic would need to happen to create a power void for full implementation. Like yellowstone erupting or something. I was also thinking that we need to teach the kids. We need to give them tools to build on so they can take this kind of idea to fruition.
I am just a regular idiot, so feel free to add anything constructive.
It’s a great idea. I think half the people just don’t give a fuck at all.
Among people who say they care- look how rapidly disinformation is spread about anything and everything. Billionaires would be gaming the system from the get-go. I’m just pessimistic. I really do love the idea and I hope we get there some day.
Based on how Trump 2.0 is going though we might just get that tragedy.
I don’t think this idea I have involves any billionaires with power. It would be pointless. With everything decentralized there would be no mega corps at all. They wouldn’t have politicians to bribe. They would have to make the majority of people happy with them to be allowed. I also consider that in a world designed for quality of life instead of profit we wouldn’t need to have 9-5 jobs to survive. Our production has been growing rapidly for a long time and all of the proceeds have been getting held by ~1000 people who have centralized profits to themselves. With decentralized communism the economy would be like one big co-op. No company owners, the community would have say in how products are sourced and distributed. How people who invest more in the system are rewarded by the system. Couple things to help understand where my head is at. I think we can decentralize and open source services like amazon, home depot, walmart,… We don’t need oligarchy to come together and use economy of scale. We could have a sales platform free for everyone that could source directly from manufacturers. No mark up, not even in the manufacturing. No profit model at all. This factors in that labor needs are going to plummet. Take media, I predict all media will be AI generated and personalized. You could have a never ending show. One that knows how to keep you entertained. You could even be a character in it where your screen is just the view, so now we are in VR, like a gta map. Now the big change, This will all happen in our heads. check this shit out https://synchron.com/ . We are about to have hivemind irl. I only want to discuss posative implications. I am super fucked up over thinking about what capitalism is going to do with direct access to our subconsciousness.
How do you solve the problem that half the country can’t even be bothered to participate once every four years?
I assume you’re talking about the US electoral system?? That’s very different.
but how would we get people to engage with such a system?
By empowering them.
Consider how the current electoral system disempowers people:
-
Some people literally cannot vote or risk jeopardizing their job taking the day off, others face voter suppression tactics
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The FPTP system (esp. spoiler effect) and the present political circumstances mean that there are really only two viable options for political parties for most people, so many feel that neither option represents them, let alone their individual positions on policy
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Politics is widely considered to be corrupt and break electoral promises regularly. There is little faith in either party to represent voters
But, in a system where you are able to represent yourself at will, engagement is actually rewarding and meaningful. It won’t magically make everyone care, but direct democracy alongside voter rights reform would likely make more people think it’s worth polling.
I hope you’re right. I would love to see it. I actually support mandatory voting like in Australia. With mostly current laws everyone could get a mail in ballot. If you don’t want to participate just check that box at the top, sign it, and send it in.
Your system sounds much better but would require a lot more legislation.
Well, it would require more than just legislation change. Truth be told, in the US, a working democracy requires some form of revolution since the people holding all the power benefit from the broken system. But on the other hand, organizations and communities (including territories of hundreds of thousands) practicing direct democracy on a smaller scale have seen success with these strategies.
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Yeah that’s why the Soviet union outcompeted capitalism in the 1980s lmao
That you had to qualify it with a date after it had been corrupted by the west, implies that you’re well aware of how well communism served for half a century before that.
They went from a nation of dirt poor peasants, to a nuclear superpower driving the space race in just a couple of decades. All thanks to communism. And also why China is leaving us in the dust.
Yeah just had to genocide a few million Ukrainians to get there!
Any corrupt leaders are capable of committing genocide. The difference is capitalism requires genocide to continue functioning.
No it doesn’t. It requires imperialism. The genocides are simply efficient for the imperial machine creating settlements, but it’s not a requirement. They’re evidently avoidable and capitalists just repeatedly decide not to avoid it because they consider it cheaper to commit genocide rather than integrate more passively.
Imperialism requires genocide. Where do you think the people from that land go to?
How’s that boot taste
LoL. What boot? I’m advocating for worker control, genius.
There are many instances of communism failing lmao
There are also many current communist states that have less freedom than many capitalist states
Also, you need to ask the Uyghurs how they’re feeling about their experience under the communist government you’re speaking so highly of at the moment.
How many of those instances failed due to external factors, such as illegal sanctions or a western coup or western military aggression?
Which communist states would you say have less freedom than your country? Let’s compare.
The Uyghur genocide was debunked. Even the US state department was forced to admit they didn’t have the evidence to support their claims. In reality, western intelligence agencies were trying to radicalize the Uyghurs to destabilize the region, but China has been rehabilitating them. The intel community doesn’t like their terrorist fronts to be shut down.
LMAO found the pro-Xi propagandist account
Either you’re brainwashed, are only reading one-sided articles, or you’re an adolescent with little world experience given how confidently you speak in absolutes, which doesn’t reflect how nuanced the global stage is.
I’m not saying capitalism is the best, but communism won’t ALWAYS beat out capitalism (as it hasn’t regardless of external factors b/c if those regimes were strong enough they would be able to handle or recover from external pressures) nor does it REQUIRE negatively affecting others as your other comment says. You’re just delulu.
Remember, while there maybe instances where all versions of a certain class of anything are equal, in most cases they are not. So blanketly categorizing as your have done just reflects your lack of historical perspective.
You should really drop the overconfidence, and re-evaluate your biases and perspectives. Regurgitating western propaganda almost verbatim is not a good sign that you’re on the right path.
Its smells like wumao in here.
you need to ask the Uyghurs how they’re feeling about their experience under the communist government
Everytime people ask regular Uyghurs, they’re usually happy enough with it. I’m guessing you mean ask Adrian Zenz and the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation to tell the Uyghurs what they think.
You don’t even realise how strong capitalism is in China.
It sounds like you don’t know what “capitalism” means. Market participation exists in other economy types, too. It’s how the means of production are controlled and the profits distributed that defines capitalism vs communism.
And you don’t lift 800 million people out of poverty under capitalism. Or they’ve done a ridiculously bad job of concentrating profits into the hands of a very small few.
The issue with your original comment is that it’s simplified on many levels beyond what is acceptable. China has companies working on delivering highest financial output regardless of other citizens and their rights to have fair share in produced goods. They are by no means controlled by workers (why would they accept e. g. 996?) nor creating fair rules to others economically (e.g. Taobao and their alghorims pushing many sellers to sell bellow profitable levels just to maintain visibility on their site). Put it also into wider perspective: China started to move forward in quality of life only after Deng. US system is by no means bad but it doesn’t make Chinese one perfect.
I don’t think you understand how China’s economy works. Seems very clouded by anti-China propaganda.
In reality, the working class exercises a great deal of control over the means of production in China, and the 996 culture you’re referring to is in fact illegal.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-58381538.amp
Again, capitalism vs communism is not defined by the existence of production/profits/markets, but how control and benefit of those systems is distributed.
I disagree. Under the right conditions (read: actual competition instead of unregulated monopolies) I think a capitalist system be able to stay ahead, though I think both systems could compete depending on how they’re organized.
But what I’m more interested in is you view that China is still Socialist/Communist. Isn’t DeepSeek a private company trying to maximize profits for itself by innovating, instead of a public company funded by the people? I don’t really know myself, but my perspective was that this was more of a capitalist vs capitalist situation. With one side (the US) kinda suffering from being so unregulated that innovation dies down.
Capitalism will by its very nature always lead to monopolies and depressed innovation. You cannot prevent corruption, while concentrating control of the means of production in the hands of a very few.
They released DeepSeek for free. It was a side project the company worked on. How is releasing it for free in any way profit seeking?
Good. That shit is way overvalued.
There is no way that Nvidia are worth 3 times as much as TSMC, the company that makes all their shit and more besides.
I’m sure some of my market tracker funds will lose value, and they should, because they should never have been worth this much to start with.
But TSMC is “encumbered” by all of these plant and equipment mate 🤡
It’s because Nvidia is an American company and also because they make final stage products. American companies right now are all overinflated and almost none of the stocks are worth what they’re at because of foreign trading influence.
As much as people whine about inflation here, the US didn’t get hit as bad as many other countries and we recovered quickly which means that there is a lot of incentive for other countries to invest here. They pick our top movers, they invest in those. What you’re seeing is people bandwagoning onto certain stocks because the consistent gains create more consistent gains for them.
The other part is that yes, companies who make products at the end stage tend to be worth a lot more than people trading more fundamental resources or parts. This is true of almost every industry except oil.
The US is also a regulations haven compared to other developed economies, corporations get away with shit in most places but America is on a whole other level of regulatory capture.
It is also because the USA is the reserve currency of the world with open capital markets.
Savers of the world (including countries like Germany and China who have excess savings due to constrained consumer demand) dump their savings into US assets such as stocks.
This leads to asset bubbles and an uncompetitively high US dollar.
The current administration is working real hard on removing trust and value of anything American.
Yuuuuup…might just put their market into…🤔 Freefall?
The root problem they are trying to fix is real (systemic trade imbalances) but they way they are trying to fix it is terrible and won’t work.
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Only a universally applied tariff would work in theory but would require other countries not to retaliate (there will 100% be retaliation).
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It doesn’t really solve the root cause, capital inflows into the USA rather than purchasing US goods and services.
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Trump wants to maintain being the reserve currency which is a big part of the problem (the strength of currency may not align with domestic conditions, i.e. high when it needs to be low).
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I consider myself to be a Saver of the World.
Our Lord and Saver
That probably also means that when the trend reverses it will turn into a rout.
Yeah lot of companies are way overvalued look at Carvana, how is this company worth 50 billion?
It’s fun seeing these companies take a hit and the bubble deflate, but long term won’t this just make AI a more alluring form of enshittification to a wider audience?
Yeah I’d say so - but you can’t put the genie in the bottle.
It’s just fighting for who gets the privilege to do so
This has nothing to do with DeepSeek. The world has run out of flashy leather jackets for Jensen to wear, so nvidia is toast.
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It all makes sense now!
nvidia falling doesn’t make much sense to me, GPUs are still needed to run the model. Unless Nvidia is involved in its own AI model or something?
DeepSeek proved you didn’t need anywhere near as much hardware to train or run an even better AI model
Imagine what would happen to oil prices if a manufacturer comes out with a full ice car that can run 1000 miles per gallon… Instead of the standard American 3 miles per 1.5 gallons hehehe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
more efficient use of oil will lead to increased demand, and will not slow the arrival or the effects of peak oil.
Energy demand is infinite and so is the demand for computing power because humans always want to do MORE.
Yes but that’s not the point… If you can buy a house for $1000 nobody would buy a similar house for $500000
Eventually the field would even out and maybe demand would surpass current levels, but for the time being, Nvidia’s offer seem to be a giant surplus and speculators will speculate
If you need far less computing power to train the models, far less gpus are needed, and that hurts nvidia
does it really need less power? I’m playing around with it now and I’m pretty impressed so far. it can do math, at least.
That’s the claim, it has apparently been trained using a fraction of the compute power of the GPT models and achieves similar results.
fascinating. my boss really bought into the tech bro bullshit, every time we get coffee as a team, he’s always going on and on about how chatGPT will be the savior of humanity, increase productivity so much that we’ll have a 2 day work week, blah blah blah.
I’ve been on his shit list lately because i had to take some medical leave and didn’t deliver my project on time.
Now that this thing is open sourced, I can bring it to him, tell him it out performs even chatgpt O1 or whatever it is, and tell him that we can operate it locally. I’ll be off the shit list and back into his good graces and maybe even get a raise.
Make sure you explain open source to them so they know it’s not spyware.
Your boss sounds like he buys into bullshit for a living. Maybe that’s what drew him to the job, lol.
I think believing in our corporate AI overlords is even overshadowed by believing those same corporations would pass the productivity gains on to their employees.
But I feel like that will just lead to more training with the same (or more) hardware with a more efficient model. Bitcoin mining didn’t slow down only because it got harder. However I don’t know enough about the training process. I assume more efficient use of the hardware would allow for larger models to be trained on the same hardware and training data?
They’ll probably do that, but that’s assuming we aren’t past the point of diminishing returns.
The current LLM’s are pretty basic in how they work, and it could be that with the current training we’re near what they’ll ever be capable of. They’ll of course invest a billion in training a new generation, but if it’s only marginally better than the current one, they won’t keep investing billions into it if it doesn’t really improve the results.
Okay, cool…
So, how much longer before Nvidia stops slapping a “$500-600 RTX XX70” label on a $300 RTX XX60 product with each new generation?
The thinly-veiled 75-100% price increases aren’t fun for those of us not constantly-touching-themselves over AI.
