- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
Summary
European officials are preparing a multibillion-dollar defense package to bolster regional security and support Ukraine, announced by German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock at the Munich Security Conference.
The package, potentially valued up to 700 billion euros, will fund military training, arms deliveries, and security guarantees amid concerns over Russian aggression and diminishing U.S. contributions to NATO.
The move follows calls for Europe to boost its own defense spending while U.S.-Russian talks, which exclude Ukraine and Europe, on ending the Ukraine conflict continue.
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Realistically, the only actual solution to this problem in any long term would probably involve stationing nukes, which nobody really wants to do. A combination of not wanting to risk pissing off putin, because everyone thinks that he’s an insane trump-level idiot that will engage in mutual self-destruction over ukraine, combined with the post-soviet destruction and hollowing out of the ukranian economy into private enterprise, an economy which wasn’t exactly doing hot before. So it’s pretty clear that most everyone doesn’t actually give a fuck about ukraine or the ukranian people at all. Everyone’s just gonna use this as an opportunity, as with every conflict, to pawn off old military hardware, bury the receiving country in a huge amount of IMF bank loan debt, and scale up their own domestic military production while paying off a bunch of private contractors which are, hmm, suspiciously close to the levers of power inside the real government. Weird how that happens. What a noble sacrifice.
I dunno, the wheels turn.
I don’t get why the EU still wants to maintain its confrontation mode? Wouldn’t it be better to just find peaceful solutions for the future?
Would it be better? Yes! Is it possible? That would depend on Russia and they don’t seem very eager.
As for Ukraine coinciding chunks of their country, it was tried before (Crimia) and the result was Russia getting overconfident and trying to grab the whole country. Sadly sometimes use of force is the only way. Hopefully, this increase will lead to forcing Russian to negotiate for peace.
Because of this:
Every single European country with a shared border with Russia has mandatory military service (that red exception on the map is Latvia, which also reinstated it in 2024). This is how much Russia is trusted.
Are you a Russian bot
No. Are u an EU bot?
Absolutely.
That’s not really how global politics and diplomacy works.
If the only “peaceful solution” Russia will accept is the surrender of Ukraine, what do you expect them to do?
Having a well provisioned and trained standing army also encourages your opponents to seek peaceful solutions.
The Russians couldn’t care less that Europe has an army.
Or even their US masters.
There is a problem when they expand NATO with possibly nukes in Ukraine, too close to defend from.
That is a red line, and was known since forever.
And when you lose a war you negotiate surrender.
They are always reasonable and will be OK with a safety buffer. NATO can do what they want with the rest.
I think the reason is: because the EU has seen nothing good coming recently from Trump’s or Putin’s mouth.
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Putin’s previous record is that he poisons opposition figures, attacks countries and attempts to conquer them. He has not resigned from the goal of controlling Ukraine yet, so there is no reason to come out of war mode - and indeed, perhaps going deeper into war mode will make him willing to let go.
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Trump’s previous record is that he makes a mess where he goes, has previously obstructed military assistance to Ukraine multiple times. On his best days, he behaves like a protection racket.
Those two are currently negotiating “behind the shed” somewhere.
What EU is doing, is putting together a contingency plan for a possible outcome: Trump helping reach an agreement which Ukraine cannot accept, and US support to Ukraine ceasing to flow.
In that case, the EU must move enough military resources to replace the US. The package volume (0.7 US defense budgets, in addition to EU countries’ individual defense budgets) indicates that it’s a “replace the US” package.
LOL nonsense
I’m not completely sure if the post you replied to was sincere based on its tone but appreciate your well reasoned comprehensive analysis.
Honestly 0.7 US defence budgets is quite an impressive sum of money for the EU to be able to cough up overnight.
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If Russia overruns Ukraine, the rest of them are next. Putin is an imperialist.
Sure, it would be better with a peaceful solution: Russia should stop attacking and pay for the damage they’ve already done.
The solution proposed by Putin and Trump is not peaceful.
There’s no negotiation with Putin, please please stop this stupid pacifist line of thinking
We (EU) should have unleashed our defense industry 3 years ago. Hopefully, the US MIC received the message, their profits are going to sink unless the orange turd starts to provide military aid to fucking Russia.
Well, there are some in the EU who are hoping to bargain with Trump so that we reduce our import taxes on American cars (US has them at 2.5%, we have them at 10%, so we’ve been doing exactly what Trump is trying to do, at a smaller scale), buy more weaponry from them and as the US ramps up its’ gas production, we could buy more of that from them as well - if Trump in return does not put 25% tariffs on everything made in the EU.
It’s not a bad deal for either side, really, though it sorta defers the whole making more of our own weaponry part of trying to be more independent of the US. And I’m sure both the automakers and MIC would do what’s in their power to persuade Trump to take it.
Please factor in Putin. The EU is under a two prong attack from the USA and Russia and any reasonable or fair deals will be ignored. When you examine the US auto manufacturers, they have nothing to offer for the majority of consumers in the EU. We could apply 0% tariffs to US manufactured automobiles and they would end up sitting at the dealerships.
When you examine the US auto manufacturers, they have nothing to offer for the majority of consumers in the EU.
Yeah, they’ve shot themselves entirely in the foot. Used to be every other car was a Ford Sierra, then later Ford Mondeo… Opel was pretty big, but GM sold them so now it’s a Stellantis brand and Stellantis is more French/Italian than American…
Still, there’s market for muscle cars and trucks. And Teslas in recent history, but probably no longer.
Hey I’m American and I’m all for EU paying for the war in perpetuity and for our mic sinking all the way to the bottom on Mariana trench.
What’s mic?
Military industrial complex obvsly
Military Industrial Complex
In a way, it’s what I was hoping would happen. The US backs off its own defense spending and stops acting like the world police force. The flip side of that is that Europe and the rest of the world picks up their own defense.
What I had in mind as an end game is that the US would be at a table of equals. That’s not at all what this is.
Not saying it’s not the right thing to do, but I hope America is ready for the loss of jobs that will come with scaling back the military. There will be a lot of associated small businesses and stuff you wouldn’t have thought of that will also get defunded outside of direct military spending.
The answer to that is we pick it up in other ways, like universal health care or building schools, which would benefit the economy in other ways. There’s nothing special about military spending that makes it more effective at Keynesian economics than anything else. In fact, it’s probably worse.
Not that Keynesian economics was anything other than keeping capitalism going past its expiration date, of course.
Universal healthcare and building schools in this brave new America? They are killing off “woke” spending on renewables so I would not hold your breath for the former.
I think the reality is that new destitute communities will be created next to the former factories that used to supply the MIC.
Destitute communities come with a lot of political instability which probably has to be channeled into something, which despite what everyone’s been thinking so far, has sort of been, to mixed or poor success with basically every succeeding administration. The protests keep getting bigger, basically. You get a big or well-organized enough one of those, and then there’s a chance that you get something much more serious than chaz, or you get a politically galvanizing one-sided massacre, or something else to that effect.
What the realistically means is Europe will be starting it’s nuclear weapon programs in earnest again. France and the UK have a handful, but it’ll need a lot more to be an actual deterrent for Russia.
Russia only cares about Moscow and st Petersburg. Britain and France have more than enough to turn those two cities into glowing glass craters.
I am an American and I am willing to endure the pain caused by the rest of the world telling our orange turd to fuck off. Please do it. Please make it so incredibly painful that even those who love Orange Turd will start to smell it and reject it. Make it sooo sooo bitter!
Trump could literally start world war 3 and his supporters would still back him.
MAGA cultists will gladly eat up all the shit that’s served to them, and even gleefully ask for more of they think there’s even a passing chance that a Dem/liberal/leftie would smell their breath.
The US willing descent towards Gilead has been horrific to watch, as an outsider.
The sooner the rest of the civilised world decouples from that insanity, and hopefully bands together around the common ideals that the US used to (at least pretend to) represent - the better.
The sooner the rest of the civilised world decouples from that insanity, and hopefully bands together around the common ideals that the US used to (at least pretend to) represent - the better.
The problem is that I feel the rest of the civilized world is going down the same path, and is just several big steps behind…
It’s a lot harder to do in some other democratic structures. 100 % for sure we have not yet reached end-game governance styles, no one and nothing is immune to sustained malice, but (for example) multi-party cabinets are a lot harder to ‘flip’ then just stealing one election and press the fascist button, which is what this ( States of Murica politics ) kind of feels like from a distance.
That well may be the case, all we can do is hope that the rest of the world can bulwark against the rise of Fascism long enough to watch it fail in the US - at which point, it should hopefully diminish its allure.
That’s true. Much like Brexit in the UK stopped other countries’ appetite for their own brexits.
In the UK the parties and the politicians who pushed for brexit are now having serious problems because they can’t justify it. The vast majority of people who supported it now think it was a disaster.
considering the meeting that just took place in Saudi Arabia, I fear that is entirely possible.
Finally Ukraine is getting the help they need! Kick out Russia once and for all!
Finally Ukraine is getting the help they need!
This might actually be the silver lining of it all.
There has been an uncomfortable disparity between words of support and actual support. I heard many times that the ultimate goal the Pentagon wants to achieve is Russia not losing the war. Out of (comprehensible) fear a falling dictator might throw a last Tantrum235. Germany has also been firmly sitting on the brakes from the start. Remember 5000 helmets? And the (for some Ukrainians literally) gut-tearing discussions at each and every step, wether this is Putins red line, or that is Putins red line, wether this or that might escalate the war, all while Putin escalates the war.
Now that the DSA have kissed themselves goodbye, Europe seems to finally realize what’s at stake and oops they can do something about it. So there is hope Germany might get it’s fat ass off the track. There is even talk about Germany taking a leadership role, though given the context, this must be dark humour. Gotta love that.
Fingers crossed Europe unites in action and Ukraine is getting the help they need! Doing otherwise would send a strong signal to the new Imperialists in east and west that you can pick and chew at our borders, be it the Baltics or Greenland.
Germany has also been firmly sitting on the brakes from the start. Remember 5000 helmets?
Remember how it took like two days to overturn 70 years of precedence of “no weapons delivery into crisis regions”? Without us actually having a debate about it because there was an overwhelming majority for it from the get-go? Those 5000 helmets were part of the initial “find what we have and what we can legally send” order, which then arrived in Ukraine in the same shipment as the first actual weapons.
The, say, tank situation is ambiguous, I don’t have enough insider information to actually make a judgement. Either Germany said “only if the US says it’s ok” or Germany said “let’s put some political pressure on the US to get into the game, to commit”. Ultimately, Germany shipped everything but Taurus. I think we should – and much of the parliament agrees. Majority, actually, but not the governing majority so as is tradition parties voted against their own actual position. I guess that it’s being held back so something is being held back so that certain peacenik SPD parliamentarians can be assuaged.
So there is hope Germany might get it’s fat ass off the track.
FDP is probably out and with that ideological (instead of merely populist) sentiment against spending money, Black-Green looks quite likely and in case anyone is confused yes the Greens are hawkish AF about this one. The discussions around Yugoslavia turned them from singing kumba ya into liberal interventionists and I haven’t heard “olive-green” used as an insult in quite a while.
Just curious, how can a right wing-green coalition be viable? Don’t they clash on many major issues? Or to they succeed at walking the narrow tightrope of compromise?
The Greens in Baden-Württemberg are to the right of the CDU in Schleswig-Holstein. The Greens aren’t a left-wing party as such, they’re liberals. Not neolibs but soclibs but liberals nontheless, and the CDU is perfectly capable of getting into coalitions with the SPD which is to the left of that. Well, at least on paper.
Remember how it took like two days to overturn 70 years of precedence of “no weapons delivery into crisis regions”?
Oh, thanks. Yeah, now I remember making that jump, too, although it took me more than two days. Wild times.
Hofreiter (Greens) put it quite well … something like … not our ideals have changed, but the world has changed, brutally so.
I think you did well in dialing back my comment and adding more context, although I still think there was truth in it.
Hofreiter (Greens) put it quite well … something like … not our ideals have changed, but the world has changed, brutally so.
Now that’s the kind of Greens I like to see.
Germany is the 2nd / 3rd largest contributor with about €15 billion. And you bring up 5000 helmets? That’s just pathetic and false.
Also, make sure to use per capita numbers.
Not sure how 0.00006 helmets per capita is the better figure, but there you go.
Yes, I mean, for Germany, being the 3rd largest economy in the world (only surpassed by the USA and China), it would be a real shame if they were not among the topmost supporters in total. Here, it makes much more sense to use per capita numbers, relate to GDP or whatever. Compared to it’s economic potential, Germany is merely #15 in supporting Ukraine with Denmark, Finland, and the Baltics doing at least twice as much.
If you deem the bit about the 0…6 helmets per capita to be false, what’s the correct take?
Most of that money will likely go into expanding the defense industrial base and infrastructure. That includes not just buildings but training and hiring engineers and technicians.
Lots of essential things in NATO are run by USA. Airlift capability is a big example. Luckily Ukraine has some serious capability there and cooperation has been done for a long time already. Building an independent intelligence infrastructure, satellites, and so on is a major task as well. Command organization is built around the US and will need to be built as well. Training of Air Force pilots also happens in the US for most European militaries. That means building air bases, infrastructure, hiring and training additional staff, etc. Nuclear weapons and delivery systems are another big concern.
Europe has capabilities in all of this already, but it’s dwarfed by the US.
Europe will likely have to spend double the rumored 700 billion to achieve something credible.
Europe will likely have to spend double the rumored 700 billion to achieve something credible.
So, what you’re saying is that this spending package for defense is NonCredible?
About time they pull their weight
This is the best thing about a Donald Trump presidency: sometimes good things happen by accident, and it’s definitely a good thing for the EU to be depending less on the US.
Same thing that happened with Canada. This man is so stupid it’s coming full circle
Happening but not happened quite yet. It’s still a minefield at the grocery store to shop for things not partially or fully prepared in the US. For seemingly ubiquitous things like cream cheese or pickles, from recent outings.
The funny thing is he whines about the trade deficit being $200B (which is a lie, because that’s all he ever does) he may actually cause the trade deficit to actually be $200B.
Thank you, Europe. God, let this be what Ukraine needs.
This is also what Europe needs. Europe needs to seriously increase their domestic military manufacturing capabilities now that the US has proven they can’t be trusted.
If this money is invested in European military industries then they will need to considerably ramp up their production and overall it will strengthen European military power.
They also need to cut the US out of any involvement in Ukraine
Insane
If Ukraine fails, then the rest of the world will go to war.
It’s waaayyyy cheaper to throw $ and equipment at Ukraine than have WW3
If Ukraine fails, then the rest of the world will go to war.
What a batshit crazy claim.
If anything, using ukraine as a proxy, giving them missiles that can reach deep into Russia, etc is what has gotten us close to WW3.
This is great but IMHO they really need to start building industrial capacity to produce millitary stuff as well. Money’s no use when nobody wants to sell you weapons for it…
Errrm, 5 of the worlds largest exporters are European
Oh, thanks for the heads up. That’s good to know.
Some of the most iconic and renowned weapons of the 20th and 21st centuries were made by European countries. HK is a German company for example.
Zut alors! Vastly outclassed by France, Scheiße!
I think we should give a nuke to Ukraine. One would be enough to stop all this BS.
I keep hoping the Palestinians will get their hands on one for the same reason.
so what would you think hamas do with nukes?
The same thing every other country does with nukes.
Genocide?
Is that a serious point you’re trying to make?
I thought you put it together already. Hamas’ willingness to sacrifice Palestinians is only second to IDF. They’d drop that bomb without hesitation if that meant the final defeat of Israel.
I think your analysis might be the silliest thing I’ve ever seen. A nuclear bomb in both nations’ hands is the only thing that is going to end this war. It’s called ‘Mutually-Assured Destruction’.
But thank you for response.
The limited military capabilities of Palestinians has restrained Israel’s actions.
How should Palestinians use that nuke?
The limited military capabilities of Palestinians has restrained Israel’s actions.
If you say so.
How should Palestinians use that nuke?
They shouldn’t use it, per se.
Just make threats with it, like most countries do. Having a nuke is a deterrent.
I don’t think Israel would care. Or the USA
I mean, if you’re assuming the worst, a nuclear strike could pretty much wipe israel almost entirely off the map. With a more conservative and realistic positioning, you know, one singular, small nuke, probably sourced from somewhere else, then you’d still be looking at probably 20,000 people dead or injured if it were to hit the downtown of any city. You know, ten times the amount of october 7th. That would be a huge international incident, especially seeing as how the nuke would have to be provided by some other foreign government, which means that there could be a chance of a probably unpreventable follow-up attack at almost any time. It would be a pretty big deal, even if they were credibly threatened. I mean, that’s part of why Iran isn’t allowed to have a nuclear program.
Funny enough, when the USSR split up, Ukraine did have nukes, briefly. It was, you guessed it, the US that convinced them to give all their warheads to Russia.
Yeah, I heard that. But I think that Ukraine couldn’t actually use the nukes so they were of limited use, like maybe they could have been repurposed or something. But yeah no doubt about it, Ukraine got screwed and now they’re finishing the job. I hope they sell their resources to anyone else, China or North Korea before they let Russia or the US have them.
One won’t be enough. If they use it, Russia will at least hit the whole frontline with tactical nukes, maybe wipe out a city or two. That means Ukraine can’t use it, making it as valuable as a paperweight. For credible nuclear deterrence a country needs a few dozen nuclear weapons and more than one delivery method.
Noone who has nukes can use them, but that’s not the point. Just the threat is enough. One nuke with enough juice to get it to Moscow would be enough. I’m pretty sure if any country ever used a nuke, the whole world would explode.
There are air defenses that could potentially shoot down a missile before it hits its target. So one means there’s merely a probability of destroying Moscow. A psychopath like Putin may be willing to take that risk, and even if Moscow got nuked, Russia would still exist (though obviously it would be significantly diminished), and he’d have justification for using nukes on Ukraine.
For MAD to apply you need enough nukes to be an existential threat to another country when you’re dealing with psychopaths that would be fine with potentially millions of people dying if it means they come out on top in a war.
I think he’d be smart enough to not want to take the risk of destroying so much. Yeah he’s a psychopath but who would gamble with that kind of destruction… I guess if the nuke failed to explode that’s another consideration but I’d assumed even if the air defences worked in any sense, the nuke would still detonate? If that happened in the air, wouldn’t it kill/maim a lot of people and taint land with the radioactivity?
What worries me is that the UK nukes are (I think) unable to be used without US authority so at the moment they’re essentially useless even as a deterrent. I saw Kier Starmer giving that speech recently and yep, we’re in trouble lol, he’s no good at hiding his feelings. I almost feel sorry for him, except that I remember what he did to become the labour leader.
The threat needs to be credible though. One bomb is not enough because it could be destroyed in a first strike without fear of a second strike.
One bomb won’t make it to Moscow. Air defense will take down a single attacking missile or plane.
Them not being involved in the peace talks underlines again how indispensable nuclear weapons are, sadly.
The DSA playing hopscotch with whose ally they are underlines how worthless a shared nuclear umbrella can be.
So a grim lesson for Ukraine, Europe, Taiwan and pretty much any country with any border tensions, or anything another aspiring imperialist might find desireable: Get nukes, own them yourselfes, or risk being thrown aside or being steamrolled. Trump undoing decades of existential anti-proliferation work in mere days.
Imagine spending 700 billions in useful things and not to fight a proxy war against russia.
Imagine not being a complete moron. I know that’s impossible for you.
Says the pro russian
If they don’t spend 700 billion on this, the “proxy” war with Russia (that is currently “cheap” for most of Europe to support), will cost them far, far, far, far more than 700 billion in a few short years/months.
This is why you support proxy wars when they’re in your interest.
It’s like outsourcing a future war to a country that won’t touch your shores.
Ukraine is getting fucked up by Russia right now. Mines, bombs, guns, battle, towns destroyed, infrastructure disruptions, etc.
You want that contained in Ukraine as much as possible. The second they lose, it will spill out into all of Europe and will be far more expensive and too late to contain.
And this is if we only strictly try and think about this fiscally. The human, social and moral side only expands from this, and are much more important, too.
Could do that if tanks weren’t rolling across the border, and missiles weren’t raining down. Could avoid the whole thing by just kneeling and kissing the ring, capitulating to economic and cultural domination by a foreign mafia. Could really simplify life by abandoning European identity, self-respect and agency to become a pawn to the East instead of looking to the West for help.
Too bad they are top strong a people for that.
Hah, strong reply. 👍
Could avoid the whole thing by just kneeling and kissing the ring, capitulating to economic and cultural domination by a foreign mafia.
You are already doing that, bend the knee and kiss orange man and his oligarch boots.
Yeah, imagine ignoring the aggressor next to you in order to by nice things.
It’s not just nice things, but useful ones.
There are people living in poverty that could be brought out of it with this money. Instead it’s being used to kill each other.
Ensured sovereignty sounds pretty useful to me.
We are all humans living in the same planet countries are invisible lines draw on a map
Then you’d be fine living in a world run by Kim Jong Un, right? Countries are invisible lines.
Or under trump, as clearly its all the same right?
The world run by kim jong un is a military dictatorship that spend the equivalent of european billions in war. Unlike you i don’t want any of this shit, i would like public billions to be spend on useful things and not to fight proxy wars against made up enemies.
You’re changing the subject. I was talking about how sovereignty is useful.
And I’d say it’s pretty fucking useful when a dictator is threatening to take over where you live.
And we want to keep living, so we need to be prepared.
True: they could get decent income in a weapons factory.
Or they could get decent income in a factory building almost anything else.
I am sure the russian/US/whoever will really like all those useful things. Those people in poverty will really do well under the aggressors rule. After all they will be all given a job (disposable soldier, baby machine, etc.) and when they die their family might even get a lada.
And if Putin could calm the fuck down then we could.
Putin leverage military spending the same way: “if the west calm the fuck down we could”
USA, Russia, China, Europe they are all corrupted as fuck ruled by maniacs who seek war and power.
All of Europe? All EU leaders? Just the EU president, who has a mostly ceremonial role?
I’m being nitpicky, no state is anyone’s friend and no superpower (or wannabe) comes even half as close as a state to being on your side.
Whoever spend billions in war instead useful things is the aggressor
You have to spend money on weapons in order to have the privilege of sitting peacefully with those weapons rather than dying on your enemies.
Peace is not achieved by spending trillions in war. Look around yourself what’s happening there’s no peace.
In all of history peace has only ever been achieved by being strong enough to deter would be conquerors. Without deterrence Russia would crush Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Ukraine whilst threatening all of Europe. The US would take Canada, Greenland. NK would take South Korea. China would take Taiwan.
The world has never been free of evil powerful men who would take from their neighbors. What you think looks like peace has only ever been most of the situations being stable based in large part on people’s willingness to murder people who would come to murder and take from them. If you aren’t actually willing to fight you won’t find yourself safe very long.
Military aid between nations creates stability by drastically increasing the cost of attacking one party lest an empire expand by taking one bite at a time and becoming strong enough to threaten larger neighbors in the process.
Si vis pacem, para bellum
This phrase didn’t age well in the past 2000 years
It absolutely did.
So, the US and Russia are the aggressors, so, they need to be repelled, right?
Which costs money.
Is your point that Russia should be allowed to steam roll through Ukraine? Europe shouldn’t help their allies and neighbors defend themselves? Standing up to bullies is worse than being a bully?
Genuinely curious if you even have a point to make at all. I hope I’m just interpreting you wrong.
Nobody should help authoritarian governments and nobody should sell weapons to them. Ukranian people and the ukranian government are two different things, same goes for every country.
Standing up to bullies is worse than being a bully?
Nobody is standing up to shit, russians are chilling in saudi arabia docked next to americans yachts bought with money from the military industry.
Stand up against useless wars and military spending
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/emma-goldman-preparedness-the-road-to-universal-slaughter
Stand up against useless wars and military spending
Meanwhile, read about Ukrainian anarchists building drones and sending supplies for their comrades in army.
They know: if you get Putin’s regime deployed on yourself, your chances for peaceful activism tumble down to nothing - you can’t even hold a blank sheet of paper.
World governments don’t care about ukrainians the same way they don’t care about children in gaza getting murdered. They don’t care about democracy either as they are in bed with saudi arabia and other dictatorships.
Watch out when you ear about “anarchists” fighting along side authoritarian governments because that’s something anarchists don’t do by definition.
So since adjusting by PPP Russia has spent over a trillion in USD on the war, that makes Russia the aggressor?
Is this a joke? Sorry so much time living in clown world has made it hard to tell.
I already have him flagged as a troll, so you can just ignore him.
In a world where everyone is brainwashed by state propaganda advocating for peace and military spending cut is considered a joke.
The sentiment is understandable and in a naive sense I agree, but the paradox of tolerance applies here, and it’s not so straight forward.
Sometimes you just have to punch a nazi in order to stop them getting too comfortable and getting bold. Well, right now the equivalent of the nazis here are, and have been, emboldened for over a decade, and it’s unfortunately going to take a lot of punches to stop them swallowing everyone whole and imposing even worse environments and even more poverty for all.
Here’s the paradox of tolerance to you: we are ruled by maniacs corrupted by money and power who seek war and chaos as a leverage to get more wealth and fuel their insanity. We either stop them and oppose their military spending or we are all ending up in a meat grinder fighting one against the other.
Yeah, well, say we successfully block any further military spending here in the eu.
Is Russia going to stop their spending? USA?
No?
Then what will we do when they come for us next?
This wouldn’t be a factor if our nations were almost alike and no practical changes would occur should they conquer majority of Europe, but most of Europe is comparatively in another sphere in terms of progressiveness and social stuff. Compared both to USA and Russia.
Would the 700bn used, right now, in some better causes be worth it, if in somewhat near future we’ll have our minorities in concentration camps, killed or expelled? Our social systems torn to shreds, poverty and income differences rising? The authoritarian/oligarch rule we’d get then would spend that 700bn in many multiples in warfare, but also similar amounts extra for police and other oppressive powers to silence any and all opposition.
I’m just saying there are things worth defending, such as lgbtq+ rights, (comparatively much more progressive and universal) social equality and you know, the basics such as low levels of impoverishment, guaranteed housing for everyone, quality and unhindered education etc etc.
Then what will we do when they come for us next?
Even if you assume the whole world is trying to invade you (which is not true) you can defend yourself even without a government spending billions on war designed to murder other people.
Would the 700bn used, right now, in some better causes be worth it, if in somewhat near future we’ll have our minorities in concentration camps, killed or expelled? Our social systems torn to shreds, poverty and income differences rising? The authoritarian/oligarch rule we’d get then would spend that 700bn in many multiples in warfare, but also similar amounts extra for police and other oppressive powers to silence any and all opposition.
You are describing the scenario you don’t want to happen. Our social system is torn to shred already, poverty and income differences are rising and billions are going to oppressive powers such as the military
Russia literally said they want to take an entire list of places where 100M people live and make them Russia. The US said it intended to take CA and Greenland.
Anyone willing to stand up to defend these places would end up in a war. If everyone abandons their neighbors then there is absolutely no reason for Russia, the US, and China to divide up the world between them. These are people with their own plans, nations, cultures who don’t want to choose whose boot to live under. The only way to do this is to be able to fight.
Putin always had designs to re-create the Russian empire, with Europe included, and the US as a puppet state.
The thing is, there are no ideal options here. While the 700bn goes to violence, at least in my country I know for a fact it goes to defense, since we very explicitly have no general armed forces, only defense forces. The same is not true for Russia or the US.
But I suppose you are right in that it depends on the specific country. I’m from a progressive social democracy, the world’s happiest people multiple years in row according to some studies, so it’s easy for me to say I’d rather choose the current situation over getting Russia or US conditions here… but maybe the same is not true for all European countries. There are many, after all, and in case of Hungary, for example, I would probably feel the same as you. There wouldn’t be much of a difference, just the flavor of who gets to oppress you and your people.
But there is no choice here, in my country, in which the current social situation remains as good as it is here, and in which we also do not spend any money on defense, local as well as Europe at large.
If the choice is between oppressive leadership, I’d much rather choose my current flavor. People can be who they are here, there’s no militia silencing our voices, and while things could be better in a million different ways, they also could be so much worse, as demonstrated by the two dickswingers, Russia and USA.
In an ideal world we would not spend on violence. I agree with that. It’s a waste. It leads to people dying, especially innocents. But it’s not an ideal world. And until it is, the choice has to be between different flavors of bad, I suppose, and personally I would 100% always choose the flavor in which I feel safe, happy and supported as a gender identity and sexual minority with mental health problems and adhd. And I would hope that most would do the same.
Because the alternative is just going to be fatal for me, at least, and a lot of people like me.
Edit: And yeah, you can pick out my points and their details in many ways, but the fact that the alternative can be picked out in so many more ways, remains. It’s all relative. I don’t see it as a good option to sacrifice good, just because it is not perfect, and get an outright horrible outcome. I’d much rather just try and help things remain at least good…
Edit2: Also, to address the “everybody wants to invade you” part: The US has declared it will start expansion and assimilate parts of other sovereign countries. One of those being part of Europe… An European country is currently deep in a defense war against a nation that has also declared that letting my country gain independence was a mistake and that is listed in multiple writings of prominent leadership members as one of the next countries that will be part of Russia “again”. So I don’t think everyone wants to invade us, not by a long shot. But there are countries that have been very explicit in their want, or even need, to fucking invade us and start enrussificating us.
The fact that you aren’t even considering these things, things that are well known and plainly and openly broadcast by these dickswingers, in some cases for many decades now, just tells me that you fail to understand what it actually is like being an openly stated target of assimilation. You make it a joke, as if nobody ever wants to conquer anyone, but it’s just fucking fantasy to think that. Right now, the same country that has stated my country “is in fact” part of their country, is, in real time, fighting a war of assimilation not too far from our borders… I get that this might not be close to you, you may live somewhere far away and don’t know this, but it hits a bit different when you are actually here. I can’t even imagine what it is like for Ukraine…
I do hope you could also try and expand your point of view and gain some perspective. The world is fairly shit in terms of things like this. Pretending otherwise won’t change that. The moment you blink, the nazis and oligarchs just do what they already have told you, over and over, what they will do. And next thing you know, you are being raped in a prison for being “a deviant” and your murder is then hidden away as your peers continue to face this reality.
We either stop them and oppose their military spending
You notice that’s a luxury exclusive to one side in that conflict? This freedom of speech, even forming a vocal political opposition. There have been people trying to do exactly that in Russia, but they all have died, vanished or gone silent.
If the dictatorship takes over (for example, due to a lack of resistance), you lose these privileges and are then sent to the grinder anyways.
Julian Assange and Chelsea Manning got persecuted for exposing war crimes. The west is as much corrupted as russia, just take a look at the news reporting on the latest US oligarch
Truly a shame, but does not lead to your conclusion. If you cannot get the irony about you publicly complaining that you cannot publicly complain much like in Russia, then I’m afraid I cannot help you further.
The west is as much corrupted as russia
You did not check. Go and find some sources to confirm your claim.
- I also suggest counting how many opposition leaders sit in prison or have been recently killed in the west, preferably per capita (for about a billion people). Then I suggest comparing that to Russian figures (for 140 million people).
- After that, I suggest checking out how longer the ruling politicians have been ruling.
I claim that the west is considerably less corrupt than Russia. I offer a source too (below). I also claim that the west is an incredibly safe place to be in opposition, and that power changes hands frequently.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
“Both sides bad” is running like a disease among some leftist circles. Mostly Western leftists who have never seen Russia up close. It’s a nice excuse to do nothing.
A brilliant move from Europe.
Where was this three years ago? Europe wants to make sure every last Ukrainian man is thrown into the meat grinder.
Better late than never.
Our leaders have been too complacent, for what I think is a simple reason: It’s easier to depend on the Americans so your own national budget doesn’t take a hit and cause you to lose the next election.
Now that we’ve seen that the US is an unreliable ally and (rightfully) wants to reduce its’ own military aid spending, they’re hopefully seeing the bigger picture.
But why did Europe wait for America to bail before suddenly pulling a trillion dollars out of their pocket?
If Ukraine was supposed to win Europe should have thought about ponying up that cash a bit sooner.
Because they didn’t need to. As long as the United States was spending money on their truly vast military and was using that military capacity to defend Ukraine there was no requirement for any other the country do anything.
Now that the US has decided to become a pawn of Russia, it has become important.
They did need to. Ukraine is losing the war bigtime. They needed more weapons at the start before Russia ramped up production.
If Europe sent the weapons at the start they could have broken the stalemate. Filling the American deficit does nothing to help Ukraine win.
Because as soon as you propose spending billions of dollars on defending another country, people will generally say “but I don’t wanna pay more taxes or lose out on any comforts”, which causes you to lose your position of power in case of a democracy. It all comes down to selfishness in the end.
Why did they wait? Because if all this support started on day 1, a lot of folks would have feared nuclear retaliation and there is no way back from that.
The Russo-Ukrainian conflict is too complex to use your oversimplified perspective, and thus only useful to throw oil on the fire. There are serious nuclear threats, Putin’s unpredictable actions, it also involves many (very different) countries standing up against tyranny. The bureaucracy may be slow in its responses, but efforts are being made to ensure careful moves that prevent escalation. Labeling European leadership as bloodthirsty is misleading in my eyes; they are actively working to protect democracy.
Why would you think European leadership aiming for more dead Ukrainians? Why would they still provide financial and humanitarian support? And increase it now?
So you are saying Europe does not want Ukraine to win because then Russia uses Nukes…
Don’t forget to save some for the war against America.
Would have needed to start saving 50 years ago for that
Perhaps the best time was back then. The next best time is now.
French nuclear program: Fin!
It’s the same investment fund. I assume that’s the main reason for it’s existence. Donald Trump and his MAGA baffoons are driving America in the ground faster than a plane during his administration. They need to be ready and they will fight unlike many cowards here.
Numbers are growing in the U.S. but the time needed is also fighting the time that his administration devours media sources and telecommunication systems. Surveillance today is near insurmountable, but not yet
Eh, America would ally itself with Russia anyways. Might as well invest into weakening the Eastern front first.
The war against America will be fought by poor American SOB’s like myself before it reaches our allies.
We’re all hoping it doesn’t come to that, but the divisive nature of our current political climate is unprecedented… We’re all a day away from never speaking to certain family members again. It’s just fucking nuts what’s going on.
People like to compare us to Nazi Germany, but it’s nothing like that. Well, except Elon Musk. He’s larping as a Nazi pretty openly right now, compete with Seig Heils. That’s part of their plan to divide and conquer. Only I really think it’ll follow our old motto, and we will simply all fall.
What the tech Bros think they’re heading for is nazi Germany. But don’t forget they’re in bed with the fundamentalists. You’re actually looking at a Christian version of modern day Iran. Once musk and trump have exerted control over the population, they’ll be “taken care of” and you’ll get Vance for the next 11 years.
Removed by mod
Yeah! Down with democracy! Bring back feudalism!
Pretty sure feudal peasants were living happier than us now.
It’s laughable that you’d make such a statement.
The half that didn’t die as kids, you mean?
They weren’t.
Mostly.
ironic that you can be so anti-capitalist that you turn fascist like this.
Intellectual honesty tends not to be a primary motivator itself.
That dude posts so much so frequently, it’s extremely fishy
That dude posts so much so frequently, it’s extremely fishy.
Totally, and always the same long not engaging statements. I’d even prefer random adverts at this point, which I normally block.
Also interesting that they seem to not reply to any thing that might require a real discussion.
Well, banned from here now.
Lemmy feels increasingly filled with AI bots pushing pro-Russian anti EU narratives.
Some of it is definitely bots, but don’t discount the human factor either. Russia had an entire branch of the military dedicated to trolling the Internet at least as far back as 2015. Something tells me that hasn’t gotten smaller since then. No doubt they work in tandem with bots as well, constantly editing their output, maybe even making posts from the same accounts.
The fediverse may be small compared to the behemoths, but I don’t think we’re so small as to be ignored.
And there will be a big bunch of people that swallowed all that troll farm shit whole and is now out there, parroting the same shit and inventing their own new shit, completely willfully, without compensation. We see this with the US and MAGA. Some people just… I don’t even know what words to use here. Some people just have such hate and bitterness inside them, and are gullible enough to go with some absolute bonkers shite and run with it.
I noticed this too in the last few days and weeks. Fucking russian cunts.
Anyone downvoting should pack his bags and join the front because ukraine is running out of men
Actually, no. Ukraine has quite a couple of brigades ready to go, waiting for materiel to use. Because unlike Russia, Ukraine isn’t hurling donkeys and men with nothing but Kalashnikovs at the front.
I think democracy is a good thing, therefore I should join the Ukrainian military?
If you think democracy is a good thing you should realize that there’s none anymore and ukraine is under martial law.
Go on. Tell me about how there’s nothing democratic about Switzerland or Iceland.
Switzerland is a known tax heaven that laundry money worldwide including these of russians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Leaks
Iceland is an island with less than 300k people
Neither thing has anything to do with democracy. You claimed there are no more democracies. Please explain how Switzerland and Iceland are not democracies.
Flying squid you are picking up two irrelevant countries as switzerland and iceland because you know all the others to be corrupted as fuck. Democracy is being eroded worldwide in the same way: government are getting unlimited power and control over people and a bunch of rulers own all mass media.
Oh, the irony. You’re here, cheerleading for conscription from the comfort of your keyboard, while accusing others of armchair opinions. If Ukraine’s running out of men, maybe it’s time to question why this proxy war keeps demanding human sacrifices instead of solutions.
Blind allegiance to this endless cycle of funding and fighting doesn’t make you noble—it makes you complicit. Pack your own bags if you’re so invested, but don’t expect others to march for a game they didn’t sign up to play.
say that to the people who downvoted you buddy, i’m not team stupid
Personally I’d go if they just let me. I’m a reserve sergeant with strong will to actually do something, knowing full well I will perish there, and cry for mommy in a ditch, or something else entirely, as of yet unimaginable to me.
Defense is something I accept and will always help with if I just can, if the cause is right. Other kinds of war or violence? I’d rather go to jail than participate. In defense of gender minorities, people with mental health issues struggling as it is, when we now have great support networks and financial help guaranteeing housing, food, electricity, everything necessary, I would face the horrifying prospect of unimaginable pain and fear, desperation, so that those that do not wish to, or can’t, do not have to.
I have strength and vitality some do not have. And if the only thing standing between the peaceful, at least good enough life they (we!) now have, is the sacrifice of those just selfless enough to face horrors, I’d feel bad letting them do it without me, if and when I am capable to help.
But this is only as long as the thing we’d defend is worth defending. Our current state definitely is. I’m openly pan-sexual enby, and nobody looks at me twice. I get to work, study, participate in society just like most everyone do. If that is in danger, I won’t sit down and wait for them to come for me and my kin.
But I also don’t think anyone else should be forced to do that, unless they really do want to and understand the horrors of what it will be.
I have the benefit of military training and familiarity with guns and warfare in general (in theoretical level, though, which is still better than nothing), so I wouldn’t be able to forgive myself if I didn’t put those to use in defense of my fellow minorities often persecuted elsewhere.
But this is only as long as the thing we’d defend is worth defending.
What are you defending that is so precious to throw your live over like that? The orange man country and its mega corps oligarchs?
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/emma-goldman-preparedness-the-road-to-universal-slaughter
Definitely not. The orange man and the US in general is equal in my eyes to Russia. A bad, backwards place I would fight if it tried to thrust its diseased member into my current life and surroundings.
Instead, I’d give a lot for what I have now: The relative safety and social progress, as well as the socialist elements such as our guaranteed welfare for everyone without gotchas or requirements, the general atmosphere of acceptance towards sexual and gender minorities etc.
A lot of reasons to “throw my life away”. The life wouldn’t be worth much if I couldn’t be myself, if I couldn’t survive and thrive even when unable to work or function. So I’d rather go fighting for those as opposed to bending over to get fucked either way.
