Since Trump’s election, gun groups catering to progressives and people of color report a surge in interest as they look to defend themselves in a country that, to them, feels increasingly unstable.
Too few, too little, too late.
I hope not, but I think a lot of them are still living with the fear of yesteryear that has not updated with the times and the threat of their neighbors having it in for them, and not being as worried about the legal repercussions.
Also leftists. Also rightists.
So, basically, people from every political background are buying guns.
The warmongers win again.
While the pacifists did jack shit to stop this.
Zapp: I hate these filthy Neutrals, Kif. With enemies you know where they stand but with Neutrals, who knows? It sickens me.
Um…they’re pacifists? Maybe you mean a different word?
I think they’re blaming pacifists for not being violent
To shoot ICE in their stupid fat faces.
As they come crashing though your door.
Specifically. You can’t afford anything but the most crystal clear case of self defence.
It’s starting.
Don’t be a fool. Everyone in America has guns or access to them. It’s trivial to buy one and many on the left own them all the same as anyone else.
Like 40% of American households own guns. Most gun owners just own multiple. Leftist should either arm themselves in preparation or be prepared to be trampled on.
Thats a nice lie that left/center leaning people keep telling themselves.
The reality is that republicans by far have a higher percentage of gun owners.
If there were a fight that started today, there would be a sweep.
Then you have to remember that every force of violence in the US, LEOs, all branches of military, all support trump.
No, the difference is, you believe all the bullshit. And I’m wise enough not to.
I’m not sure you can even vocalize what you’re trying to say here.
The facts are just not in your favour.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/07/24/key-facts-about-americans-and-guns/
Key excerpt:
45% of Republicans and GOP-leaning independents say they personally own a gun, compared with 20% of Democrats and Democratic leaners.
You’ll find that all available information says similar.
Republicans have a much higher percentage of gun ownership than democrats.
It’s not just that they own more guns per individual. They have more individuals with guns.
Liberals, LGBTQ, whoever else was mentioned in this headline should have been training with guns for years at this point. The writing has been on the wall for a while.
I was anti-gun until I was 37. That’s when I realized it doesn’t matter about my political viewpoint regarding guns, the right has been using it as leverage for my entire life.
I’m 42 now. I got my first rifle when I was 38. I got my first shotgun when I was 39. I got my first pistol when I was 40. I go bi-weekly to the range.
The writer of the article should try harder to not confuse “interest” with preparation. This shit is an unwelcome use of my free time, but I’m probably a better shot than 90% of MAGA at this point.
As someone who used to create judgemental use of force firearm training simulators for law enforcement, I can tell you right now you’re likely a better shot than 90% of our police force too.
Yikes, that makes me feel uneasy. Do they not train on a regular basis?
By policy, it’s different per police organization. But overwhelmingly the biggest orgs only force training once a year. And the metrics they use to pass for accuracy and use are lower than most concealed carry courses.
…they do if you can believe it.
I thought they did too, that’s why I’m not so sure that I’m the better shot. I was thinking that I’m maybe on par with someone else that trains regularly.
Just following up from my previous answer: MOST officers only need to pass training on use of firearms once a year. It does vary per department, and some officers use their access to training and ranges to hone their skills. But MOST of them only follow the guidelines, and most guidelines only require recertifying firearm use once a year.
The writing has been on the wall for a while
I saw this coming when the tea party appeared. Moved my wife and daughters out of the US in 2015 for precisely this reason. When I lived there I owned a rifle and a shotgun, not because I thought I’d need to defend myself against criminals or immigrants, but because I thought there was a pretty good chance I’d have to defend myself against right wingers.
Concur, I saw it back then too. I wanted to leave but didn’t have the financial resources to do so at the time. Now that I have the resources, I’m too old for most places. The way I see it now is that I’m pretty much just hanging around so that my parents don’t have to outlive their children. I bought my rifle and shotgun for the same reason you had yours. I’ve been hearing threats from the right AT LEAST since the 1990s. It’s always been threats…
We are lucky. I’m Australian and lived in the US from 2005 to 2015, so it was easy for us to move. I think what really tipped my wife over the edge was going to watch our daughter’s kindergarten class Christmas concert on the day of the Sandy Hook shooting. That was the most surreal experience of my life, just typing it now still chokes me up a bit. It’s fucking sad, because there was a lot that I loved about the states.
I’ve decided on a shotgun. With buckshot you don’t have to aim, you get multiple shots, it’s inexpensive and you can hit multiple targets in unarmored areas. It’s just for home defense, I’m not sure if we should be carrying outside. We have to be careful though, life is worth saving not shooting.
Just a heads up, the whole “you don’t have to aim” is a complete myth. Shotgun spread is completely blown out of proportion. It’s somewhere around 0.5" to 1" per yard with barrel length, choke, and shot type affecting spread. Unless you’re insanely rich and live in a mansion, you’d be within 10 yards so you’d only get 5" to 10" of spread which really isn’t much especially since the pellets may not be evenly distributed within that diameter.
For anyone looking to buy a gun, educate yourself first to know what you’re getting into and go to the range consistently so you know how to use it. If you don’t do both of those, you’d be at risk of hurting yourself or someone else if ever you have to use it in a life or death situation.
I appreciate your feedback. I’ll think about it. Ar-15 was my other choice. If it was legal id buy a rocket launcher and just blow the whole house up because at that point fuck it…
AR15 is easy to shoot and aim. It’s also low recoil and weight. People should get them for home defense before getting a shotgun, you’re more likely to miss with a shotgun than an AR
Second this. Unless you’re sawing the barrel to a third, it doesn’t actually work how youd think if you never used a real shotgun.
In reality the best things about shotguns in self defence are that if you miss, you probably dont kill your neighbor. The bad part is there is very little penetration on pellets for any armored target.
You could also just use slugs which do work great for self defense, but can easily kill your neighbor.
You should’ve gone with the Zodiac method.
Pistol and a flashlight in a supportive grip. When you do it right, the “dark spot” at the center of your flashlight beam is your general point of aim. Once you build that muscle memory, it’s better than a crosshair on a TV screen.
Do stand your ground laws apply when a warrantless unidentified “federal agent” comes to your door because anyone with sense would fear for their lives?
Short answer is “It depends.”
If a masked, unidentified individual with a weapon is in your home, it will very likely apply.
Interestingly enough; this hasn’t happened yet. It’s almost like they know which places not to fuck with, even though there isn’t an official national gun registry or anything.
I mean… Amazon purchases can be tracked. I wonder if buying CLP or a boresnake gets someone put on a “do not try” list.
People have legally defended themselves in that situation, yes- but first you have to survive until your court date.
I’m surprised something like that hasn’t already happened.
One of the more telling aspects of who ICE is targeting.
No, but that shouldn’t stop people from standing their ground.
Every american should be familiar with how guns work because we have to live in a country with more guns than people. Imagine if you’ve never drove, been inside, or even seen a real car your entire life then one day you have to cross a NYC street. Its hard to be safe without the right knowledge.
Every american should be familiar with how guns work
anddd that’s why i don’t goto the USA
Yes do a gun safety course first in your home country
no because i dont hunt so i dont need to use guns.
I don’t hunt either, but shooting can be fun.
They said need.
They clearly arent interested in it for fun.
You can be performatively afraid of something you will likely never have an issue with for no other reason than a thing existing, that’s fine and your prerogative.
But most people here already know you are far less likely to even have issues with entry into the US or with the people who live here than even media is making it out. Millions of people from all continents pass in and out of the US daily. You’re in far more danger being a grade-school or high-school student in the US than a foreign traveler or visitor.
To the kiddoes who get down this far, there are 500 million citizens in the US and murder is still rare enough that it makes the news. Not always, but often. While other countries have less violent crime, broadly our whole world is at an all-time low in violence despite what your local for-profit media company wants you to think. Yes, the US has woefully outdated gun laws, but our primary problem here is fear. The same fear that makes you think the US is a violent wasteland of shootouts on every corner, that’s the same fear that makes people here cling to guns. You’re not hurting me by whinging that you will “never set foot in the US” I literally do not care, so ask yourself who you’re performing for, and if you’re just needlessly adding to the narratives of fear, and why it makes you feel good to do so. Who do you want to feel bad and why?
Yeah nah bud. You’re arresting people trying to leave your country, tourists are getting roughed up, and violence from the government is increasing.
I think your tourism deserves to decrease and you deserve to sleep in the bed you’ve made.
I agree 100% with everything you wrote here, and none of it has anything to do with the exchange I had with the other user.
Except for this:
you
I am not my government.
You was speaking in countr terms as was the your before it.
Even still, its like, there is no “we only support the non fascists” from a foreign perspective when it comes to tourism unfortunately.
I mean there is a little bit when it comes to trade, like trading with blue states, but like, its all very intertwined to where youll be funding the fascist regime.
performatively afraid
I can’t get over how this is phrased. It feels so dismissive.
That would be because I am dismissing it.
Blocked
How ever will I recover from this blow
naw thanks, i don’t think people should have a right to own a firearm. not a safe country.
I get the sentiment but most countries on Earth have armed citizens. You have effectively negated yourself from traveling across much of Asia, much of Africa, South America and several prominent European nations where citizens are armed.
No country is “safe” and you will live in misery and fear if you deny yourself the ability to travel and have new experiences because some people may or may not own weapons.
Load of bullshit from an American Exceptionalism expert.
I’ve been all over the world, people carry guns. People shoot in the air to celebrate, people keep guns on their mantles, people keep guns to defend against predators, people carry guns because there are vast, vast areas of Earth that are not patrolled by police. Are these bad people?
It’s pretty bigoted to look down on these people for the circumstances and regions they live, but yeah go ahead and lecture someone for being an American.
edit: i can clearly see by your moderation history that I shan’t be investing a shred of mental energy your way. Go ahead and troll into the void, I won’t see it.
Please take your gun apologia somewhere else.
The number one killer of children in America.
The answer is yes, you are a bad person for promoting this nonsense.
dude i never plan to leave my country, so im good. dont worry.
Sounds good, enjoy your bubble. Hope nothing there ever changes.
i will enjoy my bubble thanks. canada is the best place to live!
There are so, so many other great reasons too.
To be clear your reason is a great reason. There are just so many others, too.
oh trust me i know, i haven’t liked america for a very long time.
Good for you!
yes, yes it is :)
This is literally pathetic. Talk about being gun oppressed and loving it.
I’m not sure how you’re getting that out of what they posted. Reads more “know thine enemy” than power fantasy to me.
If know thine enemy is code for living in an oppressive gun nut culture where we lose around fifty thousand Americans to gun violence every year, then sure.
Number one killer of children in the US and the best we can muster is, “You have got to be familiar with guns because we are surrounded by them.” This is the definition of pathetic resignation.
Sorry I forgot that I can just wiggle my nose and make it go away. It’s the reality of the situation, like it or not.
Dealing with our problems isn’t easy. I guess we can just go back ignoring it. Cheers!
You can acknowledge present reality while also trying to change it. They’re not mutually exclusive.
No one can actually acknowledge what is happening though. Our entire society in the US is in denial.
Not much you can do when most people in the country already own guns. If someone points a gun at you, you’ll be wishing you had your own. This is mostly an American problem though and we’re fucked. At this point we all need guns because those psychotic fucks are coming for us daily. With how things are progressing so fast I’m just waiting for the day they show up at my door for voting Democrat in a Republican state. I’ve got my guns and I won’t go down easily.
Yeah, self defense fantasies are a mental illness bro. Love you, get some help.
I’d love to never have to own a gun. When I was 5 years old a woman put a loaded gun in my face and cocked it to threaten my parents. It’s not a fantasy, it’s a fucking NIGHTMARE. So yes, my fears are a mental illness. Thanks.
You are just one of many living in this nightmare. You know what it is like to jump for cover everytime someone shoots a gun in an urban setting? Millions of Americans get to experience this psychological abuse everyday.
I am sorry to hear your horrible experience. I have lost several people in my life to gun violence. I know women who were raped at gun point. I have had multiple guns shoved in my face growing up. Fuck guns and everyone who defends this shit show.
Lol I know exactly what it’s like to jump for cover every time someone shoots a gun, I still have to fight that instinct. There were bullet holes in the front door of my family home and on the side of the house. I was taught to lay on the ground every time we heard gun shots. When I held my first gun 5 years ago I was trembling and crying from fear of the damn thing. I LIVED THROUGH ALL OF THIS. I cannot and will not defend gun culture. When nearly the entire population has them and is willing to use them against you at a moments notice, you don’t have much of a choice. Since I am a woman, and as you pointed out I am at risk, I have more need than a man to conceal carry.
The point I’m trying to make is bitch all you want about guns in America. Call us morons for having guns, it doesn’t matter. Bitching won’t change anything. Someone has to take all the guns away before a change can be made and I’m willing to bet that’ll never happen in our lifetime. We’ll continue to be terrorized until our deaths. Might as well defend yourself if you can.
I wholeheartedly agree with everything including defending yourself. I do not agree with arming yourself, but that is just because your more likely to be injured.
Must be nice to go through life never having to worry about your personal safety. Fuck you and your privilege.
I am not a childlike, hence why I know guns are not the solution to your imaginary problems.
I didn’t say you were childlike. Use your eyes. Read again. I said you are privileged.
What’s the solution to a political party using firearms as leverage in a country that puts firearms in its governing document.
I absolutely LOVE reading these wildly naive takes. Go for it!
I implied you were childlike.
I love people who have no clue about the destruction and violence gun culture has caused us. This learned helplessness you have developed is impressive.
A fascist government takeover is imaginary? Fuck give me whatever glue you’re sniffing so I can be as dumb and ignorant as you.
Fascists thrive on violence, so if your suggesting that as a solution then you are playing right into their hands.
there are already more firearms than people in the US.
but yeah, more guns… yay.
Unless you plan to carry concealed or get a concealed carry license skip the pistol for your first gun.
If you want something for home defense that sits by the bed get a 20-gauge pump shotgun. I’ve never met anyone man woman or child that couldn’t shoot one and #3 or #4 buckshot is hard to miss with within 20 or 30 yards. You can go to almost any sporting goods store and pick one up for about $250. I like the Maverick 88.
If you want something to hunt with or just have in case of “troubles” get yourself a decent bolt-action rifle with a 3x9 scope in a popular caliber such as 308 or 270. Rifles are easier to shoot and you can use them for hunting. Once you shoot the rifle a few times and are comfortable with it you can put it away for those “troubles.”
If the US gets ripe enough you need to stack bodies you are going to want a rifle more than a pistol and if you have a shotgun or a rifle you can pick up a pistol, there will be plenty on those bodies you are stacking.
That’s my extremely qualified opinion, but with that said opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.
Good luck out there, be safe.
As someone with many years experience, I second this and highly recommend shotguns for home defense.
If you’re ready to move up to mobile defense for whatever reasons, and you’re not someone who dedicates time and money to shooting regularly, I recommend a revolver like a .38, they are simple to operate, accurate, reliable in almost any conditions, almost impossible to jam, easy to see if it’s loaded and ready to fire, and generally much easier to manage and maintain than an automatic.
Very few times in all recorded personal defense situations has anyone ever had to reload, and most of these incidents are over after just a couple rounds are fired. (It’s amazing how people with bad intentions tend to forget about their grievances after just one hole, two will usually do the trick no matter where said holes are.)
I also highly recommend anyone who takes any of this remotely seriously to take some self-defense classes, any kind of martial art, don’t get sucked down any kind of pipeline of people screaming about what style is best for what, literally anything that gets you able to use your arms and legs as defense tools. You desperately need that muscle memory so your first line of defense isn’t the deadly weapon, and so you can survive if you lose your weapon for whatever reason, and not get mentally hung up on having a gun always.
If you have the money just get an AR 15. There is a reason it’s so popular.
There could be a world ending apocalypse and you’ll still find parts and ammo. And it’s an incredibly well rounded platform that’s pretty easy to use.
you think a 12 gauge is going to be harder to find parts and ammo for?
Ignoring that a shotgun isnt nearly as useful and will rounded, yes, shotguns in general are not as ubiquitous or popular.
In 2021, 21,037,810 total firearms were available for the U.S. market, which includes firearms that were domestically produced plus those imported—minus exported firearms. Of those, 12,799,067 were handguns, 4,832,198 were rifles and 3,406,545 were shotguns.
You’re ignoring usecase, and the fact that even according to your facts, they’re super popular.
I mean that is great but im betting a large majority of shotguns are 12 gauge and use very similar parts and a less percentage of rifles are ar15. Also shotguns are about the simplest gun designs.
Also, the US Military used 5.56 ammo, so if things really go down, you know there’s a supply. Fair note: you can shoot 2.23 ammo with a 5.56 rifle, but you don’t want to put 5.56 in a 2.23.
.223 or 223
2.23 is not a thing 5.56 is the metric measurement of .224 diameter bullets which are used in both 5.56x45mm and .223.
To go deeper, a civilian .223 Remington is almost identical to the military 5.56x45mm. Both use a bullet diameter of .224 and a weight between 40 grains and 77 grains. The differences without getting super technical are in SAAMI pressures. A .223 Remington cartridge produces less pressure than the military 5.56x45mm. You can shoot both out of a rifle marked 5.56x55mm or .223 Wylde but it is not recommended that you shoot 5.56x45mm in a rifle marked .223 Remington.
.223 Remington (SAAMI MAP): 55,000 psi (≈379.2 MPa) maximum average pressure (piezo).
5.56×45 mm NATO (NATO/EPVAT service pressure): ≈ 62,366 psi (≈ 430 MPa) service pressure (piezo).
Since we’re having fun, the other difference between .223 and 5.56 is the throat length, with 5.56 being longer. Wylde not only supports the higher pressure, but also splits the difference in the chamber to account for the difference in throats.
I.e., a .223 Wylde chamber has a longer throat than a .223 Remington chamber, but a shorter one than a 5.56 NATO chamber, which allows it to accurately fire both .223 Remington and 5.56 NATO ammunition.
I’ve been told shooting .223 in a 5.56 will wear out the chamber faster… but haven’t exactly tested that.
5.56 rounds over penetrates less than 9mm and less than many different shot shells too. I like HD 9mm rounds but the AR platform for home defense is a smart choice.
And I’m not saying it’s ideal, but you’ll still take a deer down in some insane scenario where you’re hunting for food.
Ive heard even 9mm higher pressure rounds through a carbine length barrel can stop some bears. Im not saying I’d trust it to be my first choice in that situation but I’d wager if you get good enough with 5.56 there’s not much you wouldn’t be able to stop with a couple follow up shots or hunt with a good first shot.
I bought my first gun, a shotgun, two month ago for home defense. I also got some of these home defense rounds, it looks like little plates stacked up inside the shell. I guess they aren’t supposed to penatrate drywall, so they are safer to use inside a house to reduce accidental or unintentional injuries.
When I thought about buying a shotgun I looked into rock salt and other non lethal ammo, it turns out it’s illegal to load shells with rock salt. Hard to believe
Because you shouldn’t use a gun unless deadly force is warranted.
Wait you’re telling me the salt shotgun of Scrooge McDuck is real?
I got shot with salt by a farmer when I was a kid. It’s definitely real and scroogy old bastards seem to like it.
Yeah, https://www.bullseye-cartridge.com/12ga-2-3-4-rock-salt-5-pack.html it’s ammunition not the gun exactly, but it’s kinda the OG old school less than lethal round.
i dunno, i just call the cops but mabye thats just me.
When seconds count, the cops are minutes away. You do you though and good luck.
Fun way to tell everyone that you’re white, or not living in America.
actually im southern Italian/Lebanese so my skin is tanned and have been in trouble with the police before. Stop making everything about race.
Oh, so there was a comma in my comment. My assumption was right.
But what if I’m not feeling suicidal?
i dont know what that has to do with cops
And that’s what makes it clear you’re not American.
Because in numerous cases, the cops have attacked the victims when responding to a call. If you are a minority it’s even more likely. Combine that with a white attacker, even more likely.
oh never seen that before that much, ive seen some cops do some stupid shit, but it doesnt seem like a widespread issue.
Are you familiar with the expression “[the thin blue line](Are you familiar with the expression “the thin blue line” and mindset that it reinforces?)” and the mindset that it reinforces?
Are you familiar with the “warrior” training so many police go through, where they are trained to see threats from everywhere and to prioritize their own lives above others?
Are you aware that, legally, cops aren’t obligated to protect you if you aren’t in their custody?
Did you see the footage from the Uvalde school shooting?
All of these combine together to result in so many instances of police escalating tense situations instead of de-escalating those situations. It results in police shooting innocent people because they thought they saw a gun. Like I said, if you are a minority things tend to be much worse. You’re likely guilty of something in their eyes, even if the cop is a minority.
You’re very fortunate. I live in a place in the US where it’s a toss up on whether the cops will even show up. I’ve called an ambulance for it to never show up before. Unfortunately we’re on our own and have to take matters into our own hands if we expect to survive. Guns are a plague but there’s not much that can be done at this point. We must protect our families.
Following up on your comment, there’s plenty of places in the US where you don’t call the cops as a non-white person at all; since the cops have gone out and shot the brown person that called them… since you know, the cops commonly assume the brown person is the perpetrator.
Clearly, you are not in the US.
why, is there no cops in the US?
Because they almost always make the situation worse.
Big difference between having cops, and having cops that you can trust to protect you.
Also, even if for argument’s sake we assume that the police will act in your best interest when they show up, not everyone lives in a large city where you’re never more than five minutes away from a cop. The US is huge, and the vast majority of it is rural and isolated. If you live in one of those places help from police might be hours away rather than minutes. You’re on your own until they show up. If they show up at all.
I disagree on a shotgun for HD, pistols are more manueverable, easier to go through doorways, and harder to disarm. The only caveat is normal pistol rounds will over penetrate furthet than bird shot, but other types of shot can over penetrate as much as 9mm. 5.56 rounds actually overpentrate less than 9mm and some people use AR pistols, or full sized ARs, for HD because of this. You don’t want bullets flying through walls you can’t see through, and Id highly recommend agaist anything pump action especially for someone who isnt going to practice cycling the weapon.
For most people a shotgun for HD is the way to go.
For someone that knows a thing or two, I agree with you… pistol or SBR… I just don’t think that’s most people.
Most people who buy shotguns are gonna end up with a pump shotgun and that’s a big downside for anyone whos not practicing cycling the weapon because in terms of stopping power follow up shots outclass bigger bullet every time. A pump action is setting up beginners to fail at following up more than any other common HD weapon. Most semi auto shotguns cost at least double what pumps do and are more expensive than comprable pistols and even solid budget rifles. I stand by my recommendations, if someone really wants a shotgun and they’re new, insist on a semi auto, but that’s the minority.
This! The over penetration is why Shotgun is better especially for more dense areas such as apartments.
I fervently hate Trump, his cronies, and his supporters. However, buying guns is a laughable response to a serious threat.
Maybe you buy a 9mm. Maybe you buy an AR15. The US government has stealth fucking bombers. Tanks. Fighter jets. Satellites. ICBMs. Your pea-shooter is fucking useless against a government that has decided its own people are the enemy. Trump is in the midst of authorizing the military to fire on civilians. Do you think he is going to specify that they use commercially-available firearms just to keep things fair?
You know what is not useless? General strikes. Civil disobedience. Protests. Boycotts. Journalism. Do you want to hurt Trump? Sell your stocks before the bubble bursts. Don’t shop. Cancel your phone and read a newspaper. Call in sick. Organize. Collaborate. Help each other. Bring the economy to a screeching halt and the billionaires who put Trump in the white house will put his ashes in a shoebox in about 10 days.
A civilian populous that already has small arms and some ammo, will make the opening stages of a war less difficult for the side that is willing to engage with them in hand, and bring their arms into military service.
Even now, your standard gun is very valuable in the Ukrainian defense against Russia. A rifle or shotgun is useful for taking and holding ground. An artillery battery is good for blowing shit up, but it can’t take land nor interact with people that goes in a way beyond pure destruction. An armed soldier can keep bread lines in good order, prevent sabotage, scout, build fortifications, escort armor, and many more unremarkable but key functions.
On top of that, fancy gear requires severe logistic chains. A civil war in America would shatter many links. Further, the military isn’t a hive mind, many experts on both sides will go their separate ways, which inherently means that many difficulties with deploying complicated items will become much greater. A rifleman is relatively simple to train and field, while a tank or aircraft requires many manhours to train and maintain.
I recommend watching the German War Files regarding Germany’s military vehicles in WW2. Many of the issues you see there, still apply to the modern world.
The plan is never armed warfare on equal terms against the full might of the national military. It’s for Proud Boys, the Klan, Zimmerman and Rittenhouse, countless other real threats that want to see Democrats and minorities dead. It’s for the implicit threat that keeps right-wing authorities from pushing too hard.
The groups you mentioned have the implicit backing of your government. In some cases these people were pardoned by Trump himself for their various crimes. Trump is the real problem. The klan and the proud boys are gonna keep coming as long as Trump is in power. Small arms can’t fix Trump.
Also, i think you have it backwards: the implicit threat of gun-toting progressives is not going to keep the authorities at bay - it will be the excuse Trump uses to escalate. He is going to escalate anyway - I understand that - but it is harder for him to order the army to shoot a guy in a frog costume than to shoot somebody who just killed an ICE agent.
I feel like i need to emphasize that i really fucking despise MAGA. There will be a party at my house when decent Americans turn on Trump and put him in the ground. I just think that small arms fire is going to prove ineffective.
Someone should have told the Vietnamese that their guns were useless back in the 1960s. The USA had bombers, tanks, fighter jets, satellites, etc. I bet if someone would have let the Vietnamese know that their guns were useless they wouldn’t have won that whole war.
I accept your point. An insurgency can drag on for decades. Look at afghanistan for a more recent example: all that time, money, and materiel wasted for the Taliban to pop back up the instant US troops left.
Maybe progressives could drag out an insurgency long enough that MAGA will give up and hand power back to the people. Trump and his gang would have to flee the country, but i suppose it could happen. American troops had somewhere else to go: back home. Where will Trump’s millions of supporters go? I don’t think the people who pledged their lives to avenging St. Charlie have anywhere else to live.
In the meantime, though, there will be purges, bombings, terrorism, secret police, torture, surveillance, massacres, etc. The vietnamese people had to endure unbelievable horrors before they drove out the Americans. Trump has bragged, though, that if he had been in charge, the vietnam war would have ended in US victory. I wonder what he had in mind: death camps? nuclear weapons?
The responses i have had so far have not addressed the second part of my argument: that strikes, protests, and civil disobedience can be wickedly effective. Trump’s friends are making money like crazy right now - that is, some of them. The farmers hit by his tariffs? They’re mad. The ranchers who are about to see their market flooded with Argentine beef? They’re mad too. That is Trump’s greatest weakness. He promised the ultra-rich that his presidency would make them even richer. If they start to think that Trump is costing them money, his ass is grass.
I really thought about this last year, took the class and everything. In the end I decided not to get one. My reasoning is this: Having a gun and not a lot of experience in what to do with it is like playing a board game for life-and-death stakes that you have never played before.
Maybe I will regret at some point in the future, but I had trouble coming up with scenarios where I wound up thinking “Thank God I pulled my gun out, now all my problems are resolved.”
Glad you thought through and came to a well informed opinion. I own several guns, and while I believe that leftist should arm and prepare themselves, I can also respect people knowing what they’re comfortable with. Too many people want you to be an owner or anti-gun, but being well informed and coming to a logical conclusion is far better IMO.
I agree with you, if things don’t go to shit. As long as things are functioning mostly as normal, having a firearm makes you more likely to die, not less. For example, even when there’s a “good guy with a gun” who kills a violent criminal, how do the cops ID them? They can’t. They’re fairly likely to shoot them. Also, if someone else is attacking people, they’re most likely to target a person with a gun. Cops also tend to be more likely to shoot gun owners during traffic stops and other events (though this is somewhat melanin dependent.
However, if things do go to hell, it will be useful. However, in that case, obtaining a gun won’t be the hardest thing. Either you’re with a group, which has guns and hopefully also with people who know how to use them, or you can obtain one through other means. Making a molotov cocktail or other devices is pretty easy. You can use those means to get a gun, and a gun isn’t going to be enough to fight the military alone anyway. Arsenals will have to be upgraded through other means.
That’s because pulling a gun out for most things just escalates the situation.
Which is why if ICE is knocking at the door, the situation is already escalated and it’s better to die and try to take a fascist with you than go to a second location.
So what happens to my family in that situation? They get shipped off to a camp and tortured because of my decision?
Rather have ICE kill me in the comfort of my own home instead of going to a death camp I can’t find on the map.
Never go to a second location…
Which is why if ICE is knocking at the door, the situation is already escalated and it’s better to die and try to take a fascist with you than go to a second location.
I mean, after a certain point, yes. Solzhenitsyn talked about it, also I think some of the founding fathers had things to say about it. In our current situation, absolutely the fuck not. For one thing, it’ll get you killed obviously, for another thing, it’ll give them the pretext they’re looking for to start with all kinds of shit to all kinds of people that they can’t get away with right now. They are praying for something like this to happen. That’s why they play up anything which looks vaguely like it into something it isn’t.
Every day that goes by where ICE is the illegal mother fuckers and the people of the country are the innocents, is another day they lose a little more backing of the courts, the military, the city police, all kinds of stuff like that which is their pathway to power. I know it sounds like I’m just backing down from fighting back… all I am trying to say is that starting gunfights with the secret police is about like starting a fistfight with your abusive spouse: You’re not wrong. But also, you’re not going to win through that method.
Here is some extensive information about what does work after quite a lot of research: https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/126900/8008_FDTD.pdf
I mean, after a certain point, yes.
Two frogs sit in a pot of water, one turns to the other and says “were on a fire, we should leave before the water boils”
The second frog turns to the first and says “you’re being alarmist, things aren’t that bad.”
This sounds like the second frog.‡
It might be the more practical choice to keep backing away and keeping yourself and the people you care about out of the spotlight as long as possible, it’s certainly the safer choice and one that probably leads to a longer life…
You are certainly more optimistic about the future of the country than I am. I train because honestly I find it a little fun, competing with my own best times on various drills and courses. I also in recent years have come to train even harder and begun introducing LGBT friends to firearms, because I believe the country is headed toward civil war.
I’m not inviting my LGBT work friends to my range because I want them to attack ICE. I invite them and encourage them to buy their own firearm and train for self defense because I have literally heard other coworkers say, out loud to be met with nods and agreements, “any day now they’ll let us loose and I can go killin all them fs and tr***s (slurs for LGBT people)” and no end of bullshit about how “mentally ill” and “unstable” they supposedly are.
Besides, if my choices are “concentration camp v0.95” and “best case scenario being on the run after a shootout with the gestappo” then I know which choice I’m making.
You definitely have way more faith in our (metaphorical) neighbors and the system than I do. That probably a good thing, I’m a depressed pessimist with tons of anxiety about the state of the world. If more people were like me we would be like 10 years into a Civil War already or worse.
‡(frogs don’t actually sit in blowly heating water as certain movies like to say, they still will leave at some point when it gets uncomfortable)
The second frog turns to the first and says “you’re being alarmist, things aren’t that bad.”
This sounds like the second frog.‡
You gotta read what I wrote again then lol
You definitely have way more faith in our (metaphorical) neighbors and the system than I do.
Absolutely not. Actually one of the really alarming things to me is that I don’t think this country has the structures and traditions in its society anymore that would enable it to build and maintain a working technological society (let alone a working democracy). I hope I am wrong, but I actually don’t even think that the current fascism crisis is the worst thing that we’re facing. I think it is a symptom of a much deeper disease which is a lot harder to get rid of than any one leader or political faction no matter how fascistic.
if ice is raiding my house, I am already dead. the only thing I get to decide in that scenario is how long it takes and who I take with me.
as for giving them the pretext, they will create whatever pretext they feel they need. they are already trying. remember the loser who shot migrants at the (Dallas?) ice office a few back? the only thing the government (and most media) would say about it was that he was shooting at ice officers when it was clear he was targeting immigrants.
fascism does not care about legality, and it doesn’t care about pretext. if they do not fit the pretext they want in the timeline they want, they will do it themselves.
fascism does not care about legality, and it doesn’t care about pretext
Very very true. However, most of the country does. If they were already “doing it themselves” and this stuff didn’t matter, they would have arrested Pritzger, kicked Jimmy Kimmel off the air, that CBP commander in Chicago wouldn’t be showing up to court every morning, things like that. There is a reason they’re starting by focusing on vulnerable communities without much support from the rest of society, and obeying this elaborate pretense that they’re “enforcing immigration law” and pretending to stay inside those boundaries so elaborately.
I can pretty much guarantee you that if the citizens of Chicago had been obeying your advice here so far, Pritzger would have been arrested by some sort of federal agents already.
All I can really say is read the book. I know you have your way of looking at it and I’m honestly not trying to disrespect it, because I get it, but also, how many successful revolutions have you written the guidebook for? I think for Sharp that number is close to double digits now.
does most of the country care about legality and pretext? if they did we wouldn’t have the president or supreme court we do.
I’m familiar with sharps writings. he makes really good points but I think you are vastly underestimating the complexity of a revolution in a country such as united states. yes, his texts have been instrumental in may revolutions but as far as I am aware they have never been tested on such a world stage, and certainly not with the myriad of technological factors at play in the US, which changes things drastically as far as what is feasible.
I subscribe to a far more franz fanon approach, which is that nonviolence relies on your oppressors sense of humanity. if they are opressing you, their sense of humanity is so drastically different than ours that it is frivolous to try to appeal to it.
It would help if you included resources that prove that that book was the pretext for double digit successful revolutions.
That said, “There is a reason they’re starting by focusing on vulnerable communities without much support from the rest of society, and obeying this elaborate pretense that they’re “enforcing immigration law” and pretending to stay inside those boundaries so elaborately.”
Where do you think this is leading to, and the point theyre trying to take it always leads to armed resistance. Buy a gun and be safe. It’s really not even almost a chore to have a gun tucked away.
It would help if you included resources that prove that that book was the pretext for double digit successful revolutions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Dictatorship_to_Democracy
It’s known to have been directly involved in Burma, the Arab Spring, Serbia, and Angola. It’s been translated by local activists into Amharic, Arabic, Azeri, Bahasa, Belarusian, Burmese, Chin, Chinese (simplified and traditional Mandarin), Dhivehi, Farsi, French, Georgian, German, Jing Paw, Karen, Khmer, Kurdish, Kyrgyz, Nepali, Pashto, Russian, Serbian, Spanish, Tibetan, Tigrinya, Ukrainian, Uzbek, and Vietnamese. I have no idea how many of those led to it later being involved in a revolutionary attempt (let alone a successful one) in a “proof” sense. I was just telling you what I think about it.
Here’s a story: https://edition.cnn.com/2012/06/23/world/gene-sharp-revolutionary/index.html
The author is the real deal. He’s spent time in federal detention in the US, he’s spent a lot of time with people in resistance movements in these places.
I want to call your attention to this part specifically:
The Burmese were amazed by Sharp’s theories. They couldn’t believe they had been fighting and killing for 20 years when there was an alternative.
I don’t know if you can really call modern Myanmar a “success story” but to me they seem like they’re making more progress now than in 30 years of bloody armed confrontation with the military, which of course is more capable at military things.
Dang. Buying the book next time I can afford it. Thanks for sharing
Excited to get into this, thanks for elaborating
I hope your gun is securely “tucked away”. I have a kid and adding a gun to my household would make it statistically less safe.
I think it’s important to know how to safely handle guns, but in my life it’s completely unnecessary to own and maintain one. I know where I could steal a few if society collapsed, which I don’t think is likely anytime soon.
Kids aren’t in my home
Every day that goes by where ICE is the illegal mother fuckers and the people of the country are the innocents, is another day they lose a little more backing of the courts, the military, the city police, all kinds of stuff like that which is their pathway to power.
Fascist don’t care what is or isn’t illegal. You sound just like the average German citizen in the 1930’s. Tell more about all the power they are losing while continuing to do the bad things.
Read the book. It’s based on a lot of research and it’s been actively used in practice in defeating a whole lot of governments a hell of a lot more repressive than Trump’s.
Whatever the merits of the violent option, however, one point is clear. By placing confidence in violent means, one has chosen the very type of struggle with which the oppressors nearly always have superiority. The dictators are equipped to apply violence overwhelmingly. However long or briefly these democrats can continue, eventually the harsh military realities usually become inescapable. The dictators almost always have superiority in military hardware, ammunition, transportation, and the size of military forces. Despite bravery, the democrats are (almost always) no match.
The maintenance of nonviolent discipline against violent opponents facilitates the workings of the four mechanisms of change in nonviolent struggle (discussed below). Nonviolent discipline is also extremely important in the process of political jiu-jitsu. In this process the stark brutality of the regime against the clearly nonviolent actionists politically rebounds against the dictators’ position, causing dissention in their own ranks as well as fomenting support for the resisters among the general population, the regime’s usual supporters, and third parties.
Emphasis is mine, that’s the answer to your question. He actually says later on that there are circumstances where violence is needed, I couldn’t quickly find that quote, but he basically just lays out the history of where and how different types of resistance action have worked.
I realize it’s not convincing when I just quote it out like that. Read the book. There are strong reasons and historical examples for everything he’s saying in those quick summaries.
One thing about this is that it seems to labor under the assumption of a symmetrical (or near symmetrical) fight, and that is exactly the last thing that a resistance group should be doing.
The most effective strategy for a resistance group is to be as expensive a problem to deal with and as difficult to get rid of as possible. Defend the community for sure, but the real fight is against the logistics of an armed force. The more time and money they have to waste, the better. Certain kinds of paint are impossible to get off of glass, like the glass used in bulletproof windshields that would need to be completely replaced, or the kinds of clear plastic used in things like riot shields and visors. At the extreme end, there’s options like paying these fascists thugs a “visit” in the dead of night. All these human traffickers have homes to go back to at night, and if enough face repercussions, it will quickly become difficult to find people willing to stick their neck out and possibly become yet another new fountain.
All this to say, I don’t think anybody who actually knows what they’re doing or intends to do something thinks that they’re going to help form a standing army and fight the US government. Sporadic and random acts of self defense or defense of the community? Sure. Suicide by cop? I would be surprised if people weren’t thinking about that eventuality. But Rambo is not gonna happen and any violence will definitely happen alongside the peaceful protests that we’ve been seeing for months now, and not instead of them (at least, not until things get very very bad).
One thing about this is that it seems to labor under the assumption of a symmetrical (or near symmetrical) fight, and that is exactly the last thing that a resistance group should be doing.
He talks about guerilla war in parts of it.
All these human traffickers have homes to go back to at night, and if enough face repercussions, it will quickly become difficult to find people willing to stick their neck out and possibly become yet another new fountain.
The same is true of judges, Democratic congresspeople, state governors… all kinds of people. So you’re right back to the symmetrical conflict.
Gene Sharp has a lot of great points. I also recommend his book The Politics of Nonviolent Action which has a lot more detail.
However, in the end I asked myself what would Picard (of Star Trek) do and I realized he would be armed and capable and use violent resistance as a last resort.
So I bought a Mossberg 500 and am training with it once a week. I even feild strip it and put it back together. I also started training in Brazilian jiu jitsu which is a pretty fun way to get into shape. I am getting good at grappling and choking big guys out. I’m also leaning a bunch about radio.
Another book I recommend is Full Spectrum Resistance which has examples of why it helps to have both nonviolent and violent resistance.
So if you don’t feel right with a gun, I think that’s ok. As long as we are doing something productive while we can. And it doesn’t hurt to level up some skills that you can use to help your community if the unthinkable does happen.
I also started training in Brazilian jiu jitsu which is a pretty fun way to get into shape. I am getting good at grappling and choking big guys out.
Honestly everyone should take some kind of self-defense classes. I know something about it but I am horribly out of shape right now, which probably isn’t a good idea.
And it doesn’t hurt to level up some skills that you can use to help your community if the does unthinkable happen.
This is very sincerely a really good point. I might do some first aid classes and things, it does indeed seem like shit will get quite a lot wilder before it ever gets unwild again.
For almost my entire life, I never thought I’d own a gun. Now I do. You definitely need to practice with it at a range of your choosing, and keep practicing. I didn’t start carrying until after I’d been to the range a dozen times. I still don’t carry every time I go out. I don’t pretend to be any kind of expert, but I’m happy to talk about what I do know if ever you’re interested.
Something I’ve noticed: carrying makes me extremely polite. Because if I have to draw, I need to already have been doing everything right, or I’m going to prison. Even if I’m totally in the right, don’t even get charged with anything, the aftermath of such a situation would be life-changing, in a very bad way. There is no good outcome to an imminent threat to life or limb; being armed gives me the chance of choosing the least bad one.
carrying makes me extremely polite
I saved this comment from u/jlbraun about 13 years ago (would link to the source comment but fuck that site):
As a gun owner, you have to be cool-headed, moreso than the police ever have to be.
You do not start shit, act aggressively, flip the bird, roll your eyes, talk shit, or even raise your voice. To anyone. Ever.
A combat instructor (who happened to be Buddhist and a Marine) once said to me: "From now on, if no one’s life is on the line, you will lose every argument. You are always wrong. You are sorry for impinging on their day. You will apologize and apologize again. You will back the fuck down. You will put your tail between your legs. You will let them talk shit about your ladyfriend. You will let them call your mother a bitch and a whore and your dad a bastard. You have no ego. "
“You do all this because if you are the one to start a fight, by default that fight now has a gun in it, and if you start losing, you’re going to pull it and kill him. And even if you don’t go to jail because you could convince the jury that it was self-defense, you’re going to have to live with the fact that you could have saved someone’s life and yet you let your ego kill someone.”
“You are not the police, so don’t act like them. Though all of you [civilians] are better shots than the police, you do not have the training, the continuum of force policy, or a union plus free lawyers protecting you if you screw up.”
ed: He also said: “but after backing down and trying to apologize, if at any time you then feel your life or that of a loved one is in danger, put three rounds into his [cardiothoracic] vault, call the police, give a statement, go home, and sleep like a baby. You did all you could for your attacker, and he was the one that made the final decision to kill himself.”
call the police, give a statement, go home, and sleep like a baby
This is the only part I strongly disagree with
I actually have seen someone ask a lawyer about this. The answer the lawyer gave was:
- Call 911 right away
- Say you’re in a fight and you need the police, give the location, hang up
- Wait for them to arrive, cooperate. Probably best to put the gun down before they arrive. They will be twitchy, they will really want you to give a statement. Do not. Be fully cooperative and respect their desire not to get shot and to know what’s going on without saying anything. Say you want a lawyer and you’re happy to cooperate with a statement after that. Probably they will arrest you.
- Once you’re in contact with a lawyer, your statement to them can be through your lawyer. Be friendly and polite, but also, just because you didn’t do anything wrong doesn’t mean you can’t get fucked.
I modified step 2 slightly, this was from back before there were cameras everywhere so you probably need to be more mindful of that. Don’t do anything that makes you look guilty, definitely nothing that makes you look dishonest. But for fuck’s sake don’t just “give a statement” if you just killed somebody.
I was just sharing that comment to demonstrate a proper mindset and wasn’t intending it to be an actual guide anyone should follow - but you’re definitely right. A good carry permit class will cover what is recommend to do and say if you’re ever involved in an incident.
Yeah. I mean you might be fine. If the cops show up, you explain what happened and you didn’t do anything wrong, and everything checks out, you might get to go home and the detective might call you the next day just to close out the loop and you’ll be fine. But… do you want to bet the rest of your life on it working out that way?
Again, be polite. As a matter of realpolitik it is extremely important that you not fit into the “hostile suspect who just killed somebody” bubble. But, also, while you’re being polite and getting access to your lawyer as quickly as possible so you can clear the air and give you reasonable statement to them, it’s still Shut the Fuck Up Friday. You have no idea what the cops and prosecutors may decide to read into what single sentence you happened to randomly blurt out while your blood is still pounding in your ears.
Plus what if they assailant turns out to be an off duty cop or someone else connected to the violence industry?
You likely have no idea who you just killed and who’s coming to investigate it. Shut the fuck up and let a lawyer talk.
You likely have no idea who you just killed and who’s coming to investigate it
I saw a bodycam video once where some cops were attempting to speak with a woman who had signs of mental illness who was alone in the house with a small child. One of her relatives was alarmed by this situation, called the cops, and a couple cops were now trying to retrieve the child from the house calmly, without success.
The sergeant showed up, said maybe it was a fake custody situation, said maybe someone was in the country illegally, yelled at the woman who had called the police, and had everyone leave.
Once the cops left, the woman he had yelled at tried to go in the house and resolve things herself, the mentally ill woman physically attacked her, and the cops came back and long story short it all got sorted out. The sergeant actually apologized to the woman for being an “asshole” in his words. Sure. But also, the situation could easily have ended with a dead kid or the woman who called the cops getting shot or something.
Bottom line: Yes. There are plenty of good cops out there, don’t listen to Lemmy about it. But there are also plenty who are incompetent or it’s just not a good day for them. Don’t just give a goddamned statement.
100%. Holster your firearm, say where it is, allow the police to disarm you. Point out witnesses. You’ll certainly need to identify yourself with name and date of birth. Say nothing else, especially when your adrenaline is up: talk to a lawyer.
I don’t pretend to be any kind of expert, but I’m happy to talk about what I do know if ever you’re interested.
I’ve done shooting at the range a few times. I know the physical mechanics, I’m talking about knowing what to do and how to react in a situation where people are killing each other or might start killing each other. Like a lot of things, it seems straightforward until you’re in it, and then all of a sudden it really doesn’t.
Like I feel like even if I did one of those “tactical situation” training weekends or something, I wouldn’t really like that gave me anything about what I actually need. What I need is how to make the right decisions. And, like I was saying in the other comments, I don’t feel like gunfire is even really any kind of solution to what I see now as the most urgent active physical threat to my safety. If it was a mob of Proud Boys? I mean, maybe. But on the other hand I probably don’t have a mob’s worth of bullets.
Again, maybe I’m wrong in all this, maybe I will regret. It’s hard to say. Maybe I will regret staying in the country at all. Let’s see.
Like a lot of things, it seems straightforward until you’re in it, and then all of a sudden it really doesn’t.
I’ve been in a couple life or death situations in my life. One of them is a “holy shit” story. Anyone who has never been in a situation like that but thinks they know how they’ll react in one—doesn’t. You can’t predict it until you’re in it. You’ll be terrified and not thinking straight no matter how you react.
I’ve bought some snap caps (dummy rounds) so that I can practice draw, rack, aim, trigger in the house. (They don’t let you draw at the range.)
… how to react in a situation where people are killing each other or might start killing each other.
Yeah, I don’t have an answer for that one. Most people probably don’t. My logic for getting a gun was “If you find yourself in a situation where you wish you had a gun, it’s too late.” I have no expectation that I’ll need a gun anytime very soon, although the wind can change direction in a hurry. But I do have an expectation that I’ll need a gun eventually, and if that’s true, I should have one now so that I can practice with it.
But I do have an expectation that I’ll need a gun eventually, and if that’s true, I should have one now so that I can practice with it.
Yeah, I feel you on that. You’re not wrong.
It’s not like its going to help anyway. If you defend yourself from the crazies, ICE, whatever, you are just going to get shot anyway by someone else. They want that excuse. Being armed only really matters if a civil war breaks out. Its a crazy dynamic, which is why guns should be banned in the first place.
Yeah I’m pretty confident the people killed in the holocaust would disagree.
What kind of bat shit crazy analogy is that? …but I’m pretty confident the people killed in the holocaust would rather guns never existed.
Guns aren’t really what killed people in the holocaust. They would rather the fascist and ideology never existed.
Also, you know we dropped in guns to freedom fighters behind Nazi lines. It’s not a crazy analogy, you’re just stupid.
Then your analogy makes even less sense lmao I see you are that type of person, so I wont discuss anymore. Good luck out there.
No, the reason you did not buy a gun was because they would not let you because you do not have a physical address because you were living in a Van parked on the side of the road while you avoid all responsibilities for your debts that you’ve definitely got into on your own.
Better luck next time
My van was down by the river though, it’s good because you can go swimming every morning like John Quincy Adams
That sounds lovely. It also sounds like not a permanent address to get a firearm.
While I wish you the best and I hope that you enjoy swimming in the river and I am admittedly slightly jealous, don’t blame the fact that you don’t have a firearm on “I didn’t want one “
You definitely want one. Who would not want one in this current world?
I don’t want one. It’s an unnecessary expense and statistically less safe to own one. I do think we should know how to safely handle one and use it an emergency, but if we have a civil war or societal collapse I have skills to trade for one and know where I can get one within 15 minutes if it’s a surprise.
America’s relationship with guns is darkly fascinating for those of us in other ‘western’ countries. The cliche of the right-wing gun-nut is seemingly way off the mark. You guys have absolutely normalised gun ownership. It’s deeply entrenched in your culture and is married to civil liberty in a way that is alien to most other developed nations.
It seems that the state tempering gun ownership is widely viewed as an intrusive and sinister overreach, whereas for us allowing everyday people to own assault rifles etc would be viewed as a dangerous dereliction of duty by the government.
I totally get the appeal of firearms. We go “clay pigeon shooting” where I lived in the UK. It’s fun. But the idea that the average citizen could legally own a gun is wild to us.
wing everyday people to own assault rifles etc would be viewed as a dangerous dereliction of duty by the government.
The US doesn’t do that either. Very few people own assault rifles, you need a very expensive and difficult to obtain license and have since 1986. You’re falling for gun grabber propaganda.
Anyone who could pass the FBI background check and the rest of the NFA process can own pre-86 transferable machine guns. Assuming they could afford the 5 figure or more prices they tend to fetch.
An SOT (special occupational taxpayer) license would allow you to handle or build them depending on which you had, along with an FFL (federal firearms license [dealer license]).
This isn’t entirely true. Our gun laws are weird as fuck, and half of them seem designed to get around some sort of loophole or another.
To any reasonable person, a 10.5" AR-15 that looks like this:
is an assault rifle. Per US gun laws, it’s a perfectly legal “pistol.”In dozens of states including my own, you can freely purchase and own one without any sort of permit whatsoever, you just buy it.
The ar-15 is not an assault rifle. Regardless of how much cosmetic crap you throw on it, it’s semi auto. Not burst fire or full auto. It’s no more deadly than any number of wood stock semi auto hunting rifles.
The ar-15 is not an assault rifle. Regardless of how much cosmetic crap you throw on it, it’s semi auto. Not burst fire or full auto. It’s no more deadly than any number of wood stock semi auto hunting rifles.
It does most of what an assault rifle does and the part it doesn’t do is rarely used in combat because it burns through ammo too fast. So an ar-15 is for all practical purposes pretty much the same thing that soldiers use in combat and whether or not it can do full-auto is nearly irrelevant. A wood stock semi auto hunting rifle typically won’t be as efficient as an ar-15 in either handling or ammo capacity for a shooter to very easily kill lots of people.
I say this in a neutral manner, not claiming that these weapons should be banned or not, which is a philosophical question. Yes, “assault rifle” is used loosely by anti-gun people to scare but it’s also a term used narrowly by pro-gun people to defend their right to own weapons that are clearly capable of military combat and killing large numbers of people fast.
The ar-15 isn’t a military rifle. The m-16 is. The m-16 supports burst fire and full auto, the ar-15 does not. That’s what makes it an assault rifle. You’re probably confusing “assault rifle” with “assault weapon”, which was defined as a semi auto rifle that looks scary. This was on purpose so the Democrats could say “see? We’re doing something”
The m-16 supports burst fire and full auto, the ar-15 does not.
This is apparently the only significant difference between the two, and at least full auto is rarely used by regular soldiers from what I found from multiple sources. I’m not sure about burst fire, but I imagine that it’s also used in a minority of cases. I looked all of this up except burst fire before making my previous reply. I’m not confusing them, I’m making the specific point that ar-15 are for the most part the same as m-16.
Burst fire/full auto is what makes it an assault rifle. Whether we should ban the ar-15 is a separate conversation. My point is if you have strong opinions about something you should know what you’re talking about about and use proper terminology. You’re wrong when you call the ar-15 an assault rifle. That’s not good for your argument. It makes you easy to ignore.
Completely agree with your points. I own several AR-15s (that I refer to as assault rifles in long form and AR in short form) and even battle rifles and if you even walk into any gun store they would call them AR. Which they’d say means armalite rifle, except that it’s a brand name… so it would certainly seem they’re either saying Kleenex, or it’s referring to something with a more common name… just gun people think anyone saying “assault rifle” isn’t in the know or is looking to take their guns. Which is stupid.
Common parlance is changing and it’s very simple.
I don’t think the license itself is the expensive part, the guns are (because they have to be old enough to be a collector’s item to be legal for civilian ownership even with the right paperwork)
I mean, it’s terrifying. I work with someone who was recently shot through her floor (at home). She lived, but she’s been in the hospital for weeks. So she’ll be bankrupt and disabled.
It’s our second right. Number 2. Before a ton of way more important shit. It’s not going away anytime soon.
I still think it’s weird as well but I be totin’
As an American, I’m curious why you think civilians owning modern rifles made for war is wrong.
And before you respond, I want to make clear that I am intentionally loading the question to try to dissect the topic openly, without bias. Think of me as a free thinker, somebody who is open minded, possibly naive.
I want to know truly what your reasoning is, and if it can stand up to my values and understanding, and vice versa.
Guns are the number one cause of death for American children, after automobiles, and America already has a higher automobile death rate than virtually all it’s comparable peers.
Since 1999, 400,000 American children have died needlessly.
If you remove all guns, there will still be a thing that is number one.
Same with automobiles. “Needlessly” is extremely undefined. Lots of things occur that are needless or claimed to be needless.
Also what’s with that seemingly arbitrary year? Why 1999? Is that the year that the Columbine shooting happened? Guns were around before then. Why did school shootings suddenly become popular then? DID school shootings become more popular then? Can we reverse that change?
If you remove all guns, there will still be a thing that is number one.
The children who are not gunned down will not be killed by something else. It just lowers the overall death rate.
“Needlessly” is extremely undefined. Lots of things occur that are needless or claimed to be needless.
No it’s not. It’s defined in relation to the child death rates of peer countries.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2820614
Finally.
Okay, so, statistically, gun deaths in the US are strongly correlated to a distinct increase in premature death in kids.
And that statistic makes owning assault rifles wrong, because, if you remove the rifles from the populace, those deaths would go away. Yeah?
I’m so for those deaths no longer happening, but I also like having an armed population to fight off, at this point, fascism, if it ever comes to that. Is there another way, where we can have our guns and our children, too?
Is there correlation that having an armed population with assault rifles always causes school shootings? Is there evidence of it not? Switzerland seems good. Really good gun control for a militia system. I’d be really happy with moving to that. Though, I think the issue Americans would take is that it’s a government militia system and we’re supposed to defend against our own government.
But, why? Oh god… Don’t tell me this is further southern bullshit “states rights” stuff. I mean, at this point, yeah, we literally have a fascist occupation and right now is not the time to disarm.
But maybe that’s the reason. The long-standing conflict between North and South in the USA may be THE reason nobody trusts the government and everybody wants to be armed; there’s a low key cold war going on between the north and south that has never been resolved, and a side effect is that when the population is deeply stressed and unhappy, shit like school shootings happen.
The guns are a sign of non-unity.
So, fix the conflict, the guns may go away on their own over time.
But asking people to disarm is like getting the world to de-nuke. And asking people to do it during conflict is… Well, good luck. Because even if the guns don’t provide protection in all instances, it definitely helps people feel more powerful. Though, in my experience it seems to have a calming effect since the people I’ve known don’t want to kill somebody, so they deescalate or leave a situation. I’m going to assume that’s the norm, but it doesn’t change the statistical fact that school shootings are prevalent.
The issue with removing the ARs from the equation is, multifaceted, obviously. It’s a right that you don’t get back, good luck getting everybody to disarm, compensation, it’s really engrained in culture for a lot of people and you have to convince them to basically change huge aspects of their lives, their hobbies, their heritage, their values, and worldview.
Do you see any of this differently?
Yes, I see it differently. Notice how literally every single other country in the entire world doesn’t do what the US does?
No it is not. That number was an outlier during covid. It’s back to car accidents. On top of that, the stats in the child deaths include 15-19 year olds, most of which are from gang shootings, not random 5 year olds being shot.
The way the anti-gun groups do numbers is specifically designed to make people think that toddlers are being killed every 2 seconds. More children drown every year in pools than by gun deaths, yet no one is screaming to outlaw pools. At the end of the day, most don’t care that kids are dying. They care how they die.
Your pool comment is simply untrue. Drownings are way down the list https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10042524/
Yes which shows 1 to 19. A 19 year old is not a child. More kids that are actual kids, drown than from firearm deaths.
In the United States, drowning is currently a leading cause of death in children aged 1- 4 and the second leading cause of death for children between the ages of 5-14.1 There are over 4,000 fatal drownings occurring each year in the US.
They lump all gun deaths 1 to 19 into that bucket, which skews the numbers heavily. It’s literally the same shit right wing groups do to fuck with the numbers and make them look bad. Anti-gun groups do this specifically to make it seem like toddlers are being killed in droves. When in reality it’s gang violence from the top end of that age range. Which is an issue, but it’s not a gun issue, it’s a education, safety nets, jobs issue.
On top of that, the stats in the child deaths include 15-19 year olds, most of which are from gang shootings, not random 5 year olds being shot.
Yeah. So?
More children drown every year in pools than by gun deaths, yet no one is screaming to outlaw pools.
I do not understand why gun nuts cannot fathom the difference between something that has utility and can result in death, and something that serves no function other than being a point and click murder machine.
Yeah. So?
And there it is, the same disingenuous that the right uses for thier bullshit causes.
I do not understand why gun nuts cannot fathom the difference between something that has utility and can result in death, and something that serves no function other than being a point and click murder machine.
A pool has no use, you cannot use it for defense or putting food on the table. A firearm is a utility that has purpose. Fascist are literally snatching people up off the streets and you’re still arguing why no one should have firearms.
Swimming is literally the best excersize out there. A pool is useful for staying in good enough shape to actually fight.
You can do other exercises that don’t have the ability to kill children though, that’s the point.
And there it is, the same disingenuous that the right uses for thier bullshit causes.
It’s not disingenuous in any way shape or form.
You have basically said that children killed in gang shootings don’t matter. Try not to throw right wing shade around when you’re parroting their racist talking points about which people do and don’t matter.
A pool has no use, you cannot use it for defense or putting food on the table.
Lmao, bruh, it’s this niche little exercise called swimming, you might have heard of it. Try and pull your head out of your ass before pointing us to all the examples you have where ICE has been stopped by people with guns.
It’s not disingenuous in any way shape or form. You have basically said that children killed in gang shootings don’t matter. Try not to throw right wing shade around when you’re parroting their racist talking points about which people do and don’t matter.
It absolutely is.
https://www.cnn.com/2025/05/24/health/drowning-water-safety-swimming-children-wellness
Drowning is the leading cause of death in children ages 1 to 4, and after motor vehicle accidents, it is the second leading cause of death attributed to unintentional injuries among kids ages 5 to 14.
Gang violence is not a gun issue. It’s a educational, safety nets, and jobs issue. Aka social issue that doesn’t magically get corrected because you banned guns.
Also GTFO with the racist shit. I’m a minority and it’s a dog whistle for you to say “the facts don’t matter, cause it’s racist”. Shit doesn’t get better when you deflect like that. Tough conversations are required to solve tough issues.
Lmao, bruh, it’s this niche little exercise called swimming, you might have heard of it. Try and pull your head out of your ass before pointing us to all the examples you have where ICE has been stopped by people with guns.
We’re not at the start mill ICE phase yet. We still have judges blocking shit. You don’t start a civil war just because shit is getting bad.
I do not understand why gun nuts cannot fathom the difference between something that has utility and can result in death, and something that serves no function other than being a point and click murder machine.
There is obviously a lot you don’t understand, and until you do, you should probably not try to debate.
Make a relevant argument, or keep your mouth shut. No one needs to hear you talk other than you.
It is purely about selling more guns, everything else is just a convenient excuse.
America’s relationship with guns is darkly fascinating for those of us in other ‘western’ countries.
Americas relationship with guns is loony as fuck.
I support this
Welcome to America the only country where you have to worry about your toddler shooting you.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fresno-unintentional-shooting-toddler-mother/
https://abc7.com/post/gun-safety-pregnant-woman-shot-norwalk-ohio-norkwalk-news/13410862/
For added bonus soo many guns even your dog will shoot you.
The gun lobby must be excited about this headline, we just need a few more gun sales to make us safe!
I never worried about my toddler shooting me, because I kept my guns in a safe.
You know how many people have loaded guns in their house. How many people that have a rifle leaning up against the wall by their door or a loaded handgun underneath their pillow.
This is an epidemic of death, but sure you are “safe”. That is why almost everyone knows someone who has died needlessly from gun violence.
Which is why it’s a good idea keep them in a safe instead, yes.
I totally agree you should be safe with a safe, but that is not what is happening soo?
So, people should be more responsible with their firearms. Like the user you replied to is.
It is the number one killer of children now. Clearly your best thoughts and wishes aren’t working. Over a million Americans are dead in the last twenty years and all you can say is be safe?
And what’s your solution?
Door-to-door gun confiscation? That’s not a policy, it’s a declaration of war. Do you wanna be the one going around to every redneck’s house saying, “Hi, I’m from the government and I’m here to take your guns away?” And if you start a war, who do you think is gonna win: the side with guns or the side without?
Banning gun sales? Too late, they’re already too widespread. The only thing that does is lock in the current situation, where the right has guns and the left (mostly) doesn’t.
If I’m stuck in an elevator with a Nazi, best case I have a gun and he doesn’t. Next is neither of us have guns. Next is we both have guns. And worst is he has a gun and I don’t. That’s where we’re at right now. If a right-winger with 5 guns can’t buy a 6th, it doesn’t matter, but if a leftist with zero guns can’t buy one it does.
Of course, both of those options go directly against the constitution and would be impossible to implement without an impossible supermajority or stacking the Court. And if you violate procedure you delegitimize the government, which is kind of important if you’re planning to fight a civil war.
So what’s left? Ineffectual, half-assed solutions that accomplish nothing other than pissing people off and make them panic-buy more guns.
Go ahead, walk me through what you want and how you’d go about it. I’m all ears.
